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Nov 8, 2018 16:49:05 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Nov 8, 2018 16:49:05 GMT -6
The link "wisdom" from Rev. 13:18 is to "wisdom" in Rev. 17:9. This verse (17:9) gives a slight indicator that the beast of 13:18 is the seventh beast. Thus, the seventh beast has the number 666. The one before the seventh (v. 13:12) is the beast of Verse 17:3 (the sixth). The one that follows the seventh is the eighth as found in Verse 13:1. Thus: beast number 6 is found in Verse 17:3, the one that is, the woman sits upon this beast beast number 7 is found in Verse 13:11, this is beast 666 that is Francis, the one that is to come, the woman sits upon this beast beast number 8 is found in Verse 13:1, Francis is blasphemy upon the heads, the woman has been removed and Francis' puppet rules the earth for 3.5 years. Your comment is confusing. The 4th beast is of the 7 beasts before it (Rev 17:11). Each beast kingdom had 1 king. The 8th beast, which is the 4th kingdom of the statue and the 8th kingdom of the world, is the beast that is 666. It is an exact representation of the kingdom preceding Rome (the one that is) as John learned that it was before John's time.... is no more during John's time and yet it will come again AFTER John's time. As it precedes Rome, it cannot be Rome. I don't see any indicator showing or eluding to the 7th beast which exists for a short time as 666. Because it existed but a short time, it is not the focus of the last one being the 8th. The 8th is the last because after it, Christ sets up his kingdom. Making the 8th the 666. Bondservant: I would be cautious trusting the writings of Walid Shoebat. Nuff said! Venge, where have you been? I kept wondering and wondering: Where in the world is Venge? It is good that you are here. I have made several postings that I thought for sure would draw you out; to no avail. Okay, I am theorizing that the 7th beast of Rev. 17:10 is the false prophet. This would mean that the beast of Verse 17:3 is the 6th beast of Verse 17:10, and the beast of Verse 13:1 is the eighth beast of Verse 17:11. That being the case, the 7th beast's false prophet is number 666.
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Nov 10, 2018 9:47:56 GMT -6
Post by venge on Nov 10, 2018 9:47:56 GMT -6
Bondservant: I would be cautious trusting the writings of Walid Shoebat. Nuff said! Thank you for the word of caution. I do not take godly advice lightly when I can sense it is motivated by love. I just recently learned about him and only put him as a reference since he is the one that make theses connections. I have read some of his things a long while ago. When I first came into contact with him, maybe 3 years back, I noticed the same graph you posted relating to the similarity of 666. But Once I began to read more of his assertions and looked into others explaining how things are written, translated, errors with comparing 666 in Greek with Islamic words etc.., it was obvious, at least to me, that though his intentions may have been good....he was lead by his own inclinations. This is typical of all of us at some time. Because we find something and say AHA! This is it, but are we lead by the HS or by ourselves trying to unlock a clue. If we do find something...do we share it and give glory to God or do we keep it to ourselves? He is close to WMD publishers and therefore close to Joel Richardson. So you get a lot of Islamic Mystery Babylon stuff. Not to say that's wrong, but I am saying that it adds to his belief and that is what he writes on.
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Post by venge on Nov 10, 2018 10:53:33 GMT -6
Your comment is confusing. The 4th beast is of the 7 beasts before it (Rev 17:11). Each beast kingdom had 1 king. The 8th beast, which is the 4th kingdom of the statue and the 8th kingdom of the world, is the beast that is 666. It is an exact representation of the kingdom preceding Rome (the one that is) as John learned that it was before John's time.... is no more during John's time and yet it will come again AFTER John's time. As it precedes Rome, it cannot be Rome. I don't see any indicator showing or eluding to the 7th beast which exists for a short time as 666. Because it existed but a short time, it is not the focus of the last one being the 8th. The 8th is the last because after it, Christ sets up his kingdom. Making the 8th the 666. Bondservant: I would be cautious trusting the writings of Walid Shoebat. Nuff said! Venge, where have you been? I kept wondering and wondering: Where in the world is Venge? It is good that you are here. I have made several postings that I thought for sure would draw you out; to no avail. Okay, I am theorizing that the 7th beast of Rev. 17:10 is the false prophet. This would mean that the beast of Verse 17:3 is the 6th beast of Verse 17:10, and the beast of Verse 13:1 is the eighth beast of Verse 17:11. That being the case, the 7th beast's false prophet is number 666. I been reading just not posting =P It has never been my intention to cause friction with fellow believers in Christ, my Lord and savior. When I needed to delete some posts of mine, some were concerned. I took a little break and have been talking to people on PMs where I can speak freely. Also, work has been very busy the last few weeks and I haven't had time to reply to posts which would require me to put forth a scriptural reply. Ok you had stated: Okay, I am theorizing that the 7th beast of Rev. 17:10 is the false prophet.Let me post Rev 17:10 below from the KJV When I read this, I see 2 things. Firstly, the text states there are 7 kings. We know each king rules a kingdom therefore there are also 7 mountains which are easily identified as the heads of the beast or the kingdoms each king rules. Now, when the word king is used, it is denoting a ruler or leader. So we have 7 rulers that rule 7 kingdoms. Let us go through them. Remember, when John saw the revelation 5 are dead and one is living. 