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Post by mike on Jan 5, 2018 22:52:08 GMT -6
1Thes 4:16:17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You lost me here. Raptured to service meaning? In what form? The verse clearly states meet the Lord in the air. How do we do that and ever be with him yet not be in heaven?
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Jan 5, 2018 23:15:53 GMT -6
I’ll try and answer that.
Raptured to service: to minister to those in tribulation. We’ll have our glorified bodies and will be serving those on earth.
We’ll be out of space/time just like when Christ ascended and showed us He wasn’t confined to this earthly space/time. And as stated elsewhere and alluded to before I’m these threads/what Christ told us, the kingdom of heaven is all around us. (Different dimensions?)
Ezekiel 44 is showing this picture quite well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 23:48:01 GMT -6
1Thes 4:16:17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.You lost me here. Raptured to service meaning? In what form? The verse clearly states meet the Lord in the air. How do we do that and ever be with him yet not be in heaven? mike, I did a post on 1 Thes 4 a couple posts ago. Here is the link. It might help. But also, grandpaskitzo ’s answer is good. This verse specifically does not say we are going to heaven. This is one of those attachments we have made and heard so many times that we just assume it says that when it actually says the opposite. It says that the Lord will descend from heaven. Then we will meet the Lord in the air - not heaven. The air is part of earth. And the air starts as soon as the ground stops. We don't know how high in the air. But once we meet Him we are not simply going to hang out in the air. We will go to our location to join the dead, the living, and Jesus into one. We will ever be with the Lord because we will become one body with Him. Now, as a twist, heaven is all around and within us. So technically, we will be able to move in and out of heaven at will. So we will be in heaven and on earth. This will make more sense once I cover Eze. 44. The only change I would make to grandpaskitzo’s answer is his reference to tribulation. Because of the connections that word has, I try to avoid it. The service we will be called to is the setting up of His kingdom on earth! Preparing and building the administration, ministering to those outside the kingdom. Ministering to the Lord Himself. There will be much work to be done. Please let me know if that helps. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 0:09:24 GMT -6
Sk, this sentence is hard for me to grasp. Can you say it in another way? For some reason I am getting confused on it..kinda get it then I dont...might be where your dash is or lack of a comma or something... help me out to understand this part particularly... thanks, and wow, once again... blessings! If we look at 2 Thes 2, it says that the man of lawlessness "takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God." We can't hear that without attaching it to the "AntiChrist" sitting in a man made temple. But Paul does not call it the temple of man, or the temple of Jerusalem, or the Jewish temple. He calls it the temple of God. There is only one place that God considers His temple on earth - us.
Act 17:24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;
1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Therefore the only place the man of lawlessness can be revealed is within us. We are the temple, within us lies the beast. This beast must be destroyed by the brightness of His coming. We also work toward the destruction of this man of lawlessness every time we say yes to God and walk in obedience to our faith. But many have not or do not walk by faith. A significant part of Christianity is signed onto the Jerusalem/Judah/Esau bandwagon. The son of perdition (Judas figure) is within them and must be revealed. The man of lawlessness is not an actual person that actually sits in a temple somewhere - that place would never be the temple of God. God destroyed the temple and rebuilt it within His people. Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
Joh 2:20 The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
Joh 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
This is why people who think they know and serve the Lord will hear this: Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
