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Post by Natalie on Nov 8, 2017 15:49:20 GMT -6
One of my main questions - You made the comment that Christians are the House of Israel. I'd like to hear a brief explanation of that.
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Post by thetimeoftheend on Nov 8, 2017 16:25:48 GMT -6
One of my main questions - You made the comment that Christians are the House of Israel. I'd like to hear a brief explanation of that. I'm confused by this as well as your interpretation of Rev 12:1-5, you've interpreted the woman as the church travailing, but you've interpreted the child in verse 5 as Christ. How would the early church in Roman times have given birth to Christ even the figurative sense? |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 8, 2017 16:59:57 GMT -6
I can think of three other ways that chapters might be perceived to be out of order in the second half of the book: 1. The book is written in vignette form with interludes. 2. The understanding of [lack of] sequence is incorrect. 3. The author's visions 'jump around' like Ezekiel's - they are not chronologically sequential as presented. Let her answer for herself please. Theories and claims are not evidence. She made a very clear claim that John wrote Revelation, then "encrypted" it and wrote it down again. I want to see empirical evidence for this. You said yourself she's making statements that are far outside orthodoxy. Let her prove her claims for herself. Hey socal, thanks for your reply. It appears I did not make my intent clear: I wasn't answering for her. I was disputing her assertion that that by giving three examples of alternate explanations. Sorry for the confusion. |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 8, 2017 17:17:25 GMT -6
1. Please be careful not to provoke others. 2. Please explain why you avoid Ezekiel 'at all costs' - is it because you believe he jumps about prophetically from one time/event vision to another? Inconsistent metaphors? Is chronological prophesying a requirement for prophecy? 3. Why would John need to hide his message? Notwithstanding that Revelation is, well, revealing that which was previously hidden, but prophecy by nature is cryptic. Also, unbelievers and those who are 'babes' in the faith, will find prophecy even more difficult to decipher than the rest of scripture. So no need to 'hide' anything? Lastly, if there is no confusion, why a need to hide the message? 4. Who is the 'we' and 'our' you are referring to? Israel? 5. If you believe that Isaiah is chronological, can you please explain events which would have chronologically fulfilled Isa 16, 15, 14, 13, et c? As I understand it, most students of prophecy would believe that Isaiah also 'jumps around'. 6. I believe eschatological interpretation lends itself to prophetic doctrine. So if you post an eschatological viewpoint that is 'unusual', you should expect more challenges the further away from orthodoxy you get. And from what I have read of your posts, you are quite a ways away from orthodoxy. You'll pardon members of the board here, for inquiring about your viewpoint and challenging your 'doctrine', I hope? Thanks in advance for your replies to each of my points. I stand corrected. However, I do not have time at the moment to address all of these questions but will do so later today. My statement about Ezekiel was primarily tongue and cheek. Nevertheless, I do avoid his work because I find it easier to understand the other prophetic works. The Book of Revelation was written for those who are to be enraptured to the exodus. Yes, others will gain substantial food for growth by reading it; however, its true intent is for those who are taken on the wings of the great eagle (Rev. 12:14). The great eagle is Lord Jesus and the two wings are John and the angel. Those three individuals brought about The Book of Revelation. Lord Jesus said in Matt. 24:28 "for wheresoever the carcass is there will the eagles be gathered together." They are there because that is where the great eagle, Lord Jesus, is. John and the angel are there because they are the great eagles wings. They are included in certain aspects of the rapture. Those enraptured onto the exodus are there because they have been taken in the rapture. Thus, the message is for those going on the exodus. Our prophets are the prophets of the Old Testament. Our apostles are those of the New Testament. We, the citizens of the world can see Satan's warfare all around us. In contrast to Judah that is in the land of Israel, today the Christians are the house of Israel. This is a big topic that I do not have the time to answer at this time. Isaiah is chronological in certain areas. His book is huge with 66 chapters. He has his oracles, and his historical references, however, Chapters 17, 18 and 19 are chronological. Interestingly, these are included along with the other oracles so they all may be chronological. I will look at that. I need more time to answer this question.Thank you for your words of caution. Yes my analysis is not orthodox; however, as you know, that is not the qualifying factor. The question is, is my analysis correct, and I believe it is. Okay, I think I see what you are doing: It looks like you are presenting many hypotheses for prophetic references in Revelation. I have some further questions which I hope will help us understand your hypotheses better: 1. Do you think it is possible, that by skipping Ezekiel, you may be missing some information (possibly key information) which might affect your perspectives?