1. Egyptian Empire: Ruled by Pharaoh (Passed away)2. Assyrian Empire: Rule by Sennacherib (Passed away)3. Medes-Persian Empire: Ruled by Cyrus the Great (Passed away)4. Babylonian Empire: Ruled by Nebuchadnezzar (Passed away)5. Grecian Empire: Ruled by Alexander the Great (Passed away)6. Roman Empire: Ruled by Caesar (was living when John saw the vision) (Passed away)7. Empire that has "not yet come" and must "continue a short space." (comes after John and after Rome)So now we see 7 of the 8 heads of the beast. If the 7th king is the False Prophet, then who is the 8th? The 7th cannot be the false prophet because all 7 heads must die as men do, and their kingdoms, and be removed for the Jews to come back to Israel. For the final beast (the 8th of the previous 7) to come back, they need to be removed for a season and a time per Dan 7:12 when it is said: Once all 7 heads were killed, the Jews were able to come back to Israel. The kingdoms that died had their dominion taken away therefore they lost their crowns on each head; yet, they lived on through countries we call today: Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey etc... I would say the False Prophet is the leader of the final 8th kingdom. Then you mentioned Rev 17:3 as the 6th beast of what I wrote above. Verse 3 shows you that the city that rides the beast is not the 6th beast (Rome) that has been slain. Look at the context of the words. This beast has: 1. full of names of blasphemy 2. has 7 heads 3. has 10 horns This beast is the final beast representing the 8th head and not the 6th. Look at Rev 13:1-2 This beast has the same attributes as the one mentioned in Rev 17:3. But you notice here, it has traits from 3rd (feet of a bear), 4th (mouth of a lion) and 5th kingdoms (like unto a leopard). Not the 6th, Rome. Look at the description now in Rev 12:3 Before Christ was born, the dragon had: 1. 7 heads 2. 10 horns 3. 7 crowns ON the 7 heads. Notice that in Rev 12, each 7 heads of the dragon wears a crown. The crowns have not yet been removed nor has the heads been slain YET! It is history. Once each head is slain, notice the crowns shift from the heads that once held power in their kingdoms to the horns. The dragons 7 heads all now wear the name of blasphemy; not crowns. The horns wear the crowns 1 hr with the beast. Therefore, Rev 13 and Rev 17 are speaking of the final 8th head representing the last kingdom, not the 6th. Lastly, you mentioned that you believe the 7th beast false prophet is 666. That requires a lot more info I am not ready to post right now, but I will say that as I was trying to demonstrate above, I believe the false prophet is the 8th ruler. He is a horn and the horns receive the crowns, not the heads as the heads hold blasphemy. I would also point out the false prophet is not 666. Remember the false prophet (beast of the earth) makes an image to the first beast of the sea. And it is through false worship that mankind accept a mark not of God in their hearts. That mark is a sealing and it is 666. Our mark or sealing is the HS. Remember Lot's wife? Look at Luke 17:30-33 The ones marked by Christ with the HS are content with what they have for all is Christ. Does he not care for us, does he provide the things we need? He even speaks to God the father for us making intersession. But those sealed with Belial will think in a time of calamity on worldly things. Money, houses, tvs whatever. Their heart will be far from God and on the things they will miss. That is why Christ said in verse 33: Lose your fleshly lusts, trust in Christ and you will preserve your life.
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Nov 12, 2018 20:37:55 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Nov 12, 2018 20:37:55 GMT -6
Hi Venge. I have not had time to read your posting until now and I want to thank you for your reply. I love your work on this site and can not imagine this site with out you. However; and there is always a however or some kind of qualifier to a posting. Have you looked at schooldad3's work? It is also very good.
I can see two distinct periods in the 7 years of tribulation. The first 3.5 years are a time of global persecution for the church, and the second 3.5 years are a time of global domination for the church. The dividing point as stipulated-to at Rev. 8:1 is the beginning of the 7th seal.
Let's focus on this specific dividing point that I believe to be the beginning of the Savior's rule upon the earth. That is, the first 3.5 years was Satan's final push at global domination, and the second 3.5 years is Christ's house cleaning as he moves his throne upon this earth.
I realize that the point of the enrapture is at the very beginning of the 7 years of tribulation; this is a given between us. Yet, there is also a persecution of the saints as stated in Rev. 13 and Dan 7 that comes after the rapture, and there is a destruction of the beast as referenced in Rev. 19. Thus, there is a rapture, then a 3.5 year persecution of the saints by the beast, then a 3.5 year house cleaning by the Savior that ends with the wrath of God as referenced in Chapter 16.
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Nov 12, 2018 23:03:04 GMT -6
Post by bondservant on Nov 12, 2018 23:03:04 GMT -6
I have seen many people emphatically deny that Islam could ever dominate as the "beast system". Yet, they are convinced of a pre-tribulation rapture. My question(s) would be: If the church is raptured then what would stop Islam from dominating? Have you been watching what has been taking place with Islam & Sharia in America? A perfect example would be the Women's March... look at the leaders. Look at many of those in office that embrace CAIR. Look at the rise of female genital mutilation in America. Look at what is taking place in Canada, the UK, France & Sweden.... worse of all in Africa. It is not that far fetched.
#CreepingSharia
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Nov 13, 2018 0:50:20 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Nov 13, 2018 0:50:20 GMT -6
I have seen many people emphatically deny that Islam could ever dominate as the "beast system". Yet, they are convinced of a pre-tribulation rapture. My question(s) would be: If the church is raptured then what would stop Islam from dominating? Have you been watching what has been taking place with Islam & Sharia in America? A perfect example would be the Women's March... look at the leaders. Look at many of those in office that embrace CAIR. Look at the rise of female genital mutilation in America. Look at what is taking place in Canada, the UK, France & Sweden.... worse of all in Africa. It is not that far fetched. #CreepingSharia I am one of those who cannot see Islam having world domination; forcing the people to have a mark in their hands and foreheads for food. However, I do see them having regional domination. Since Christ takes control of the earth (in my opinion) at the middle of the seven years of tribulation, then it is there that I see Islam rebelling to conquer Israel. Prior to that time the world power "beast" might also try to conquer Israel but it appears to be driven by greed; for oil and gas? The Islamic nations would attack on religious grounds. Europe would perhaps be in civil war with Islam attacking from within. It is possible I suppose. Schooldad3 could be right but I do not know how they could have global domination. Since Islamic nations have few Christians then the rapture would have little effect upon them directly but secondarily from the loss of trade revenue. Perhaps the beast having global domination is an incorrect conclusion on our part and he has domination only in the lands of the seven beasts. Thus, only Europe and the middle east would fall under the prophecy and not the entire world. That being the case, then it could be Islam. Schooldad3's analysis is looking better.