This is not about being good. This is about walking by the spirit and doing and saying what we hear from the Father. The alternative is lawlessness. The vast majority of Christianity has cast out the law not knowing that Christ did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. We follow the spiritual nature of the law - which is walking by faith and denying our flesh. This is a tricky balance and I feel like a thread on walking by the spirit is a good idea. Does that help in that area? I will split off the apostasy question in a different post. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 0:26:13 GMT -6
thanks, and wow, once again... a note on this word apostacy. You already mentioned it is a word for divorce (saw those verses in Matt), but there are those who have looked at it as "departure" in the sense of leaving a space, I think. Have you come across this and do you have thoughts on this? blessings! The feminine gender of this word, apostasia - means forsake. It is an active rejection of an existing truth. The neuter gender of this word, apostasion - means divorce - or more particularily, a formal statement or writ of divorcement. So a person could make the argument that it means departure. But not departure in the sense of - we are leaving. But rather departure in the sense of - we are no longer in agreement with this thing that we used to be part of. It is not a physical departure - it is a legal/mental/psychological departure. I think those that see this as a reference to a rapture are reaching. It would also make the message in this passage paradoxical. - The rapture can't happen until after the rapture? Please let me know if that answer this question. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 0:41:32 GMT -6
I am bringing up something that I brought up a couple months ago. It is still as relevant as it was then. Here is the original post if you are interested. But you needn't go there. I am refreshing this here, because now, you all might have a better context with which to pray this. In light of barbiosheepgirl 's recent question about the man of lawlessness. Please take a look at the prayer we need to be praying. Now when I say pray this, I mean pray the spirit of this prayer. Not the letter of it. And only do this if the spirit leads you. Now Daniel was praying about physical Jerusalem - but we are praying about the City He is building of us. Daniel represents the Sons of God. Daniel was giving us the model prayer for becoming free of Babylon. If we really want to see freedom? If we really want rapture? Then this is our prayer, because God will glorify His name and is looking for a repentant people who will walk according to His voice and say Amen! Please read this prayer and understand the spirit of each verse. Then follow the voice of the Father. This is not a one time praying. This is a spiritual mindset. We should have this mindset daily - moment by moment.
Amen!
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Post by mike on Jan 6, 2018 8:12:09 GMT -6
Amen to that! Help me Lord to cleanse my mind in your Word by your Spirit
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Jan 6, 2018 10:09:17 GMT -6
thanks, and wow, once again... a note on this word apostacy. You already mentioned it is a word for divorce (saw those verses in Matt), but there are those who have looked at it as "departure" in the sense of leaving a space, I think. Have you come across this and do you have thoughts on this? blessings! The feminine gender of this word, apostasia - means forsake. It is an active rejection of an existing truth. The neuter gender of this word, apostasion - means divorce - or more particularily, a formal statement or writ of divorcement. So a person could make the argument that it means departure. But not departure in the sense of - we are leaving. But rather departure in the sense of - we are no longer in agreement with this thing that we used to be part of. It is not a physical departure - it is a legal/mental/psychological departure. I think those that see this as a reference to a rapture are reaching. It would also make the message in this passage paradoxical. - The rapture can't happen until after the rapture? Please let me know if that answer this question. Considering this is all one giant legal battle over our souls, you could argue that the ‘departure’ is the final sign off of the legal documents that binds us to this physical prison away from God. Not until after that legal issue is cleared up can we finally be raptured and physically depart. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 6, 2018 17:47:40 GMT -6
SK, I have been told that the Day of the Lord is when He sets foot down at the end of the 7 year trib.. see...there are so many folks that compartmentalize the rapture and the 2nd coming, one says Thes is for the rapture, matt 24 is for the jews...
Do not let any say the Lord has come unless the rapture happens first is what I have been coached..
