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Post by venge on Apr 17, 2019 16:34:46 GMT -6
Thanks, mike ! have you ever considered changing your shirt in your avatar pic to a black and white vertical stripe with a whistle around your neck? haha, just joking. I'm so glad you and all the mods do such a wonderful and conscientious job here. I've been on many forums and this is by far the best I've ever participated in. venge , I agree that the catholic church pretty much only consumes these goods, although it does have a large stake in the oil business, but I think a lot of economies would suffer if the catholic church ceased is consumption. Stormyknight, I understand. I am not looking at it as a I'm right you're wrong. I am looking at it as markers. There are certain parameters that have to be met. So for me, I check the box of each parameter against everything possible till it meets the expectation of God's word in this prophecy. I try that is to do so...There are soo many opinions out there. But very rarely do people use scripture to bring out their opinions as more fact based. Biggest example I can give is this, and I see this ALL the time on random websites: The 4 beasts are: 1. Babylon: because of X(history), Y(Bible info) and Z(other sources) 2. Persian: because of X(history), Y(Bible info) and Z(other sources) 3. Grecian: because of X(history), Y(Bible info) and Z(other sources) 4. and the last is Rome And I am left think where is X and Y and Z. And before you find it, the writer is off describing his opinions on the legs and the iron and such and I am thinking scripture? No check, history? no check, other sources? no check, his own opinion that he is very opinionated on? Ding! lol but seriously, that is why I push hard. I don't want my opinion. I may want yours, but If I take your position or Mike's or someone else, I need 100% proof that fits every part scripturally line by line. That is how I take my faith because I need to know the truth to speak the truth. Look at this exert from Gotquestions.com No evidence, no facts to support it, no other scripture to use line by line. Nada. You cant make an opinion a fact. Not you Stormy, I mean anyone out there lol. Check out Christiantruthcenter.com I understand many believe this. I am not putting down your opinion. I am saying once again, no facts given. It is an opinion made to look like a fact and that is a lie. There is no scripture, no outside sources, nothing. Of course the Roman empire was brutal. It hardly crushed things to the ground. Actually it helped build cities and got the people to work and paid them for it. A happy people under your rule is good for the king. We can Ganghis Khan's people were the 4rth beast because they were brutal and crushed everything, or the Nazi's or the Ottomans or someone else. But those are opinions. We need facts that backed up scripture. Me personally, I believe that Mystery Babylon is a capitol city. I believe its people that live in the nation it dwells in are in great prosperity. I believe it does major trade deals with other countries and I believe it uses its power to choke countries that don't conform to its demands laying a heavy yoke on them. I believe the city doesnt need to be in the middle east but I do believe the beast empire needs to be there. I believe that this city, when it is attacked and falls, that the true heart of man will be tested. When money is worthless because of the market crashing around the world. When peoples hearts are focused on personal material things because of this cities fall and not others. When they turn themselves towards Sodom and not the safety of the cave like Lot's wife. I see Christians turning and their true hearts desire being the loss of their valuables. I see poverty because of it and not sharing your bread with others because of its scarcity. All things God warned us about not to do. Babylon's fall is soo important that is why so many pages talk of it. Its not just avenging the blood of the saints, its testing mankind in what they love. Now I went off on a rant...bah
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 17, 2019 16:49:08 GMT -6
so venge, you just defined as I see it! HA LOL!!!!! it could be a specific city, but really it is a global worldly tangled web, that is a mystery as to which one it really is, but it is a web over ALL of us.
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Post by venge on Apr 17, 2019 17:05:04 GMT -6
so venge , you just defined as I see it! HA LOL!!!!! it could be a specific city, but really it is a global worldly tangled web, that is a mystery as to which one it really is, but it is a web over ALL of us. Yeah, I hate it. I have dabbled into different cities and economics and such to see things. Its hard. A lot of people focus on the religious aspect, but that wasn't the focus. Its was believers left God for her sweets. The sweets are the trade that's why so much of it is pushed in Rev and in Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Isaiah about trade. I have looked at Dubai, NYC, Washington DC, Singapore, Beijing etc..cities that have substantial trade deals with much of the world. Cities that effect the kings of the earth like the text says. But I have yet to post a "it is....." thread because honestly, some of these cities are very much alike so its hard to make a solid determination. I can say this, if Paris is destroyed, it would hurt the world but not destroy trade. The same with London, Tokyo and a few others. But Dubai would hurt, most of the world uses their shipping ports. The USA would hurt, 50% of the worlds wealth down the tubes. Singapore would hurt big time too. But Singapore doesn't put a heavy yoke on its neighbors YET, neither does Dubai. Currently, its Washington DC that does that. To places like Mexico, Venezuala, Iran, Russia and such. We put heavy burdens on many countries that don't just effect the people in power but burdens on the people and that is contrary to God. Know any other countries that put a heavy yoke on their neighbors?