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Nov 13, 2018 8:02:52 GMT -6
mike likes this
Post by bondservant on Nov 13, 2018 8:02:52 GMT -6
I am one of those who cannot see Islam having world domination; forcing the people to have a mark in their hands and foreheads for food. However, I do see them having regional domination. Since Christ takes control of the earth (in my opinion) at the middle of the seven years of tribulation, then it is there that I see Islam rebelling to conquer Israel. Prior to that time the world power "beast" might also try to conquer Israel but it appears to be driven by greed; for oil and gas? The Islamic nations would attack on religious grounds. Europe would perhaps be in civil war with Islam attacking from within. It is possible I suppose. Schooldad3 could be right but I do not know how they could have global domination. Since Islamic nations have few Christians then the rapture would have little effect upon them directly but secondarily from the loss of trade revenue. Perhaps the beast having global domination is an incorrect conclusion on our part and he has domination only in the lands of the seven beasts. Thus, only Europe and the middle east would fall under the prophecy and not the entire world. That being the case, then it could be Islam. Schooldad3's analysis is looking better. I might be wrong here but I would not discount the solar eclipse coming in less than 6 years as a significant sign of things to come in America. Attachments:
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Nov 13, 2018 14:40:02 GMT -6
Post by venge on Nov 13, 2018 14:40:02 GMT -6
Hi Venge. I have not had time to read your posting until now and I want to thank you for your reply. I love your work on this site and can not imagine this site with out you. However; and there is always a however or some kind of qualifier to a posting. Have you looked at schooldad3's work? It is also very good. I can see two distinct periods in the 7 years of tribulation. The first 3.5 years are a time of global persecution for the church, and the second 3.5 years are a time of global domination for the church. The dividing point as stipulated-to at Rev. 8:1 is the beginning of the 7th seal. Let's focus on this specific dividing point that I believe to be the beginning of the Savior's rule upon the earth. That is, the first 3.5 years was Satan's final push at global domination, and the second 3.5 years is Christ's house cleaning as he moves his throne upon this earth. I realize that the point of the enrapture is at the very beginning of the 7 years of tribulation; this is a given between us. Yet, there is also a persecution of the saints as stated in Rev. 13 and Dan 7 that comes after the rapture, and there is a destruction of the beast as referenced in Rev. 19. Thus, there is a rapture, then a 3.5 year persecution of the saints by the beast, then a 3.5 year house cleaning by the Savior that ends with the wrath of God as referenced in Chapter 16. Hello Bora, I have watched 2 of Schooldads videos and I do not agree with him at all. I appreciate the amount of historical research he gives, but I do not agree. EDIT: Bora, I should add that in I was referring to 2 videos he made that I did not agree with him. I have not watched ALL his videos. Therefore, it is possible to agree with some information I have yet to view. I am unsure at the exact point of time where Satan is ceased though I can always speculate. In reference to the first 3.5 years, I don't know if that is when he is done or not. I do not hold onto pre tribulation rapture doctrine. Is it possible? Yes, because it hasn't happen. Do I see evidence of it in the bible? I do not, quite the contrary. I would agree to a Pre Day of the Lord rapture, but not a pre tribulation rapture. I do not believe we will be raptured till after the 6th seal is opened. That is evident but the song sung by the Elders and the beast together. That is evident by the 5th seal martyrs crying out to be avenged by God because God's wrath hasn't come yet, evident by the 6th seal being opened, then people hide in the rocks because the Lord's wrath is now going to come on them and appease the 5th seal martyrs, evident by the angels that are commanded NOT to hurt trees, grass, the sea, earth TILL 144k are sealed. Evident by the stones of fire thrown to the earth by the angel symbolizing judgment. And I could show more evidence to support this through many other examples.
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Nov 14, 2018 11:40:35 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Nov 14, 2018 11:40:35 GMT -6
I have watched 2 of Schooldads videos and I do not agree with him at all. I appreciate the amount of historical research he gives, but I do not agree. EDIT: Bora, I should add that in I was referring to 2 videos he made that I did not agree with him. I have not watched ALL his videos. Therefore, it is possible to agree with some information I have yet to view. I am unsure at the exact point of time where Satan is ceased though I can always speculate. In reference to the first 3.5 years, I don't know if that is when he is done or not. I do not hold onto pre tribulation rapture doctrine. Is it possible? Yes, because it hasn't happen. Do I see evidence of it in the bible? I do not, quite the contrary. I would agree to a Pre Day of the Lord rapture, but not a pre tribulation rapture. I do not believe we will be raptured till after the 6th seal is opened. That is evident but the song sung by the Elders and the beast together. That is evident by the 5th seal martyrs crying out to be avenged by God because God's wrath hasn't come yet, evident by the 6th seal being opened, then people hide in the rocks because the Lord's wrath is now going to come on them and appease the 5th seal martyrs, evident by the angels that are commanded NOT to hurt trees, grass, the sea, earth TILL 144k are sealed. Evident by the stones of fire thrown to the earth by the angel symbolizing judgment. And I could show more evidence to support this through many other examples. Venge, am I following your logic correctly? As follows: 1) "I do not believe we will be raptured till after the 6th seal is opened." You are saying after Verse 6:12 2) "That is evident (by) the song sung by the Elders and the beast together." You are saying the evidence that the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal is the song in Verses 5:9, 14:3, and 15:3. 