2. Is it correct to say that you are drawing the conclusion that the exodus was a type of harpazo/rapture?
3. The great eagle wings passage refers to the woman, who many believe to be Israel taken to the wilderness for protection. Is your position that it is some other group of people? Who do you define Israel as?
4. There are many angels referred to in Revelation. Which one is the third individual?
5. Why is John necessary? Is the angel not powerful enough to do the job without John's help? What is his Role?
6. So you're saying that only Ch 17, 18, and 19 of Isaiah are chronological, and the preceding ones arent? Can you divide the chapters up and tell us which ones are chronological and which arent? Also which are Oracles/Prophecies and which are Historical? Thanks for taking the time to dig further... |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 8, 2017 23:10:38 GMT -6
Socialexile you make this so fun. I love the debate; however, I am not trying to lead anyone astray but on the contrary. If there is information that is available for you, and God wants you to have it, then it is your responsibility to hear me out. Not for you to have heavy ears and eyes shut (Isa. 6:10). If it were not so then you would see, and hear, and be converted to a new knowledge. Like Johnathan Livingston's Seagull, flying high above and through the mountainside into a new awakening. A new knowledge reserved for the very elect at the time of the return of our Savior, Lord Jesus. Know this, I can not be the only person to have found this new information in The Book of Revelation. There must be others. If you are the only person, what are the implications of that? Thank you for this question. I worked on The Book of Revelation from the premise that I could understand it. I would analyze a given verse, word, chapter, etc. and do my best not to cross reference outside the book. However, there were times that I was forced outside the book and one of those times was in the analysis of Chapter 12. I had been listening to Dr. J. Vernon McGee on the radio. He said that The Gospel According to John had a prologue, a body, and an epilogue. Upon hearing this I immediately surmised that Chapter 12 had a prologue, body, and an epilogue. Additionally, I believed that I could prove this by using Rev. 1:2. I looked at Verse 1:2 and was surprised to find that it references the gospel out of order; with a prologue, an epilogue, and a body. I divided the chapter into three parts. The break lines were easy to see. Then I titled the first part the prologue, the second part the epilogue, and the third part the body. I switched the body and the epilogue so that the chapter would be in its correct order, with a prologue, body and epilogue. I worked to understand the prologue and through multiple revisions was able to understand the verses. The problem was Verse 12:6. I could not place this verse securely in the order. I used every possible solution and nothing worked. Thus, my analysis of the prologue was finished with Verse 12:6 as a member with reservations. Then I began working on the body, Verses 12:12-17. I started working on verse 12:12 and found what I believed to be three parts. This necessitated that I revise the prologue to accommodate this new information. Then the prologue was out of order. That is, Verse 12:12 caused me considerable pain and suffering in the prologue. I gave up on this approach and returned the prologue to its original state and scrapped my work on Verse 12:12. Then I approached the verse from the angle that my original break lines were incorrect and moved Verse 12:12 to the epilogue. Thus the order of the chapter now was: prologue vv. 12:1-6, body vv. 12:13-17, epilogue vv. 12:7-12. I tried moving the epilogue to Chapter 19; however, it would not fit correctly. Then I moved Verse 12:6 to the epilogue and was able to find what I believed to be a summary in the chapter. Following this I found that Verses 12:6 and 12:12 were parallel in the chapter chiasmus. Then I discovered again what I believed to be three parts in Verse 12:12. However, this time these were not the same three parts as before. I isolated the second and third parts and surmised that they were the "earth" and "sea" from Verse 7:2. Since the "earth" and the "sea" from Verse 7:2 had previously been determined to be the second and third woes, then the "earth" and the "sea" in Verse 12:12 was also the second and third woes. However, there was a problem; I already knew that Verses 12:7-11 represented the second woe. Therefore, the "earth" and the "sea" in Verse 12:12 linked to the "earth" and the "sea" in Verses 16:2-3. Thus, the statement "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!" in Verse 12:12 was a reference to the third woe. Armed with this information the phrase "therefore rejoice ye heavens and ye that dwell in them" in Verse 12:12 pertained to the second woe in Verses 12:7-11. This meant that Verses 12:1-6 were the first woe. As a result of this analysis I learned that there is not a prologue, body, and epilogue, in Chapter 12; however, there are the three woes. Additionally, the exodus in Verse 12:6 is expanded upon in Verses 12:13-17. My point in sharing this story is that through diligence and research the correct analysis of The Book of Revelation is discovered. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 9, 2017 1:23:21 GMT -6
