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Post by Gary on Nov 13, 2017 14:00:41 GMT -6
Here is my article that discusses all three views of hell if anyone is interested: www.unsealed.org/2016/11/conditionalism-vs-eternal-torment-vs.htmlAs KJS showed above, our "core doctrines" would allow for this discussion, so please feel free. If I could just add one thing: My study of Scripture has led me from eternal torment to conditionalism to universal reconciliation and then finally back to conditionalism. The study has given me some insight into the debate the main voices out there (Edward Fudge, Tentmaker.org, etc). So with that said, I was surprised to learn that a number of early Christians were universal reconciliationists (e.g., Origen), but for the discussion of this topic it is critically important to clearly distinguish between universalism (definite heresy) and universal reconciliation (not definite heresy). The former teaches that all paths lead to God and rejects the exclusive nature of salvation through Christ alone. The latter teaches that salvation is through Christ alone, but all will ultimately come to faith in Him either in this life or the next. I have encountered some U.R. teachers who seem to have a solid grasp of the gospel. I've encountered others who seem to be flirting with true universalism (e.g., Rob Bell) or a rejection of sola fide. So I just urge caution, that's all. Blessings.
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Post by domagb on Dec 6, 2017 19:35:28 GMT -6
www.gospel-kingdom.com/pb/wp_0639ac5a/wp_0639ac5a.htmlThe Lake of FireAn Answer to Universalism There is a growing debate amongst christians, many are falling for this heresy, that everyone will be saved. Some universalists even claim satan and the demons will be saved. The Bible tells us that false doctrine will be taught in the last days. 1 Tim 4: 1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; This scripture could be used alone to show that the Universalists are wrong. The verse says the latter times will have new demonic doctrines. Since it is historic that the church believes in eternal judgment for over a millennia, then their doctrine is new and fits the verse above. For it is new doctrines which that verse claims is demonic. 2 Tim 4: 3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
It is interesting this scripture says "fables". For many Universalists claim Luke 16 is a parable, a fable. Let's look at it: Luke 16: 19: There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21: And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25: But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26: And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27: Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29: Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30: And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31: And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
This verse disputes any notion that death brings unconsciousness. They would claim this is a parable. But Jesus never used names in parables. He also tells us when He is speaking in a parable: Mt:13:3: And he spake many things unto them in parables... Mt:21:33: Hear another parable... Mt:22:1: And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, Mk:3:23: And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables... Mk:4:2: And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, Mk:12:1: And he began to speak unto them by parables... Lk:5:36: And he spake also a parable unto them... Lk:6:39: And he spake a parable unto them... Lk:8:4: ... he spake by a parable: Lk:12:16: And he spake a parable unto them, saying... Lk:13:6: He spake also this parable... Lk:14:7: And he put forth a parable... Lk:15:3: And he spake this parable unto them, saying, Lk:18:1: And he spake a parable... Lk:19:11: ... he added and spake a parable... Lk:20:9: Then began he to speak to the people this parable... Lk:21:29: And he spake to them a parable... Jn:10:6: This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
So, as you can see, many Universalists have indeed turned to fables for their doctrines, by making this Luke 16 passage a parable. There are several important things about interpreting/understanding scripture. One is that we must take scripture literally and this is the case here. There are times when we do not, and most (if not all) of these times, the Bible tells us it is not literal, by declaring it symbolic or a parable, or by some other method. I discuss in more detail how to understand and interpret scripture here: gospel-kingdom.com/pb/wp_08c542c2/wp_08c542c2.htmlHere is a favorite quote: "About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition." Sir Isaac Newton 1642-1727 One problem in the church is the extreme folks will go to when they refute Universalism. Universalism found some valid holes in christian theology. They discovered that all creation will be brought to God. However, their conclusions of this truth are wrong. Of which I will show shortly, down further. Let's look at the verses that the Universalists like to preach on: Rom 5: 18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Universalists claim Jesus died for all. Just as humanity died in Adam. This is absolutely true. But this gift must be received. In truth, those who go to hell or the Lake of Fire, don't go for sinning, but for their refusal to accept the gift of salvation by Jesus, because the price of their sin has been paid. Since they have rejected Christ, but they are still paid for, the Father takes them. 1 Cor 15: 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 27: For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28: And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Yes, Jesus will subdue all things. But this doesn't mean willingly. Some will be forced into submission, into God's wrath. Which I will discuss further down the page. Col 1: 19: For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Yes, God will reconcile all things. As I said above, some will be unwilling participants. 1 Tim 2: 4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Yes, God wants all to be saved, but He also gives them free will to say no. 1 Tim 4: 10: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The secret to this verse, is the word "specially". All will be brought to God, but the special ones, will be going to heaven, the others in His wrath. Eph 1: 10: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