3) "That is evident by the 5th seal martyrs crying out to be avenged by God because God's wrath hasn't come yet, evident by the 6th seal being opened." You are saying that the crying of the martyrs (v. 6:10) is 5th seal and the song (vv. 5:9, 14:3, 15:3) is 6th seal showing that the rapture has not occurred until the opening of the 6th seal. 4) "then people hide in the rocks because the Lord's wrath is now going to come on them and appease the 5th seal martyrs." You are saying that the martyrs who were crying in the 5th seal (v. 6:10) will now be appeased (v. 18:20, 19:14). 5) "evident by the angels that are commanded NOT to hurt trees, grass, the sea, earth TILL 144k are sealed." You are saying that further evidence that the rapture is in the 6th seal is Verses 7:1-4 in which the angels are commanded to not hurt the trees, etc. till the 144k are sealed. 6) "Evident by the stones of fire thrown to the earth by the angel symbolizing judgment." That the sealing of the 144,000 (vv. 7:1-4) occurs before the judgment symbolized in Verse 6:15-16. I hope that I have stated your evidence correctly. One thing that I would like to point out is the major transition at the 7th seal (v. 8:1). Here the seven angels are given trumpets (v. 8:2) and they are ready to sound (v. 8:6). Thus, the four angels as referenced in Verses 7:1-4 have not yet hurt the earth. This shows that the sealing of the 144,000 is prior to Verse 8:6; because, at Verse 8:7 the first of the four angels sounds to hurt the earth. Thus, at Verse 6:15 the men are awaiting in the 6th seal for the wrath of God but the wrath does not come until the 7th seal beginning at Verse 8:7. This appears to show that those avenged (v. 6:10) are not avenged until sometime later. I was going to say at Verse 8:7; however, there is an avenging upon Babylon (18:20, 19:2), and an avenging upon the beast (19:20). Verse 8:7 begins the wrath of God that is not the avenging upon Babylon nor the avenging upon the beast. Side Note: It appears that an introduction summery for the 6th seal exists at Verses 6:12-14 and an introduction summary for the 7th seal exists at Verses 8:3-5, and both of these introductions link to Verse 9:1. The Evidence: Notice at Verse 6:13 the stars fell " unto the earth," and at Verse 8:5 the censer was cast " into the earth," and lastly at Verse 9:1 John saw a star fall " unto the earth." Each of these three markers harmonize the time for chapters 6, 8, and 9. Thus, the four angels have hurt the earth as referenced in the three above summaries as follows: The earth was hurt prior to Verse 6:13 The earth was hurt prior to Verse 8:5 The earth was hurt prior to Verse 9:1 As I said, these references in the text at Verses 6:12-14, 8:3-5, and 9:1 summarize the hurt upon the earth as stated in Verses 8:7-12. Thus, the text of the 6th and 7th seal is as follows: 1) Verse 6:12, the 6th seal opens and a side note summary (referenced above) is given at Verses 6:12-14 followed by the men of the earth hiding for fear of the wrath of God (vv. 6:15-16). Notice that these men are hiding for the wrath of God that is coming. That is, Verses 6:12-14 are coming and they begin at Verses 8:7-12. Thus, at the 6th seal the men are hiding and are not yet being destroyed in the wrath of God. 2) Verse 8:1, the 7th seal opens and the 7 angels are given trumpets, and a side note summary (referenced above) is given at Verses 8:3-5 followed by the 7 angels prepared to sound (v. 8:6), and the first four angels sound at Verses 8:7-12 hurting the earth in the process. 3) Verse 9:1, opens with the summary (referenced above) that leads to the first woe. That is, the summary alludes to the hurt upon the earth as stated in Verses 8:7-12 as a future event just as the two former summaries in Verses 6:12-14 and 8:3-5 show the hurt upon the earth as a future event. That is, the first woe in Chapter 9 begins before the summary in Verse 9:1. That is, the hurt upon the earth by the four angels appears to be the wrath of God at Verse 11:19 and they do not begin before the first woe in Chapter 9. Thus, the order appears to be as follows: 1st woe (angel number 5 in Verse 9:1) 2nd woe (angel number 6 in Verse 9:13) 3rd woe (angel number 7 in Verse 11:15). The wrath of God in which the 4 angels hurt the earth in Verses 8:7-12 is presided over by the 7th angel. I had formerly thought the 5th angel presided over the four angels. However, in light of this evidence the angel from the east in Verse 7:2 is the 7th angel. If the above is correct, then it follows that: 1st woe in seals 1-6 in Verses 6:1-11, 15-17, 9:1-12 2nd woe in seal 7 in Verses 9:13-21 An Intermission and a fourth summary in Verses 10:1-11:13. A note about this fourth summary is that it shows that the intermission precedes each of the four wrath of God summaries in Verses 6:12-14, 8:3-5, 9:1, and 11:13. 3rd woe in seal 7 in Verses 11:14-19 that include the hurt upon the earth as described in Verses 8:7-12 The dividing point appears to be between the first and second woes in that the 6th seal is in the first woe and the 7th seal is in the second woe. The woes are periods of destruction. Thus, the beast destroys Babylon as referenced in Verses 6:8 and Chapters 17, 13, and 18, and this proves that Verse 6:8 is in the first woe. Secondly, the Savior destroys the beast in the second woe and then there is a period of intermission followed by the third woe in Chapter 11. The second half of the BoR simply expands upon the chronology of the first half of the book from Chapters 6-11. This point of the above analysis it to establish the location of the rapture in the seven years of tribulation. Since Verse 9:4 is in the first woe and the 144,000 are referenced in that verse as being sealed, then the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning or prior to the first woe. This sealing involves the marriage as referenced in Verses 7:9 that links to and harmonizes in time with Verses 19:5-9. Since the marriage was after the fall of Babylon, then the marriage must have taken place in the first woe prior to or during the time of Verse 9:4. Therefore, since the marriage includes the rapture of the church, and it is in the first woe, then it is at the beginning of the 7 years of tribulation.