One of my main questions - You made the comment that Christians are the House of Israel. I'd like to hear a brief explanation of that. I'm confused by this as well as your interpretation of Rev 12:1-5, you've interpreted the woman as the church travailing, but you've interpreted the child in verse 5 as Christ. How would the early church in Roman times have given birth to Christ even the figurative sense? Yes, thank your for the question. I can not reference a supporting verse at this time; however, Jacob was renamed Israel and he is the father of the twelve tribes. These tribes moved into the promised land and the ten northern tribes were conquered by the Assyrians. Benjamin had merged with Judah. However, prior to the conquering of the ten northern tribes they were called Israel and the southern two tribes were called Judah. Conquered Israel was taken into the lands controlled by the Assyrians. Their descendants were mixed throughout Europe. The mantle of authority passed from Judah to Israel with the death of Christ. We know this because Israel in Europe was willing to accept Lord Jesus and Judah was not. Today, all Christians are from the tribes of Israel. They either have mixed blood from the original 12 tribes, or they are adopted in. It is simply a matter of accepting Lord Jesus as their personal Savior. Thus, the followers of Christ are from the 12 tribes of Israel. It is for that reason that the 144,000 represent the 12 tribes of Israel. It is simply a matter of assigning 12,000 men to represent each tribe. They are all Christians. When the tribes are gathered it is simply the gathering of the followers of Christ, the twelve tribes. You are very astute in your question about Rev. 12:5. The answer is found beginning in Verse 12:4. The dragon at the time of Christ's birth was Herod. He was a minion of the Roman Empire. Thus, Herod stood before the church of Christ to devour Lord Jesus as soon as he was born. Keep in mind that the formalized early church began with Peter; however, all followers of Christ belong to his Church and this includes all his followers going back to Adam. Thus, when Christ was born, his informal church had been upon the earth for four thousand years. Thus, Christ was born into his church. The opposite is also true in that Satan's followers did not begin with the Roman Empire but when Cain killed Abel. These verses are mind blowing and there is much more that begins in Verse 12:2. The formal early church was in pain, travailing from the persecution of the Roman Empire. Likewise, the latter day church will be in pain travailing from the persecution of the latter day beast, the eighth. However, "before she travailed she brought forth; before her pain came she was delivered of a man child. Who has heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion traveled she brought forth her children" (Isa. 66:7-8). Here we see that as soon as the Christians begin to be persecuted the rapture takes place. This is the rapture to the exodus as stated in Verse 12:6. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 9, 2017 1:44:54 GMT -6
boraddict , I think the larger question for me, and maybe it will help others, but very early on in this thread, you claimed you had received this information through personal revelation. Was this confirmed by witness? Anything to back this up? Forgive me if I sound incredulous, but the claim is rather sensational. You are asking about the morning that I awoke and understood that John had moved the chapters in the second half of the book. Occasionally, missionaries would come to my house from a couple of denominations. I loved them coming over and they would give their spill and some of the time was devoted to my work. At that time I was always at the computer writing and trying to tie things together. After a year and a half one of the guys said "it is time for you to join our church because we have been coming for a long time and we have taught you." I said that I was sorry and not able to join their church because it was not what I believed. Then they stopped coming and I miss them.  However, during the time that they were coming two guys from another church stopped by to find a mutual friend. I convinced them to come in so that I could share my work; although, they thought they were going to be the teacher. It was fun. When they left I forced upon them a draft copy of the Revelation Index. A very confusing and impossible to read work. The next morning when I awoke I understood that John had moved the chapters. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 9, 2017 2:33:13 GMT -6
Ok, so only a partial "rapture" which is not one at all. Do you realize this conflicts with 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5? As I understand it, in order for the saints to be enraptured on to the exodus they must meet a qualifier. This is indicated in the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25:2), that the wise were ready and the unwise were not. The number ten represents a tithe of the church. Thus, not all of the church but a tithe had an election of God to go, and of them only the wise qualified. Afterwards, the unwise prepared and called to the Lord to be included in the rapture and they were refused (Matt. 25:11-12). |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 9, 2017 4:09:15 GMT -6