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Post by boraddict on Apr 17, 2019 18:38:20 GMT -6
Thanks, mike ! have you ever considered changing your shirt in your avatar pic to a black and white vertical stripe with a whistle around your neck? haha, just joking. I'm so glad you and all the mods do such a wonderful and conscientious job here. I've been on many forums and this is by far the best I've ever participated in. venge , I agree that the catholic church pretty much only consumes these goods, although it does have a large stake in the oil business, but I think a lot of economies would suffer if the catholic church ceased is consumption. The whistle should be golden and in his lips with a sparkling of light reflecting therefrom having a rainbow of colors enveloping a panorama of saints with several other judges with golden whistles intermingled throughout the group.
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Post by mike on Apr 17, 2019 19:11:20 GMT -6
Thanks, mike! have you ever considered changing your shirt in your avatar pic to a black and white vertical stripe with a whistle around your neck? haha, just joking. I'm so glad you and all the mods do such a wonderful and conscientious job here. I've been on many forums and this is by far the best I've ever participated in. venge, I agree that the catholic church pretty much only consumes these goods, although it does have a large stake in the oil business, but I think a lot of economies would suffer if the catholic church ceased is consumption. It's because I love you guys. We love you all and appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts and heart-felt convictions. When people disagree on a topic or don't see things the same way due to those strong convictions, emotions sometimes lead the conversation. We want to make sure that everyone remembers we are a family! Everyone who calls on His name! Maranatha!
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 17, 2019 19:43:23 GMT -6
Maybe its the global community that is Babylon. Maybe it's all of those cities combined, venge . You named seven cities. Could that be the seven hills? I think the "Mystery" part comes from Babylon's mystery religion, doesn't it? It is my understanding that the catholic church mimics this mystery religion. I'm just brainstorming now. I do appreciate your steadfastness in wanting proof and I know I let my opinion get in the way of my reason sometimes. Ok after writing the stuff above, I stopped. I didn't want to erase it so you could see my train of thought. I stopped and went back to scripture. This is what I found: Taking the verses and then going to the interlinear and reading it like I'm Yoda, it seems to put a different light on it.
"Here is(the) mind having wisdom. The seven heads seven mountains are where the woman sits on them. And kings seven there are. The five are fallen, the one is, the other not yet has come and when he shall have come, a little while, him, it behooves to remain." Rev 17:9-10 (I added the punctuation)
Notice it doesn't say the seven kings are kings of the mountains. I take it to mean the heads represent seven mountains(cities?) AND seven kings. This beast is the one that comes up out of the abyss. So what ever it is corporeally composed of, it is driven by the spirit of Apollyon/Abbadon.
Here is something else:
“Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters." verse 1 "“The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." verse 15 then: "And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.” verse 18
are the prostitute and the woman one and the same? because it says earlier in verse 5 that the woman is "Babylon the Great, the mother of prostitutes AND of the abominations of the earth."
So we have a great prostitute that sits over many waters(peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues) and a woman that sits on the scarlet beast(comes from the abyss)
First the angel says he is going to show John the punishment of the prostitute, but then takes him away and shows him the woman riding the beast and explains that vision, then he goes back to the explanation of the punishment of the prostitute:
"And the ten horns and the beast(not the seven mountains and seven kings) that you saw will hate the prostitute. They will leave her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and burn her with fire." verse 16
The woman is the mother of prostitutes, so there must be more than one prostitute. But this particular prostitute is the one with whom the kings of the earth are sexually immoral with, and those who dwell on the earth become intoxicated with the wine of her immorality. Sooo...the masses are enjoying watching her "have sex" with ten certain leaders of the world? I've always understood that the woman and the prostitute are one and the same, but now I'm not so sure. Which also leaves me wondering who they each are. Maybe one is Islam and one is the Vatican. I don't know.
barbiosheepgirl I apologize for the hijack. I think you are right that the destruction of Notre Dame is a marker of great importance. The symbolism cannot be missed by those who are watching. Perhaps counting the heads of those who treat her might be important also. Meaning, those financiers who pride themselves in being known for their contributions. People love hearing who the rich lavish their wealth upon...