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Nov 14, 2018 14:57:54 GMT -6
Post by venge on Nov 14, 2018 14:57:54 GMT -6
I have watched 2 of Schooldads videos and I do not agree with him at all. I appreciate the amount of historical research he gives, but I do not agree. EDIT: Bora, I should add that in I was referring to 2 videos he made that I did not agree with him. I have not watched ALL his videos. Therefore, it is possible to agree with some information I have yet to view. I am unsure at the exact point of time where Satan is ceased though I can always speculate. In reference to the first 3.5 years, I don't know if that is when he is done or not. I do not hold onto pre tribulation rapture doctrine. Is it possible? Yes, because it hasn't happen. Do I see evidence of it in the bible? I do not, quite the contrary. I would agree to a Pre Day of the Lord rapture, but not a pre tribulation rapture. I do not believe we will be raptured till after the 6th seal is opened. That is evident but the song sung by the Elders and the beast together. That is evident by the 5th seal martyrs crying out to be avenged by God because God's wrath hasn't come yet, evident by the 6th seal being opened, then people hide in the rocks because the Lord's wrath is now going to come on them and appease the 5th seal martyrs, evident by the angels that are commanded NOT to hurt trees, grass, the sea, earth TILL 144k are sealed. Evident by the stones of fire thrown to the earth by the angel symbolizing judgment. And I could show more evidence to support this through many other examples. Venge, am I following your logic correctly? As follows: 1) "I do not believe we will be raptured till after the 6th seal is opened." You are saying after Verse 6:12 2) "That is evident (by) the song sung by the Elders and the beast together." You are saying the evidence that the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal is the song in Verses 5:9, 14:3, and 15:3. 3) "That is evident by the 5th seal martyrs crying out to be avenged by God because God's wrath hasn't come yet, evident by the 6th seal being opened." You are saying that the crying of the martyrs (v. 6:10) is 5th seal and the song (vv. 5:9, 14:3, 15:3) is 6th seal showing that the rapture has not occurred until the opening of the 6th seal. 4) "then people hide in the rocks because the Lord's wrath is now going to come on them and appease the 5th seal martyrs." You are saying that the martyrs who were crying in the 5th seal (v. 6:10) will now be appeased (v. 18:20, 19:14). 5) "evident by the angels that are commanded NOT to hurt trees, grass, the sea, earth TILL 144k are sealed." You are saying that further evidence that the rapture is in the 6th seal is Verses 7:1-4 in which the angels are commanded to not hurt the trees, etc. till the 144k are sealed. 6) "Evident by the stones of fire thrown to the earth by the angel symbolizing judgment." That the sealing of the 144,000 (vv. 7:1-4) occurs before the judgment symbolized in Verse 6:15-16. I hope that I have stated your evidence correctly. One thing that I would like to point out is the major transition at the 7th seal (v. 8:1). Here the seven angels are given trumpets (v. 8:2) and they are ready to sound (v. 8:6). Thus, the four angels as referenced in Verses 7:1-4 have not yet hurt the earth. This shows that the sealing of the 144,000 is prior to Verse 8:6; because, at Verse 8:7 the first of the four angels sounds to hurt the earth. Thus, at Verse 6:15 the men are awaiting in the 6th seal for the wrath of God but the wrath does not come until the 7th seal beginning at Verse 8:7. This appears to show that those avenged (v. 6:10) are not avenged until sometime later. I was going to say at Verse 8:7; however, there is an avenging upon Babylon (18:20, 19:2), and an avenging upon the beast (19:20). Verse 8:7 begins the wrath of God that is not the avenging upon Babylon nor the avenging upon the beast. Side Note: It appears that an introduction summery for the 6th seal exists at Verses 6:12-14 and an introduction summary for the 7th seal exists at Verses 8:3-5, and both of these introductions link to Verse 9:1. The Evidence: Notice at Verse 6:13 the stars fell " unto the earth," and at Verse 8:5 the censer was cast " into the earth," and lastly at Verse 9:1 John saw a star fall " unto the earth." Each of these three markers harmonize the time for chapters 6, 8, and 9. Thus, the four angels have hurt the earth as referenced in the three above summaries as follows: The earth was hurt prior to Verse 6:13 The earth was hurt prior to Verse 8:5 The earth was hurt prior to Verse 9:1 As I said, these references in the text at Verses 6:12-14, 8:3-5, and 9:1 summarize the hurt upon the earth as stated in Verses 8:7-12. Thus, the text of the 6th and 7th seal is as follows: 1) Verse 6:12, the 6th seal opens and a side note summary (referenced above) is given at Verses 6:12-14 followed by the men of the earth hiding for fear of the wrath of God (vv. 6:15-16). Notice that these men are hiding for the wrath of God that is coming. That is, Verses 6:12-14 are coming and they begin at Verses 8:7-12. Thus, at the 6th seal the men are hiding and are not yet being destroyed in the wrath of God. 2) Verse 8:1, the 7th seal opens and the 7 angels are given trumpets, and a side note summary (referenced above) is given at Verses 8:3-5 followed by the 7 angels prepared to sound (v. 8:6), and the first four angels sound at Verses 8:7-12 hurting the earth in the process. 3) Verse 9:1, opens with the summary (referenced above) that leads to the first woe. That is, the summary alludes to the hurt upon the earth as stated in Verses 8:7-12 as a future event just as the two former summaries in Verses 6:12-14 and 8:3-5 show the hurt upon the earth as a future event. That is, the first woe in Chapter 9 begins before the summary in Verse 9:1. That is, the hurt upon the earth by the four angels appears to be the wrath of God at Verse 11:19 and they do not begin before the first woe in Chapter 9. Thus, the order appears to be as follows: 1st woe (angel number 5 in Verse 9:1) 2nd woe (angel number 6 in Verse 9:13) 3rd woe (angel number 7 in Verse 11:15). The wrath of God in which the 4 angels hurt the earth in Verses 8:7-12 is presided over by the 7th angel. I had formerly thought the 5th angel presided over the four angels. However, in light of this evidence the angel from the east in Verse 7:2 is the 7th angel. If the above is correct, then it follows that: 1st woe in seals 1-6 in Verses 6:1-11, 15-17, 9:1-12 2nd woe in seal 7 in Verses 9:13-21 An Intermission and a fourth summary in Verses 10:1-11:13. A note about this fourth summary is that it shows that the intermission precedes each of the four wrath of God summaries in Verses 6:12-14, 8:3-5, 9:1, and 11:13. 3rd woe in seal 7 in Verses 11:14-19 that include the hurt upon the earth as described in Verses 8:7-12 The dividing point appears to be between the first and second woes in that the 6th seal is in the first woe and the 7th seal is in the second woe. The woes are periods of destruction. Thus, the beast destroys Babylon as referenced in Verses 6:8 and Chapters 17, 13, and 18, and this proves that Verse 6:8 is in the first woe. Secondly, the Savior destroys the beast in the second woe and then there is a period of intermission followed by the third woe in Chapter 11. The second half of the BoR simply expands upon the chronology of the first half of the book from Chapters 6-11. This point of the above analysis it to establish the location of the rapture in the seven years of tribulation. Since Verse 9:4 is in the first woe and the 144,000 are referenced in that verse as being sealed, then the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning or prior to the first woe. This sealing involves the marriage as referenced in Verses 7:9 that links to and harmonizes in time with Verses 19:5-9. Since the marriage was after the fall of Babylon, then the marriage must have taken place in the first woe prior to or during the time of Verse 9:4. Therefore, since the marriage includes the rapture of the church, and it is in the first woe, then it is at the beginning of the 7 years of tribulation. Bora stated: You are saying [the rapture happens] after Verse 6:12 Yes, after Rev 6:12. Not before.