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 6, 2018 20:10:09 GMT -6
SK, I have been told that the Day of the Lord is when He sets foot down at the end of the 7 year trib.. see...there are so many folks that compartmentalize the rapture and the 2nd coming, one says Thes is for the rapture, matt 24 is for the jews... Do not let any say the Lord has come unless the rapture happens first is what I have been coached.. I have been looking back to a lot of common or popular verses supporting various mainstream theories and am finding new meaning behind them. Not reading into them, but really clearing my mind of the common theories that have been taught with them and looking with a mindset of restoration, and I am becoming quiet surprised  Finding things that are not there and have been added as well as little joys that have been there and overlooked. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 20:44:18 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , Matthew 24 is speaking about 3 different situations. The disciples asked Jesus three different questions. Some of it was for the Jews and Christians living in Jerusalem at that time. Some of it is for those alive when He returns. Some of it concerns the end of the age. Most people want to lump it all together in one timeframe and therefore it makes it difficult for them to figure out what it means. As far as the 2 Thes 2 passage, I have heard, and understand, the view that you are expressing. I don't see it as a valid interpretation of apostasy. I also don't think it addresses the essence of this passage. But for people who are trying to find a way to have a rapture take place before the first resurrection, this is one of the ways they try to do it. Paul equates the day of Christ = the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ + Our gathering together onto Him. If this is not the rapture, then why isn't Paul talking to them about missing the rapture instead of an event that happens a supposed 7 years later? Also, if Paul is talking about an event that happens after the tribulation, by saying that 2 things have to happen first. Why would he also not say, oh, and a bunch of other stuff will happen, too? Why only reference the two items he did? Like cwood85 just said, we have our traditional teachings so engrained that we don't see the scriptures as written - we see them through our reshaped prism. We have to try hard to step outside our mind and listen with our spirit so that we can be retrained. I'm in the same boat! |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 6, 2018 21:59:32 GMT -6
SK, I reread your study of the 70 weeks. This is so important to understand in the way you are presenting it. It seems to be the only way to allow Revelation to work (make sense). Get the 7th week or 7 year tribulation pulled of the clipboard, crumple up that piece of note paper and throw it in the garbage. Start over. Daniel's 70 weeks has nothing to do with 2 Thes 2...I see that now. I also have to reread even if I think I get it. My understanding is like a crease in a pair of pants that I am trying to iron out but the crease won't go away...
sisterly hugs,
barbio
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Post by Natalie on Jan 7, 2018 9:51:28 GMT -6
I am home this morning with a child who isn't feeling well, so I have time to think and study.
I am reading through 1 and 2 Thes. I have questions about 2 Thes 2:9-10. It says that "the coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
So, how can the "man of lawlessness" be within a believer, when it says that it is among those who perish? And God then sends them a delusion because they "did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2:12)
I'm also reading through Genesis and wonder what you make of God's everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants. Is the covenant no longer in effect because they rejected Christ? Even though Abraham was asleep when God walked between the animals?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 7, 2018 11:11:31 GMT -6
Hi Natalie! I am doing what you are doing too. Going over all the scriptures that have been the focus of rapture/endtimes/tribulation etc..
Let me take a stab at this to see if I am also getting the understanding that I think I have based on what SK has been teaching. We know its not about SK but Hearing God and understanding His Plan for All, and understanding His Laws thru which He has been operating all along..
the lawless one is coming among those who perish...
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
2Thes 2..."because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."
Those not walking in the Faith of Jesus, Faith in His work on the cross. There are many who claim to be Christian but have never received the gift of the Holy Spirit. God calls us and those that answer that call receive that gift..as far as I am aware the only work we must do is to receive this Gift of Grace by putting full Faith in Him. Do nothing of the flesh, die to your fleshly self..
I do believe that those that have the faith of the size of a mustard seed would be counted as righteous. Some only receive the gift on their death bed, others walk in it their entire life..but once your eyes are opened to who Jesus is and learn about God by this Pentacostal Walk (being led by the Holy Spirit), it truly becomes more difficult not to walk in the path of destruction, in your fleshly ways. Some run this race faster than others, some are crawling to the finish line with their faith, but God know their heart.
the questions are: if I stumble and do something not of faith when the rapture comes, am I not part of the barley harvest? and if one must be here thru to the wheat harvest, will you be part of this delusion?
And I am seeing two things: "Believe the truth" and "Receive the Love of the Truth" Not sure, but something is key there...
Are my 2 questions the same as your questions?
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Post by Natalie on Jan 7, 2018 11:30:21 GMT -6
I think you and I are saying the same thing...the man of lawlessness (whether physical or spiritual) has to do with unbelievers, but SK seemed to say that the man of lawlessness is in us...in believers...
But when I read further in the passage, that just doesn't make sense to me. I see it as a man will come with all kind of lies, deception, Satanic power and wonder and be able to deceive those who are perishing. Even if we take it as a spiritual "man", it's not speaking of believers.
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Finding things that are not there and have been added as well as little joys that have been there and overlooked. 