It is through Christ's work all things will come back to God. Some forcibly against their will into the wrath of God. Phil 2: 9: Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11: And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
One can see a demonstration of this happening unwillingly in the christian movie, "The Omega Code 2: Megiddo". The christian church for years has preached the fate of the unbelievers will be eternal absence from the presence of God and the Universalists see correctly this is wrong. But the Universalists incorrectly believe that all will turn to God or be made righteous. Both are untrue. I will now show how all creation, specifically the unbelievers and demons, will come into God. This is done, because the Lake of Fire is God. It is His wrath in full measure. I discuss the judgment of the unfaithful or carnal believers into His partial wrath here: gospel-kingdom.com/pb/wp_e6e61993/wp_e6e61993.htmlLet's look at some scriptures showing God is fire, and specifically part of God is the Lake of Fire: Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deuteronomy 5:24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire...
Deuteronomy 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them... Psalms 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Ezekiel 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath...
2 Thess 1: 7: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8: In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
What is concluded from these scriptures: 1. God is fire (at least in part) 2. He can speak from His fire 3. The wicked will be punished in the presence of God and in His Fire, which thus are the same thing 4. This Fire of God is also part of His Glory 5. This Fire is His Wrath, and the Lake of Fire is His Full wrath We can easily see that God's presence is fire. And we see that the Lake of Fire is God's wrath. God's wrath is God's presence. But those who are judged unto eternal torment will enter this, while those saved will enter His love. Both are equally God: Love and Fire. I know many christians don't want to believe the Lake of Fire is part of God, but if it is not, then won't there be a place in existence that has not been put inside of God? Then do not the Universalists have a valid point in the verses I shared above? The Bible is clear ALL creation and all things will be put in God. It's just that some folks think it means all will be in heaven, heaven is not the only place in God, so is His eternal judgment of wrath: 2 Thess 1: Darby: 9: who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, LITV: 9 who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His strength,"
And the clearest version of this verse yet: Jubilee 9 who shall be punished with eternal destruction by the presence of the Lord and by the glory of his power,
I just discovered this Jubilee version, while making this page. I believed it to be "by" His presence before I ever saw that version. It is His presence and His glory that will perform the eternal destruction. Destruction is eternal, thus they will never be undone (completely destroyed). The Lake of Fire is God.
Right now, the unrighteous are in Hell. Hell is a prison, it is not God. At judgment day they will be taken out and judged. Then they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Rev 20: 10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 7, 2017 8:05:57 GMT -6
It sure seems to me like the lie of universalism--the idea that everyone goes to be with the Lord in heaven when they die--is in full bloom in these last days. The Pope claims we are all children of God. According to the Word of God, that is a flat out lie. To as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to BECOME children of God. And to those who believe, He gives us the Spirit of Adoption. If we were all already children of God (and we are not according to the Bible), then why would anyone need to become a child of God or receive a Spirit of adoption? Kids who are already part of the family don't need to be adopted. The message of universalism preaches really well at an unbeliever's funeral, but it is tragically and with eternal consequences the satanic creation of a soul-numbing ointment that soothes for 70, or if by strength, 80 years, only to then wear off forever. Abba Father, protect us from deception in these final hours, and stir within our hearts by Your Holy Spirit a deep love for Truth, in the matchless Name of Yeshua we ask..and all God's people said, "Amen." Exactly... totally agree. All must receive the Lord, including the Jews... No one is different or special.. ALL must choose the Messiah for their sins. for all of us are sinners. Good post But why then do Christians substitute Judiasm into Christianity as if they are a special group according to their bloodlines, when all must receive the Lord. ?? Interesting question...