Bora stated: I hope that I have stated your evidence correctly. One thing that I would like to point out is the major transition at the 7th seal (v. 8:1). Here the seven angels are given trumpets (v. 8:2) and they are ready to sound (v. 8:6). Thus, the four angels as referenced in Verses 7:1-4 have not yet hurt the earth. This shows that the sealing of the 144,000 is prior to Verse 8:6; because, at Verse 8:7 the first of the four angels sounds to hurt the earth. Thus, at Verse 6:15 the men are awaiting in the 6th seal for the wrath of God but the wrath does not come until the 7th seal beginning at Verse 8:7. I agree and believe likewise. The wrath hasn't taken place yet and neither has the day of the Lord by the 6th seal. The angels are moved from heaven to the earth by the time they receive trumpets. There is no reason to believe that a rapture would ever occur before the 6th seal. Lets suppose in a fanciful way, that Syria attacks Egypt. Then Syria attacks Libya, then Syria attacks another country. You can use any country you want in Syria's place, I am just using it as an example. We would look at the middle east as just another war. We in the US, or Mexico, or Europe..Wherever would be going on with our lives. Building roads, given in marriage, attending college etc...Then, just then a rapture happens...See, there is always war and death and famine. The trumpets show its effects 1/3rd of the Trees and such in that area, Yet another portion shows it effects a quarter of the world (Rev 6:8). If you take the middle east and divide it up from the rest of the world, a quarter is a lot but it is not the whole world. It is easy to then say, if you are watching will you see it! You don't need to look up to watch, you need to look straight ahead of you. Its in the news, its at work, its at school. I bring this up because some may say that it has to happen before the seals. Show me where that is said by Christ.
Bora stated: This appears to show that those avenged (v. 6:10) are not avenged until sometime later. I was going to say at Verse 8:7; however, there is an avenging upon Babylon (18:20, 19:2), and an avenging upon the beast (19:20). Verse 8:7 begins the wrath of God that is not the avenging upon Babylon nor the avenging upon the beast.
I agree. God avenges those that died in Christ with the trumpets and the bowls. That is why we see in Chapter 8, the prayers of the saints rise before his throne. These were the prayers of those from the 5th seal that died asking "when" will He punish the inhabitants of the earth. He states to them to wait a little longer...He cannot punish them at the 5th seal when they ask because he cannot punish the earth TILL a rapture happens and the 144k are sealed otherwise he punishes his elect. Once raptured and sealed, he can begin the punishment. In regards to the avenging of Babylon, it is my opinion this happens in the first 3 Trumpets of chapter 8.
Bora stated: Side Note: It appears that an introduction summery for the 6th seal exists at Verses 6:12-14 and an introduction summary for the 7th seal exists at Verses 8:3-5, and both of these introductions link to Verse 9:1. The Evidence: Notice at Verse 6:13 the stars fell "unto the earth," and at Verse 8:5 the censer was cast "into the earth," and lastly at Verse 9:1 John saw a star fall "unto the earth." Each of these three markers harmonize the time for chapters 6, 8, and 9. You are taking the stars that fall from heaven to earth as meteorites. Show me evidence for that without presuming based on today. Look at Isa 34:4. Instead of stars being used, another phrase is used.
The stars that fall from heaven to earth are the host of heaven. Tell me Bora, who are the host of heaven that fall to the earth =P. Remember how I said the angels of God worship him in Rev 5:11. But then after Rev 6:13 when the host of heaven falls to the earth, we see in Rev 7:1
When did they descend? Or verse 2:
Not coming down from heaven but rising from the east. You take that verse to mean some type of judgement, I do not. =P It conflicts with Rev 6:16
If meteorites fell, why doesn't it state rocks falling? Why doesn't it state the death toll as other scripture does? Why doesn't it say 1/3rd of the trees are killed? No death is mentioned yet all over the trumpets and bowls death is shown and numbers (though vague) are shown.
I do not harmonize seals with trumpets with bowls. I place them all separate. You cannot harmonize it when you read this:
The seven bowls are distinct from a trumpet because trumpets are for warning the earth. They are the last chance before there is no chance. God says in Joel even now, when all this happens turn to me. Those thrown into judgement at the trumpets can still turn to God. But will God find faith is asked? Rend your heart and not your clothing. The bowls, I take, are the final punishment when those left have not repented. God still waits all the way to the last possible second willing to save as he wants NO ONE to suffer. What a great savior we have with so much love that he gives the human race every single possible chance.
I am not following you to where you think the marriage supper comes in but I do not harmonize the seals and trumpets and bowls together. In each instance, once cannot start until one finishes. I am not understanding your placement. I will say this, we know the DotL will not come until there is a falling away and the AC is revealed. It is noted that he is revealed when he sets up the AoD. For it to be setup, as an army per Luke (think its Luke), that happens before Jerusalem is sacked. If that is in the 1st 3 trumpets as I believe, then we can know that time is a proximity to the middle of the 7 year period placing it close towards the end of the first 3.5 year period. Thus, since this happens at the same time or Before Babylon is destroyed (if we believe Babylon is Jerusalem or we do not), it still must happen afterwards. Therefore, I cannot fathom a rapture happening 3.5 years prior as it was not God's wrath yet TILL these things happen.
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666
Nov 14, 2018 19:48:26 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Nov 14, 2018 19:48:26 GMT -6
Venge, your response is beautiful as always. I particularly like the following because it answers an item that links to your previous posting.
"That is why we see in Chapter 8, the prayers of the saints rise before his throne. These were the prayers of those from the 5th seal that died asking "when" will He punish the inhabitants of the earth. He states to them to wait a little longer...He cannot punish them at the 5th seal when they ask because he cannot punish the earth TILL a rapture happens and the 144k are sealed otherwise he punishes his elect. Once raptured and sealed, he can begin the punishment."