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Post by Natalie on Apr 17, 2019 20:00:31 GMT -6
Does anyone want a separate thread, or just allow this to continue?
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Post by mike on Apr 17, 2019 20:26:24 GMT -6
I'd say let it run if the OP doesn't mind kjs
mike -- let it keep running, it is interesting to see all the points ......
(and used edit to make this comment .... )
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Post by cwood85 on Apr 17, 2019 21:06:06 GMT -6
I don't think so Mike. Stormy had stated: and I don't know what city Mystery babylon is either. I have multiple opinions on it. What I was pointing out was that there is a lot against the Vatican position because its not a kingdom like France, the UK, USA, UAE etc..it doesn't hold business like those countries, its not economy driven which would effect other nations like many countries are today. This is how you discuss things. Discussions are not always pretty but they are useful in dividing truth and gaining wisdom.
I tried to post a few picture to show you THE WORLD'S two most graven images but was unable to do it.
1. Catholics don't worship Mary, they pray to her. Catholic's believe in the very same Jesus all Protestants do. Islam denies Jesus is the Son of God and his death as well. <<< So do Orthodox Jews who practice Judaism. According to Judaism those who believe Jesus was the one true Messiah are part of a cult and worse. Psalm 53 is forbidden. They believe they are the light of the world and when their version of a Messiah comes, the entire world will convert to Judaism and know it as the true way to worship God. They are sacrificing a lamb this weekend to “cleanse” themselves of their sins because according to their religion, they have the power to do that. They also believe this will hasten the appearance of Messiah. So what is worse? Denying Jesus is the son of God or denying it and then trying to replace him and his sacrifice by elevating an entire religion above Him?
"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
This is the way I see it."
In my view there's no such thing as "mystery Babylon." Revelation 17:5 is simply stating that "Babylon the Great" is a mystery. So what does Babylon the Great mean?
Simply put it is a LARGE FALSE RELIGION. ISLAM!
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."
The wilderness is better translated THE DESERT.
John is taken into the desert to witness the judgment of the harlot that "sits upon" or ‘occupies’ this beast. Rome doesn't reside in the desert, The birthplace of Islam is in the desert of Saudi Arabia. Mecca and Medina reside in the desert of Saudi Arabia. That's why I don't see this as Rome, Catholicism, the pope, the EU, the U.S., the UN, or a unification of world religions. It is Islam.
"Sitteth upon many waters," implies this religion is worldwide and 'occupies' nearly every country on earth. She's identified as "Babylon the Great" which literally means, "A Large False Religion." The implication here is that Islam and the harlot's jihadist sects is the dominant religion of this beast.
Some people believe this harlot represents a cocktail of Catholicism and other Christians sects they call 'apostate Christianity' that dominate the world. In the interlinear, every word in verse 5 is singular other than "harlots and abominations." This is ONE LARGE FALSE RELIGION AND NOT an assorted blend of religions!
"And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication."
Think about the oppressive nature of Islam upon women and other religions. There are NO churches in Saudi Arabia but there are Mosque in nearly every country in the world. World leaders have committed fornication with the harlot by letting Islam proselytize its evil in their country, mostly for the sake of trade and inexpensive OIL. They know the evils that lurk in Islam but look the other way. It's obvious world governments are in bed with the Saudis the U.S. gives them huge subsidies all for the sake of huge corporate profits in oil.
In the US and Europe, Islam preaches hate and anti-semitism to its followers beginning with their children. They are intoxicated with "domination by abomination" even believing they will receive a mansion with as many as 72 bedrooms with a virgin in each one in paradise for committing the abominations of the earth. The amount of virgins they get is dependent upon the magnitude of the abomination they commit. Welcome to the Islam, Babylon the Great, the whore of Babylon.
"And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication." To 'SIT UPON' means to "occupy." That means Islam is the dominant religion of the beast. In Islam there's no difference between politics and religion, it's all the same. Islam is the religion that controls this beast. Most interpreters associate 'abominations' with idolatry. This may be true, but this harlot goes beyond that. Five times a day fanatical Muslims bow toward a black rock in the Kaaba in Mecca Saudi Arabia. The black 'skirt' around the Kaaba is considered to be a "woman's skirt" to Muslim's. Inside the Meccan mosque, and the inside of Saudi palaces are full splendor. Gold, purple, and precious stones are covered in them.