1. Do you think it is possible, that by skipping Ezekiel, you may be missing some information (possibly key information) which might affect your perspectives? 2. Is it correct to say that you are drawing the conclusion that the exodus was a type of harpazo/rapture? 3. The great eagle wings passage refers to the woman, who many believe to be Israel taken to the wilderness for protection. Is your position that it is some other group of people? Who do you define Israel as? 4. There are many angels referred to in Revelation. Which one is the third individual? 5. Why is John necessary? Is the angel not powerful enough to do the job without John's help? What is his Role? 6. So you're saying that only Ch 17, 18, and 19 of Isaiah are chronological, and the preceding ones arent? Can you divide the chapters up and tell us which ones are chronological and which arent? Also which are Oracles/Prophecies and which are Historical? Thanks for taking the time to dig further... Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1162/chiastic-work-on-book-revelation#ixzz4xvGqRfxXI did not know how to reduce the size of the quote so I copy/paste the above questions from a previous posting. Thank you yardstick for these questions. 1. Years ago I decided to work in the other prophets and not Ezekiel because he often looses me. In my opinion, he is like Mozart, Picasso, and other brilliant minds that go beyond the common man. Additionally, he changed up the metaphors. Why did he do that? His work is hard enough to understand as it is without changing the metaphors. He uses Babylon to represent the United States whereas the other prophets use Egypt. If I really want to fry my brain I will study Ezekiel. 2. If I am reading your question correctly then you are referring to the exodus at the time of Moses. That exodus was a movement of people to the promised land. In our time there is a rapture to an exodus. All at once the saints are enraptured from all over the earth to one specific location here upon the earth and from there the exodus begins. As a consequence of that and the following victory over the beast, the saints celebrate by singing the song of Moses; their latter day Moses (v. 15:3). 3. In my opinion you have this right. It is the ones that have been chosen to put down the beast. A counteroffensive if you will. Included are other saints such as family members and others that the Lord has invited to come and escape the devastating tribulation. This is the tithe of the church as given in Matthew 25; but not the whole church. Israel is the followers of Christ. 4. This is a great question. There are many angels are referenced in The Book of Revelation. In Chapters 2-3 these are the leaders of the churches. In Chapters 7 and 8 the four angels represents the four judgments. In Chapter 9 the fifth angel is John himself, and the sixth angel is the 144,000. The seventh angel is the angel of Verse 1:1. He is also in Verses 10:7, 14:6, 18:1, 19:17, and many more verses. This is third individual in Verse 12:14 and he is one of the wings of the Great Eagle, Lord Jesus. 5. The seventh angel in The Book of Revelation is Michael from Dan. 12:1. It appears to be the case that he presides over the meeting in Verses 19:1-10. John is the Moses of the exodus. 6. I will look at Isaiah and give my opinion on the chronological order of the chapter as you mentioned above. However, Isaiah is not the book of my interest and as a result I have little more than a working knowledge of that book. For me Revelation is my first and only love. Except for my family of course. |
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Post by mike on Nov 9, 2017 7:04:15 GMT -6
Ok, so only a partial "rapture" which is not one at all. Do you realize this conflicts with 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5? As I understand it, in order for the saints to be enraptured on to the exodus they must meet a qualifier. This is indicated in the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25:2), that the wise were ready and the unwise were not. The number ten represents a tithe of the church. Thus, not all of the church but a tithe had an election of God to go, and of them only the wise qualified. Afterwards, the unwise prepared and called to the Lord to be included in the rapture and they were refused (Matt. 25:11-12). boraddict sorry can't agree with this here. There arent christians who are raptured and others not, that is a falsity. We are either saved or we arent, period. There is no being ready other than accepting Christ. None of us can be ready, prepared, holy enough or otherwise to be ready for the rapture. This parable is for the Jews at the time. Jesus was sent for the Jew and only the Jew until they rejected Him. (Matt 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 But Jesus replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.") There are a few articles or commentaries in here on this subject, just have to locate them. I will do some digging, perhaps SoCal is the one who shared it originally (cant remember) but the oil is not the Holy Spirit and the parable is not about awake and asleep Christians EDIT - not the one I was thinking of but its content is similar and found on the homepage Here |
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Post by klb on Nov 9, 2017 8:17:55 GMT -6
I agree with mike. The cross worked - we either accept it and are saved or we reject it and are not saved. |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 9, 2017 8:41:20 GMT -6
Your misunderstanding of Israel and the church will confuse your interpretation of Revelation, and the rest of the Bible. You have a form of replacement theology which is not what the Bible teaches.