I looked for that information and had guessed at where you were getting it. Okay, in my opinion the link is absolutely clear (v. 8:3 links to v. 6:9) and your conclusion that Verse 8:3 answers the saints request from the fifth seal is correct. I had not noticed that link before now.
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666
Nov 15, 2018 9:02:20 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Nov 15, 2018 9:02:20 GMT -6
Venge, your response is beautiful as always. I particularly like the following because it answers an item that links to your previous posting. "That is why we see in Chapter 8, the prayers of the saints rise before his throne. These were the prayers of those from the 5th seal that died asking "when" will He punish the inhabitants of the earth. He states to them to wait a little longer...He cannot punish them at the 5th seal when they ask because he cannot punish the earth TILL a rapture happens and the 144k are sealed otherwise he punishes his elect. Once raptured and sealed, he can begin the punishment." I looked for that information and had guessed at where you were getting it. Okay, in my opinion the link is absolutely clear (v. 8:3 links to v. 6:9) and your conclusion that Verse 8:3 answers the saints request from the fifth seal is correct. I had not noticed that link before now. venge, continuing from our previous posts, you say "trumpets are for warning the earth." Are you saying that the sounding of the seven trumpets in Chapters 8-11 are the warning? That being the case then the order is as follows: 1st seal 2nd seal 3rd seal 4th seal 5th seal and the prayers of the saints 6th seal and the sealing of the 144,000 as well as the marriage 7th seal and the prayers of the saints ascend to God followed by warnings noted by the sounding of the trumpets in Chapters 8-11 Please correct this to show what you are saying. I like the warning part especially when we know all things are before God. Thus he can warn and show what is going to happen in relation to that warning.
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Post by davewatchman on Nov 17, 2018 12:21:48 GMT -6
This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. 1335 divided by 40 days is 33.375. The one third that is blessed who waits for and reaches it. The 666 are cursed, two thirds are the lost. The number of his name, which is Abaddon. The Destroyer. I can have a different understanding of this mark of the beast business. And it's different than what the other people are saying, so i'd rather not step on other people's toes here. And my view of it is a bit hard to swallow because there's so much other doctrine involved that i wonder why even try and risk rubbing the people the wrong way. My ideas on this are very controversial, and very spooky, but are based on other studies of the Bible's use of thirds. "A third part of you shall die of pestilence and be consumed with famine in your midst;
"A third part shall fall by the sword all around you; and
"A third part I will scatter to all the winds and will unsheathe the sword after them.See how two thirds are destroyed. But one third is spared. 666, is the two thirds that are lost. 333, is the one third that is saved. And i also tend to wonder if it hasn't started already in some form, but there's certainly more to come when the image of the beast is enforced. "Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.I am suspicious that "it", the second beast, has already caused one third of the population to receive this mark on their right hand or in their foreheads, which are their actions and their intentions. "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
These people cannot buy or sell without the mark. They can't operate in society, their actions, their intentions and the thoughts of their hearts are evil continually. And with this mark, this indicator, they are marked for their destruction. This is the number of his name that identifies the Antichrist. This might be touchy but the beast that we are talking about here is the second beast, the beast that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to his destruction. This is NOT the composite beast that he gives his power and his throne and his great authority to. This is Abaddon, the angel king of the abyss. Like Jesus said, a kingdom cannot be divided against itself. We're talking about the Devil, the son of perdition, the son of destruction, Paul's "man" of sin. Is this the "man" that made the nations tremble? His very name means DESTRUCTION. So can the NUMBER of his name be the number of people that he takes with him to his to destruction? Paul's "man of sin" is Lucifer, he is not a human man. He was cast down from Heaven and into the abyss on resurrection Sunday. We're just now waiting for him to be revealed when the fifth trumpet is sounded and the abyss is opened up. Remember Jesus said this when He was still here: "now shall the prince of this world be cast out.He once WAS in our visible realm, now is NOT in our visible realm, but WILL be in our visible realm again and then go to his destruction. When Paul was talking about the "man of sin" being revealed, he elaborated, he called him the "son of perdition", that's the son of destruction. Same as Abaddon and Apollyon, in two languages the name means destroyer. Paul was drawing from Isaiah 14, "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble. In the Bible days a name meant something, it meant who the person was. That is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. Let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and the number of his name. It might be an easier calculation than we've been searching for. "Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many ...
“Your name is Jacob; no longer shall your name be called Jacob, but Israel shall be your name.”
"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name ... "This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.This calls for a mind with wisdom. Could it be that the number of a man is the number of the "man" of sin. It's the number of the son of destruction. And it's the number of humanity that he is going to take with him to his destruction. He took one third of the holy angels, but he's not finished. He's going to have to take two thirds of humanity to their destruction. And this will complete 100% of his pie. 666, the number of his name, which is destruction. "For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three.
Two divided by three =.666 .666 as a simple fraction? If it is 0.666 then 666/1000 and reduce it. If it is 0.666.... then 2/3s. Two thirds. Peaceful Sabbath.