Jerusalem is the only city on planet earth that God has personally deemed as His own, and upon it there now stands an abomination called, "The Dome of the Rock." This is a graven iamge and so is the Kaaba.
There is no religion on earth more blasphemous than Islam.
The names of blasphemy? Denying Jesus as the Son of God. The false god Allah, the false prophet Muhammad, the false book the Koran which sanctions the killing of Christians and Jews, the false returning messiah the Mahdi, Virgins in paradise, suicide bombers, Akbar Allah, child brides, FGM, world domination, Sharia law, jihad, to name a few. Islam is 100% anti-Christ... The Dome of the Rock is at the geographically center of Jerusalem's seven MOUNTAINS. THIS IS THE ONLY PIECE OF GROUND GOD HAS CLAIMED AS HIS OWN IN THE BIBLE. This piece of ground is already occupied by the Meccan harlot's Dome of the Rock. Within the heart of Islam is the burning desire to take East Jerusalem into their own hands and use the anti-Christ monument called the Dome of the Rock complex as their headquarters of their worldwide Islamic Caliphate.
City of seven MOUNTAINS Rome IS NOT a city of seven 'mountains.'
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Some translations use the word HILL. The text uses the word 'oros' and its meaning is better translated 'mountain' NOT HILL. Rome does not sit on seven mountains! It doesn't even sit on seven hills! There are seven hills on the East side of the Tiber River. 'Vatican Hill' sits on the west side of the Tiber. THAT MAKES 8 HILLS TOTAL! AND! The 7 hills on the east side of the Tiber, are too small to be designated as 'mountains'. They are so small ranging from 200-500 feet that they appear as little nubs when viewed from a distance. Strong's specifically states that a hill is lower than a mountain.
The city of seven mountains is Jerusalem.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 18, 2019 4:04:47 GMT -6
Just a side note observation: It appears from the evidence provided by barb, venge, stormy, cw, jamie, etc. that there are multiple applications of "Mystery Babylon" (Rev. 17:7) each having genuine validity.
I have often considered that the fall of Babylon is the fall of the United States since Babylon will never fall until the US economy fails with its 22 trillion debt.
In support is my take on Revelation 8:7-8 that the beast makes his move and then the great mountain (the US) falls and this includes everyone that is Babylon with a sprinkling of cities and so forth. Thus, the beast comes first and then the fall of Babylon that is the power structure of Islam, finance, Jerusalem, Catholicism, etc. and everything else that provides order and structure to our world. When that structure is gone then the raw choice of good or evil is all that remains.
Perhaps Babylon represents everything that prevents us from living in peace and harmony.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 18, 2019 7:13:40 GMT -6
The name Lucifer in Hebrew is Heylel. It comes from the word 'halal' and it means, "The Morning Star." 1966 heylel hay-lale' from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:–Lucifer. Hilal in Arabic means…. Web definition Hilāl (هلال) is an Arabic word that means "crescent" or "new moon." It's an Islamic symbol! Heylal, Halal ,and Hilal means… Lucifer… aka Satan… aka the devil… and in Christian literature actually means… The Morning Star and Crescent Moon. Are you saying that Rev. 2:28 reads: "And I (Christ) will give him (that overcomes) the morning star (Satan)"?
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Post by mike on Apr 18, 2019 7:37:24 GMT -6
jamie said I agree with this and have considered a lot of what you claim about Islam. This entire religion is a religion of Satan, period. I did want to make one other observation about the quote Islam is anti-Christ, but anti-Christ is not solely Islam. It is anyone who denies the Son. before Islam was, Christ was denied - sadly unto this day He is still denied. As we look around at our own society it is very easy to see that we deny Him in nearly every area of culture. From trans-sexual, trans-gender, to self indulgence, to child murder, greed, lust, envy, hatred and so on. God forgive us!! 1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time...22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also ]. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
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Post by kjs on Apr 18, 2019 8:20:51 GMT -6
jamie said I agree with this and have considered a lot of what you claim about Islam. This entire religion is a religion of Satan, period. I did want to make one other observation about the quote Islam is anti-Christ, but anti-Christ is not solely Islam. It is anyone who denies the Son. before Islam was, Christ was denied - sadly unto this day He is still denied. As we look around at our own society it is very easy to see that we deny Him in nearly every area of culture. From trans-sexual, trans-gender, to self indulgence, to child murder, greed, lust, envy, hatred and so on. God forgive us!! 1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time...22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also ]. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
I agree with what mike says here and jamie you have raised many valid points ... but I think we need to be a bit careful any time we " create an us vs them" idea.