Only using Revelation to interpret itself will confuse your interpretation of Revelation. Revelation puts in order the Prophecies of the Old Testament. You need the Old Testament if you are to study it properly.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 9, 2017 8:52:56 GMT -6
As I understand it, in order for the saints to be enraptured on to the exodus they must meet a qualifier. This is indicated in the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25:2), that the wise were ready and the unwise were not. The number ten represents a tithe of the church. Thus, not all of the church but a tithe had an election of God to go, and of them only the wise qualified. Afterwards, the unwise prepared and called to the Lord to be included in the rapture and they were refused (Matt. 25:11-12). boraddict sorry can't agree with this here. There arent christians who are raptured and others not, that is a falsity. We are either saved or we arent, period. There is no being ready other than accepting Christ. None of us can be ready, prepared, holy enough or otherwise to be ready for the rapture. This parable is for the Jews at the time. Jesus was sent for the Jew and only the Jew until they rejected Him. (Matt 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 But Jesus replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.") There are a few articles or commentaries in here on this subject, just have to locate them. I will do some digging, perhaps SoCal is the one who shared it originally (cant remember) but the oil is not the Holy Spirit and the parable is not about awake and asleep Christians EDIT - not the one I was thinking of but its content is similar and found on the homepage HereYes, I know what you mean. The qualifier is more like surviving the famine that is one of the plagues in Rev. 18:8, and surviving the civil war of Isaiah Chapter 19. Thus, the oil in the parable represents a commodity that is food, as well as being protected in the Passover. It is for this reason that the door was shut (Matt. 25:10). Those inside were protected of the Lord prior to the rapture. Isaiah tells us in 26:20 "Come my people, enter thou into thy chambers and shut thy doors about thee; hide thyself as it were for a little moment until the indignation be overpast." He is instructing us to be careful, and remain in our homes. Those who otherwise would have gone to the exodus did not heed this instruction. They left to find oil (food), and consequently were not in their homes and protected. Nevertheless, not all of the saints go to prepare for battle; only 144,000. It is the scene of Gideon and his 300 repeated over again. However, in this case it is the army of God and they go up against is 200 million (v. 9:16). It is a small rapture by comparison the the one that comes after 3.5 years. That is, the army of 144,000 is raptured and they prepare to respond to the beasts overthrow of the world. Then after they put down the beast, the saints are raptured from throughout the world, and last of all the saints are raptured off the earth. Thus, there are three raptures. A pre-tribulation rapture of the 144,000, a mid-tribulation rapture of the saints of God to Zion, and a post tribulation rapture removing the saints from the earth prior to its burning. In the case of the first rapture, many more than the 144,000 are taken. Additionally, those not taken must wait for 3.5 years, until the beast is defeated. That is what I mean by saying "they were refused." They missed the first rapture. |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 9, 2017 9:12:38 GMT -6
Ok, so only a partial "rapture" which is not one at all. Do you realize this conflicts with 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5? As I understand it, in order for the saints to be enraptured on to the exodus they must meet a qualifier. This is indicated in the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25:2), that the wise were ready and the unwise were not. The number ten represents a tithe of the church. Thus, not all of the church but a tithe had an election of God to go, and of them only the wise qualified. Afterwards, the unwise prepared and called to the Lord to be included in the rapture and they were refused (Matt. 25:11-12). The Parable of the Ten Virgins is a midrash teaching by Jesus on Song of Solomon, primarily chapters 3 and 5. It isn't about those in the church (which didn't exist yet) who had more faithful works than others. It's about those who believed in Christ and those who didn't. SoS 1-4 is about those who believe (Jews and Gentiles), who are raptured; SoS 5-8 is about those who didn't believe (the Jews) who missed the Messiah and face the 70th Week. The oil represents the Holy Spirit, and is given to those who believe in abundance. Matthew is written to the Jews to testify of Christ as their King and Messiah. It is not to be applied to believing Gentiles, of which the offer of salvation wasn't given yet until the time of Acts 10. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 9, 2017 9:13:59 GMT -6
Your misunderstanding of Israel and the church will confuse your interpretation of Revelation, and the rest of the Bible. You have a form of replacement theology which is not what the Bible teaches. Only using Revelation to interpret itself will confuse your interpretation of Revelation. Revelation puts in order the Prophecies of the Old Testament. You need the Old Testament if you are to study it properly. The reason that I restricted myself to The Book of Revelation was in my analysis of Verses 22:18-19, I believed it to be saying to find the prophecy then one should not add to The Book of Revelation. That is, if one cross references into the other books then the prophecy will not be found. There were however occasions that I was forced into the works of the New Testament as well as the Old Testament. For instance in understanding the testimony of Jesus I had to go to John 21:22-23. Nevertheless, if I could find the information inside the book I restricted myself to that. The testimony of Jesus in Verses like 1:2 and 19:10 are referencing John's promise that he would live until Lord Jesus returns. He will eventually die the physical death. |
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