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666
Nov 17, 2018 12:32:13 GMT -6
Post by venge on Nov 17, 2018 12:32:13 GMT -6
Venge, your response is beautiful as always. I particularly like the following because it answers an item that links to your previous posting. "That is why we see in Chapter 8, the prayers of the saints rise before his throne. These were the prayers of those from the 5th seal that died asking "when" will He punish the inhabitants of the earth. He states to them to wait a little longer...He cannot punish them at the 5th seal when they ask because he cannot punish the earth TILL a rapture happens and the 144k are sealed otherwise he punishes his elect. Once raptured and sealed, he can begin the punishment." I looked for that information and had guessed at where you were getting it. Okay, in my opinion the link is absolutely clear (v. 8:3 links to v. 6:9) and your conclusion that Verse 8:3 answers the saints request from the fifth seal is correct. I had not noticed that link before now. venge, continuing from our previous posts, you say "trumpets are for warning the earth." Are you saying that the sounding of the seven trumpets in Chapters 8-11 are the warning? That being the case then the order is as follows: 1st seal 2nd seal 3rd seal 4th seal 5th seal and the prayers of the saints 6th seal and the sealing of the 144,000 as well as the marriage 7th seal and the prayers of the saints ascend to God followed by warnings noted by the sounding of the trumpets in Chapters 8-11 Please correct this to show what you are saying. I like the warning part especially when we know all things are before God. Thus he can warn and show what is going to happen in relation to that warning. I will have to give that some thought Bora. I will say this, In Rev 18 Mystery Babylon falls. When it does, the angels, and the elect celebrate its fall. In Rev 19, it says " after these things" That is after the fall of Babylon, which is shown in Rev 19:2: Then we see the marriage in Rev 19:6-9. So, we cannot have a marriage supper prior to the seals. The fall of Babylon must be placed after the seals because in order for it to fall, God needs to judge Babylon to avenge his saints per Rev 19:2. And his judgement must happen after the 144k because we need to wait for the angels to be allowed to inflict injury to the sea, the earth etc as they were previously holding back the 4 winds. This places the fall of Babylon between the 1st Trumpet and last Trumpet. The reason being that when it falls, the earth needs to be in a state where it sees it, the merchants of the earth weep for it, it inflicts economic hardship because of peoples lose to materialism and trade. It cannot be in the bowls for the final judgement of God because at that time, all enemies are under his footstool. So tell me, where in the trumpets fits well with Babylon being destroyed? We also know from Rev 14, the 144k must be sealed first, then sometimes AFTER that sealing, then Babylon is destroyed and after that is the harvest of the earth. That shows us: Seals 1-7 happen Then 144k are sealed. THEN, Babylon must fall, THEN, the marriage supper Now, do you place the marriage supper before or after the harvest of the earth? One thing is for sure, in order for Babylon to be destroyed, the beast of the sea and of the earth must be present and known in order to destroy Babylon; placing the falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist BEFORE Babylon is destroyed. Do you agree?
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666
Nov 17, 2018 15:18:51 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Nov 17, 2018 15:18:51 GMT -6
That shows us: Seals 1-7 happen Then 144k are sealed. THEN, Babylon must fall, THEN, the marriage supper Now, do you place the marriage supper before or after the harvest of the earth? One thing is for sure, in order for Babylon to be destroyed, the beast of the sea and of the earth must be present and known in order to destroy Babylon; placing the falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist BEFORE Babylon is destroyed. Do you agree? Venge, I think Chapter 14 provides an excellent order of events as you have shown: 1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14)In addition to the order in Chapter 14, Chapter 19 tells us as you have stated in your previous post: "In Rev 19, it says "after these things" That is after the fall of Babylon, which is shown in Rev 19:2: ' for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.' Then we see the marriage in Rev 19:6-9." Thus: 1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19)3) The harvest (Ch. 14) Thus, the 144,000 are sealed, Babylon is destroyed, the marriage takes place, and lastly is the harvest. This is a foundation of evidence that we both agree upon. Next, the sealing of the 144,000 in Chapter 7 that follows the Sixth Seal in Chapter 6 as follows: Sixth Seal (Ch. 6)1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14 & 7) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14) Next is the prayers of saints in the Fifth Seal. Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) prayers of saints (Ch. 6)Sixth Seal (Ch. 6)1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14 & 7) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14) Next is the answer to the prayers of saints from the Fifth Seal occurring in the Seventh Seal prior to the destruction of Babylon. That is, the saints of the Fifth Seal are avenged via the destruction of Babylon and this is proved via the links between Verses 6:10, 18:20, and 19:2 and applies at Verses 8:3-5 as follows: Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) Prayers of saints (Ch.6) Sixth Seal (Ch. 6)1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14 & 7) Seventh Seal (Ch. 8) a) Prayers of saints rise up to God (Ch.8)2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19 & Verses 8:3-5) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14) Next is the beast and false prophet that are cast out (Ch. 19) that occurs at the same time as the harvest. Thus, the harvest is the separation of the wheat (saints) and tares (followers of the beast) at the beginning, and the grapes at the ending. Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) Prayers of saints (Ch.6) Sixth Seal (Ch. 6)1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14 & 7) Seventh Seal (Ch. 8) a) Prayers of saints rise up to God (Ch.8) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19 & Verses 8:3-5) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14) a) wheat & tares (Ch. 14 & 19) b) grapes (Ch. 14)I think we can safely say that the sealing and rapture go hand in hand; because, the 144,000 came out of great tribulation (v. 7:14) being redeemed from the earth (v. 14:3). So, the rapture is included with the sealing as follows:
Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) Prayers of saints (Ch.6)Sixth Seal (Ch. 6)1) The 144,000 are sealed and enraptured (Ch. 14 & 7) Seventh Seal (Ch. 8) a) Prayers of saints rise up to God (Ch.8) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19 & Verses 8:3-5) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14) a) wheat & tares (Ch. 14 & 19)) b) grapes (Ch. 14)
So now it is simply a matter of adding the 3 woes as follows:
Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) Prayers of saints (Ch.6) Sixth Seal (Ch. 6) 1) The 144,000 are sealed and enraptured (Ch. 14 & 7) Seventh Seal (Ch. 8) a) Prayers of saints rise up to God (Ch.8) 2) The 1st Woe - Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19 & Verses 8:3-5, Ch. 9) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14 & 19) a) The 2nd Woe - wheat & tares (Ch. 14 & 9) b) The 3rd Woe - grapes (Ch. 14 & 11)
And the trumpets as follows:
Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) Prayers of saints (Ch.6) Sixth Seal (Ch. 6) 1) The 144,000 are sealed and enraptured (Ch. 14 & 7) Seventh Seal (Ch. 8) a) Prayers of saints rise up to God (Ch.8) 2) The 5th trumpet - The 1st Woe - Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19 & Verses 8:3-5, Ch. 9) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14 & 19) a) The 6th trumpet - The 2nd Woe - wheat & tares (Ch. 14 & 9) b) The 7th trumpet - The 3rd Woe - grapes (Ch. 14 & 11)
Since the trumpets are the warnings then the bowls are the action.
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