|
Post by gregt on May 20, 2017 7:57:40 GMT -6
While I tend to believe that 9/23/17 has some Biblical significance, I do not believe in a pre trib rapture. I have been wrestling when to bring this up, and I think I am seeing something which makes it time to do so.
The issue I am seeing more and more of is that the Rev. 12 sign equals the pre trib rapture teaching contradicts the pre trib rapture PILLAR of immanency. This is the basis of Crone and company's argument against the sign. While I don't like Crone and company, they have a valid point. When you imply that immanency is not correct, you are implying that the pre trib rapture was built on an error. It is probably just a matter of time before someone like John MacArthur publicly points this out. Please don't shoot the messenger but this starting to come to a head.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 9:11:21 GMT -6
I can't speak for everyone, but why do immanency and pre trib have to go together? I don't believe in immanency, at least like those Bible teachers teach it. I think it will be sudden and surprising for those not watching, but my Bible says those watching will not be caught off guard. We will see it coming.
I don't think we will know for sure the exact day, but I bet we'll have a good guess. Just my personal opinion on the matter.
|
|
|
Post by gregt on May 20, 2017 9:35:22 GMT -6
My personal experience, and I did a lot of research on this over the years, is that I never saw pre tribbers argue against imminency until this Rev. 12 interpretation came up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 9:46:26 GMT -6
From what I've seen there have always been times of greater expectation like Pentecost or Trumpets. I remember back in 2015 there was huge expectation on Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles.
I think some of these teachers take it too far. It's like they're trying to say the rapture is so surprising and unexpected that it won't fit any biblical patterns at all. I don't personally buy that. I think it will be the most perfect time when it happens. Probably on Trumpets, maybe on Pentecost. We won't know the exact day or hour, but there will be a lot of signs and expectation for those who aren't asleep.
Plus, these teachers aren't just defending their pet doctrine of immanency. They're also attacking the sign in Revelation 12 itself. They can't even entertain the possibility and they don't spend time really studying it.
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on May 20, 2017 12:16:08 GMT -6
I Thessalonians 5 says both, that the day will come like a thief in the night, and also, that that day will NOT take believers like a thief in the night--they will know it is coming.
Jesus also told us to watch for signs during His Olivet Discourse, and made it clear that we would know when the time was approaching. Also, that there would indeed be, signs in the heavens.
When Jesus said that no one knew the day or the hour, it is important to understand that He had not yet died and resurrected. God the Father had not revealed to Him yet when it would be. He did not mean it would be hidden forever until the last moment, from what I can see.
|
|
|
Post by Gary on May 21, 2017 9:47:50 GMT -6
I think Crone, Richardson, McHyde, and Faulkner are exposing a significant Scriptural shortcoming on their end.
For starters, none of them address the specific claims regarding the uniqueness of the sign. They build a "this isn't that special" strawman and then tear it down. That doesn't do anyone any good.
Second, they don't address the specific Scriptural claims made about how the child in Revelation 12 is actually the Church or the Church in union with Christ. They gloss over that. They gloss over the fact that Rev 12:5 plainly mentions the rapture. They don't spend any time discussing the difference between anabaino/epairo (to go up or ascend) and harpazo (to seize by force, to take, to snatch away).
They also make imminency in to something it's not - in my humble opinion. I pretty much agree with Tim and Jim above (:
|
|
|
Post by gregt on May 21, 2017 12:10:19 GMT -6
They gloss over the fact that Rev 12:5 plainly mentions the rapture. They don't spend any time discussing the difference between anabaino/epairo (to go up or ascend) and harpazo (to seize by force, to take, to snatch away). If the underlined statement is true, doesn't 2 Cor. 12 also plainly mention the rapture?
|
|
|
Post by Gary on May 22, 2017 8:40:20 GMT -6
They gloss over the fact that Rev 12:5 plainly mentions the rapture. They don't spend any time discussing the difference between anabaino/epairo (to go up or ascend) and harpazo (to seize by force, to take, to snatch away). If the underlined statement is true, doesn't 2 Cor. 12 also plainly mention the rapture? I would say yes, Paul's specific rapture. You're right though if the implication is we should be careful identifying the rapture in Rev. 12:5 with the rapture of the Church. To place the Church in that verse requires one to first identify the male child. However, my point would be that Darby, Ironside, Svigel, and others make a very strong argument (imho) that Jesus was never harpazo'd. Anabaino and epairo mean to ascend gradually or go up. For example, you could ascend up a mountain (i.e. climb). Harpazo, on the other hand, always refers to someone being acted upon instantaneously and forcefully by an outside force. Rolling ascension and rapture up into one word or concept imposes on the text something that isn't there.
|
|
|
Post by gregt on May 22, 2017 9:39:29 GMT -6
Thank you, Gary, that is exactly what I was getting at.
|
|
|
Post by findtruth on May 26, 2017 5:42:03 GMT -6
Where in the scripture is the doctrine of imminency mentioned? Are they using ' no one knows the day and hour ' as proof text?