Yes, without a doubt the religion of Islam is "way off base" (in the mind of this Christian) and so we should be concerned with it's spread with society. Yet, these people are part of humanity and deserve our LOVE as well; in fact we are commanded to Love Our Enemies. Remember it is the "poisonous thoughts and ideas" of the religion Islam that deserve our rejection -- NOT THE PEOPLE who practice it.
NONE of US are perfect; we all have our Flaws -- whether that be Protestant Christians, Catholic Christians, Mormons; even Atheist people....
So jamie I urge caution -- please continue giving knowledge about all the "issues" with Islam ... but be careful when referring to the people practicing that religion -- Our response to them is to pray for them and if given a chance to witness to them about Jesus Christ and His Free gift.
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Post by venge on Apr 18, 2019 11:44:16 GMT -6
Conversation is all over the place lol, hard to pick a subject. OK, I cannot see Jerusalem as Babylon for a myriad of reasons. I am very aware of the verse that states it is responsible for the blood of saints etc...But Jerusalem is never destroyed forever with its smoke going up forever. Even in Rev 16 during the bowls, the great city is torn into 3. Its not fully destroyed forever. And its to be rebuilt as its not destroyed forever. Ezekiel and Zechariah talk about people going up to worship there in the reign of Christ. But, I do believe Mystery Babylon is the city described in the trumpets as a great mountain tossed into the city as ancient Babylon was described as such and its mention was being tossed into the city was never to be risen again. That would describe a different city because placing Jerusalem there would conflict with the earthquake in Jerusalem after that trumpet, the gathering in Jerusalem later on, the 2 witnesses in Jerusalem for 42 months and plenty of other reasons.
Mecca/Medina are not cities that hold wealth over the kings of the earth. If they were to be destroyed today, merchants wouldn't cry that trade and economies would be destroyed. Just Muslims would be upset as their religious center. It wouldn't effect the west economically. That posses a problem.
I think the religious attitude of Mystery Babylon is such, it doesn't have to be a religion we recognize as religion. Any worship contrary to God's is a religion. The harlot pulls us away to something else. That something else is our lusts of things in trade. That is what we worship.
Think about these verses:
In these cases of Rev 18, people are not upset cause people died. They are not upset that the city was destroyed. They are upset that because it is gone, they lose money, they cant buy the things they lust after or covet, they lost all the nice fun things in life. These 3 verses cannot describe the Vatican, Rome, Mecca/Medina, or Jerusalem today. The world doesnt depend on these places today for the things listed in these verses as the text suggest. Maybe tomorrow, but not today. Ezekiel 28:18 shows the King of Tyre was the same way. Its a great chapter to read that models Mystery Babylon
Or we can read about Ezekiel 27:12-24 and it explains how trade and pride was the main reason behind its destruction. It again follows the same model of Mystery Babylon
We are looking for a city and kingdom that controls all the other kingdoms through great trade. Enough to hold sway politically in the UN, enough to have people help them in their wars, enough to do real damage to other nations. The religion is lust to prosperity and idleness with no care for what is happening to the others that are suffering. Just my take.
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 18, 2019 11:47:58 GMT -6
jamie , I will also agree that Islam is 100% anti-christian, but I would add; so are all religions that either deny or ignore Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Also, something to keep in mind, Islam was no where to be found on the earth for nigh on 600+ years after Jesus Christ walked this earth, so any prophecy that has a dual fulfillment would have to be scrutinized vary carefully to identify Islam in it. This is not to say it's not. Islam is a very major player in today's world, so why wouldn't it be included. Similar to identifying the United States in prophecy.
I would also echo what kjs said about those within Islam, or Catholic, or any other religion as well. There have been some very powerful testimonies in the last couple of years of Islamic brothers and sisters who have had life changing dreams of meeting Jesus Christ. We must always pray. Everyone is a potential child of God.
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