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Post by socalexile on Dec 16, 2017 10:03:34 GMT -6
I'll put out one thing about this subject: While Universalism is wrong, the universalist that looks to the blood of Jesus for their assurance of salvation is in a much better position than the one who isn't a universalist, but looks to their own works for assurance of salvation - which isn't assurance at all, but pride.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 16, 2017 16:27:14 GMT -6
so true! The one who believes (has FAITH) in the blood of Jesus (Gospel, The one and only Redeemer) has that promise of eternal life. And if they are witnessing to one that Jesus is the only way to LIFE by your Faith in Him they are not being heretics in my mind, regardless if they are interpreting what happens on the "other side" incorrectly. In looking at what words are being used to define a doctrinal position of what happens after we die, we have these very basis "isms" mentioned here: Eternal Tormentism, Conditonalism & Universalism. Looking at the start of the thread, kjs was replying to wm35, stating there are various forms of Universalism. For this thread, are we debating those general Universalists or the "universalist" who believes God's Plan is eventual restoration? That through His Son, He will restore all and everything the way it was before the Fall of Man, the Sin, the Big Apple Eating event. In wm35 case, for sure it is heresy to say that there is more than one way to heaven, implying belief in another god will get you there, or good works gets you there etc. I am liking the word Restoration and even think the word Reconciliation are better choices because it lets the reader know that we are still talking about the long term plan of the One and Only True God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, and their Helper, the Holy Spirit. A Restorationist is still A Christian, just like a Luthern or a Baptist claim to be. From what I am learning, the idea of Restoration is not new. In fact, it was considered before Augustine. Here is from wikipedia: In what I am learning it seems the reason this is a topic of debate has to do with understanding the true meaning of Hell. Taking from this same wikipedia site, there is referencing to the original greek words that were mistranslated or mis-used: again, from wikipedia on CU And one final thought: the word Heaven. Are we using that word correctly? I mean, isn't Jesus going to come down to earth and reign here 1000 years? arent we going to be with him for that, here on earth? and after that, isn't God going to create a new heaven and a new earth? just sayin.'
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Post by kjs on Dec 20, 2017 14:17:49 GMT -6
1 Tim 4: 10: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The secret to this verse, is the word "specially". All will be brought to God, but the special ones, will be going to heaven, the others in His wrath. I do not think any version of Universalism that I have seen so far -- are correct.... so will not be debating them.... However, when I see verses quoted like above (1 Tim 4) -- I will challenge any interpretation that I believe to be in error. I have an old thread out there called Especially (see it here unsealed.boards.net/thread/236/especially ) and I cover all the verses which use the word "especially" of which I Tim 4:10 is simply one of them.... Whatever, this verse is suppose to mean -- we do KNOW that the especially is INCLUSIVE to both sides of the condition... So both sets in this verse "All Men" and "All who Believe" -- are ALL SAVED -- No, the interpretation above (others to His wrath) ... is incorrect ..... because going into His wrath is NOT being saved..... What it does actually mean -- still unclear on --- cause the various translators even cannot decided the proper phrasing 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. (ESV) 10 For therefor we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (KJ21) 10 We work and struggle for this: “Our hope is set on the living God, who is the savior of all people, especially those who believe.” (CEB)
This might be one of those "time dimension" questions.....