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on May 26, 2017 6:02:01 GMT -6
Yes. I had two different preachers last night, on Facebook, adamant with me that I can not know the times and the seasons, either.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
|
|
|
Post by Gary on May 26, 2017 8:50:24 GMT -6
I'm hearing more about imminency now from pastors and teachers than I've ever heard before. I never remember this much push-back in 2015 with the blood moons, which is funny because nothing about the blood moons perfectly aligned in such a way as to indicate the rapture, except that the first blood moon was 1260 days before the Rev 12 sign.
At least as I understand it, "no one knows the day or hour" is the main proof text they use. The problem is, just pulling a verse out of its context doesn't help us to understand it. They need to study the context and cross-reference it. Line upon line, precept upon precept.
There are three more world-altering dates to come: the rapture, the second coming, and the end of the world at the end of the millennium. The Olivet Discourse explicitly talks about the latter two and maybe hints at the former, so it's difficult to understand which of the three, or which combination of the three Jesus was talking about:
Does no one know the date of the rapture?
Does no one know the date of the second coming / parousia?
Does no one know the date of the end of the world?
The disciples' question in Matt 24 was “Tell us, [1] when will these things be, [2] and what will be the sign of your coming [3] and of the end of the age?”
These things could refer to the Tribulation, but also to the 70 AD destruction of the Temple. The sign of your coming would refer to the second coming - His actual coming to Israel. The end of the age could refer to either the rapture (end of the Church Age / Age of Grace) or to the second coming (end of the age of Israel's dispersion and the end of the 6,000 year age of man).
There is also the question of duration. Jesus spoke these words in the form of a humble, human servant, not as the glorified and ascended Lord. Was Jesus saying that no one (including Himself) would ever know, or that no one presently (at His time) knew?
When I put all the pieces together, I'm inclined to view the Olivet Discourse as primarily dealing with the Tribulation, the AOD, the second coming and the Messiah's earthly return to Israel. I think there are hints or shadows within the passage about both the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and also the rapture, but I think the passage is focused on the Time of Jacob's Trouble.
If I'm right then "no one knows" would first and foremost apply to the second coming. Based on various commands for Believers to "watch" in addition to clear statements that Believers will know about the rapture (1 Thess 5:4, Rev 3:3) I'm inclined to interpret Jesus' statement as follows:
1. No one at the time of Jesus (Jesus included) knew the day or hour of the second coming. They also didn't know the day or hour of the rapture or end of the world.
2. After Jesus ascended and was glorified, He again had all prophetic knowledge just as He would have before the world began. He delivered much of this prophetic knowledge to Paul (who was caught up to the "third heaven" and later revealed the mystery of the rapture to the Church in 1 Cor. 15) and to John (see Rev 1:1). From Paul we now know there will be a rapture of living Believers ("we shall not all sleep") and from John we know the specific physical and spiritual events during, after, and shortly before the Tribulation. The prophet Daniel was told to "seal up" his prophecy until the time of the end, but John was told "seal not the prophecy... for the time is at hand". To me that is a very clear reversal. All needed prophetic knowledge is now revealed to the churches, except for whatever the "seven thunders" are.
3. Therefore, as Daniel 12 states, in the time of the end knowledge will increase and the wise will instruct many. We (only those Believers who are diligently watching) are no longer in darkness and so the day of Christ's appearing will not catch us by surprise. 1 Thess 5 and Rev 3 are as clear as crystal that He will not come to us like a thief, yet for those not watching, He will come just "as a thief in the night".
4. All this being said, I still think there could be a literal element to "no one knows the day or hour". It could be that Believers will basically know within days or within weeks of the actual rapture, but will not know the exact day or hour.
5. Lastly, there is also the possibility that Jesus was using an idiom for the F.O.T. - "no one knows" because it is the only feast on a new moon and it takes place over a two day period.
|
|
|
Post by findtruth on May 26, 2017 18:04:11 GMT -6
Thanks Gary! This answer to my question is very well thought out and it does make sense. I want to add that sometimes when passages of scripture are not absolutely clear like ' no one knows the day or the hour',it is important that we can speculate about it,but never add or take away from His word. I personally love to search and learn God's word, especially when it comes to prophecy.
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on May 26, 2017 22:37:08 GMT -6
Adam has a new video out again. I really appreciate his humility and soul-searching. It is something I have to go through too.
|
|
|
Post by findtruth on May 27, 2017 21:05:59 GMT -6
I found a great video by one of my favorite prophecy teachers. Please watch. He explains his views on this subject
|
|