You know like "I am Being Saved" "I am Saved" "I will be Saved"
Each of the above statements are "TRUE" but apply to different portions of our life's....
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 20, 2017 19:26:10 GMT -6
I had a whole thing kjs here, that I deleted because I went to your link. I get what you mean by "inclusiveness"
What I am wondering is, are you saying that you are discovering evidences for yourself (certain scriptures are just on your heart) of some challenges to your historic understanding of Heaven and Hell?
My question, and you brought it up in your link, is Wrath the same as Death?
If one ends up suffering God's Wrath (because of Unbelief, are we A) talking about the tribulation wrath? or B) Lake of Fire wrath? and then my final question is, is anyone capable of being saved (having life & in the presence of God) after suffering the wrath of the tribulation? if so what about during the Millenial reign?
kjs your post in this current thread read like you were not thinking ALL are saved, but when I went to your link, it appears you are challenging yourself and finding that there is more to happen with God's plan from Wrath onwards...
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Post by Natalie on Dec 20, 2017 19:33:53 GMT -6
I guess I had always considered it as He is the savior of all men being that salvation is offered to everyone not just a select group, but He is the savior of those that believe.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 19:40:15 GMT -6
The beauty here is that we do not need to wrestle too much with the exact meaning of one verse because we have a tremendous wealth of many other verses that confirm the very plane reading of this verse - that He is the savior of all men. The vast amount of other scripture clarifies the meaning of 1 Tim 4:10. Praise God for actually being willing and able to accomplish His stated purpose for coming to die in the first place! That the world through Him might be saved! (John 3) For more information, please see The Restoration of All Things thread.
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Post by domagb on Dec 22, 2017 0:29:34 GMT -6
1 Tim 4: 10: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The secret to this verse, is the word "specially". All will be brought to God, but the special ones, will be going to heaven, the others in His wrath. I do not think any version of Universalism that I have seen so far -- are correct.... so will not be debating them.... However, when I see verses quoted like above (1 Tim 4) -- I will challenge any interpretation that I believe to be in error. I have an old thread out there called Especially (see it here unsealed.boards.net/thread/236/especially ) and I cover all the verses which use the word "especially" of which I Tim 4:10 is simply one of them.... Whatever, this verse is suppose to mean -- we do KNOW that the especially is INCLUSIVE to both sides of the condition... So both sets in this verse "All Men" and "All who Believe" -- are ALL SAVED -- No, the interpretation above (others to His wrath) ... is incorrect ..... because going into His wrath is NOT being saved..... What it does actually mean -- still unclear on --- cause the various translators even cannot decided the proper phrasing 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. (ESV) 10 For therefor we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (KJ21) 10 We work and struggle for this: “Our hope is set on the living God, who is the savior of all people, especially those who believe.” (CEB)
This might be one of those "time dimension" questions.....
You know like "I am Being Saved" "I am Saved" "I will be Saved"
Each of the above statements are "TRUE" but apply to different portions of our life's....
What is the most basic idea of salvation? When Adam sinned, all creation became separated from God. Thus being unified with God is salvation. It might be the most basic salvation, and nothing compared to a more advanced salvation. Therefore when the ungodly are put into the Wrath of God, which is God Himself, they are finding themselves in their Creator. Now the conditions of that situation may not be pleasant, but they are in God, and thus the most basic level of salvation has been complete. "Saved from what?" the skeptic might ask. Saved from the separation from God by Adam's sin. This cannot be denied, if indeed the wrath of God is God.
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Post by kjs on Dec 22, 2017 15:45:26 GMT -6
Most people take the phrase "savior of all humans" --- simply that he has the potential to be the savior.....
I am leaning more into the side that He Is the savior ... We simply do not understand the complete meaning at this time. For example, there might be a Plan C which brings people to salvation - outside of what Paul has revealed for us.
but I do definitely believe the salvation being talked about here is being Saved from God's wrath
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