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Post by mike on May 7, 2019 8:55:52 GMT -6
Well no... I know we are sealed Eph 1:13 but dont recall that I've read specifically on the head or hand. Where does it say that in scripture we are sealed on our heads or hands?
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Post by venge on May 7, 2019 9:02:26 GMT -6
Well no... I know we are sealed Eph 1:13 but dont recall that I've read specifically on the head or hand. Where does it say that in scripture we are sealed on our heads or hands? Deut 6:8 Deut 11:18-19 Exodus 13:9; 16 Ezekiel 9:4 Rev 7:3 Rev 9:4 Rev 14:1 Rev 22:4 And if you want more OT ones, I can give more.
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Post by mike on May 7, 2019 9:48:13 GMT -6
Well no... I know we are sealed Eph 1:13 but dont recall that I've read specifically on the head or hand. Where does it say that in scripture we are sealed on our heads or hands? Deut 6:8 Deut 11:18-19 Exodus 13:9; 16 Ezekiel 9:4 Rev 7:3 Rev 9:4 Rev 14:1 Rev 22:4 And if you want more OT ones, I can give more. Venge - I think the references are a stretch. I was aware of those in the OT, in fact some Jews do it still today. The NT are very likely all future dated, so we cannot be certain as to what those marks or seals may look like. We can compare the "marks" by analogy but the mark of the beast does specify "ON" or "UPON" and relates to buying and selling. Does the buying and selling refer to physical goods? I think so. Whereas those marked or sealed by the Holy Spirit are in context being told to spiritual beings instructing them to not harm those still needing to be sealed, etc. They arent sealed (yet) so we cannot make the definitive connection, as these are (most likely) future events. I get where you are going and saying with your examples, but I do believe that in order to buy or sell something there has to be something noticeable in the physical realm, rather than the spiritual Rev 7:3 - …2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, with the seal of the living God. And he called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel: Rev 9:4 - …3 And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 The locusts were not given power to kill them, but only to torment them for five months, and their torment was like the stinging of a scorpion.
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Post by venge on May 7, 2019 10:14:59 GMT -6
Deut 6:8 Deut 11:18-19 Exodus 13:9; 16 Ezekiel 9:4 Rev 7:3 Rev 9:4 Rev 14:1 Rev 22:4 And if you want more OT ones, I can give more. Venge - I think the references are a stretch. I was aware of those in the OT, in fact some Jews do it still today. The NT are very likely all future dated, so we cannot be certain as to what those marks or seals may look like. We can compare the "marks" by analogy but the mark of the beast does specify "ON" or "UPON" and relates to buying and selling. Does the buying and selling refer to physical goods? I think so. Whereas those marked or sealed by the Holy Spirit are in context being told to spiritual beings instructing them to not harm those still needing to be sealed, etc. They arent sealed (yet) so we cannot make the definitive connection, as these are (most likely) future events. I get where you are going and saying with your examples, but I do believe that in order to buy or sell something there has to be something noticeable in the physical realm, rather than the spiritual Rev 7:3 - …2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, with the seal of the living God. And he called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel: Rev 9:4 - …3 And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 The locusts were not given power to kill them, but only to torment them for five months, and their torment was like the stinging of a scorpion.You said, but I do believe that in order to buy or sell something there has to be something noticeable in the physical realm, I would not lead into my own inclinations. The OT specifies forehead and right hand. It is given to us to understand. Your argument is that it just has to be physical. That’s not shown and even Ezekiel shows that we are sealed in the head. Unless you can find scripture outside of one verse that says a mark of Satan Is physical, there is no line by line. I don’t see how you identify these as a stretch. The scripture is pretty specific. “You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. "You shall teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up.” This is God’s commandments. Bound on your forehead and your hand. Line by line...scripture backing scripture. I don’t guess what will happen. I search scripture to tell me. When I have time I will post again if I am able to but doing long shifts at work atm
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Post by mike on May 7, 2019 12:35:12 GMT -6
Thanks Venge, no worries. I am trying to understand your viewpoint and do. God wanted His law in our minds, hearts and hands (our works).
I'd prefer to hear your thoughts on how one would buy or sell without an apparent or unseen mark? To the earlier few comments, neither of us can see the sealing/mark we have today. If the mark of the beast is after the same manner, how would anyone know? Actions, speech, character?
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Post by Rick on May 7, 2019 12:50:56 GMT -6
Well no... I know we are sealed Eph 1:13 but dont recall that I've read specifically on the head or hand. Where does it say that in scripture we are sealed on our heads or hands? Deut 6:8 Deut 11:18-19 Exodus 13:9; 16 Ezekiel 9:4 Rev 7:3 Rev 9:4 Rev 14:1 Rev 22:4 And if you want more OT ones, I can give more. Hello venge, nice to meet you. I believe allot of us, (myself included) tend to take things out of context a bit. I'm not a long winded person so I'd like to take just one of your references, being Rev 7-3. We need to understand to whom God is speaking. We also need to realize that the book of Revelation is written to the Jewish people as an end times prophecy. And Rev 7-4 tells us specifically that.. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. of which I am certain I am not one of the hundred and forty and four thousand. There are a number of marks that God speaks of physical, spiritial, figurative. Seen or not seen is really just a mute point. As a member of the body of Christ Jesus I am fairly certain that I will already be in Heaven when all this takes place. I know we do not all unsnderstand or believe the same way. That being said, all this is just my understanding as lead by the spirit of Christ Jesus.
2Tim 2:15
The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Re 7:3–4). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
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Post by kjs on May 7, 2019 13:28:59 GMT -6
But the mark is going to be used to buy and sell. It's something visible. Natalie, Can you provide scripture that the mark “has to be physically visible” and not visible by ones fruit? Because I don’t know of any. In times past, belief was enough to buy and sell. Political affiliations are enough to buy and sell Sometimes cultural groups only buy and sell to their own Some Muslims only buy and sell to other Muslims. None of that is physical mark on the head. There is enough scripture that talks about the mark on the head and hand outside revelation and none of that scripture shows it to be physical, but spiritual. I think it is very clear in scripture ....
16And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark— the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is 666.…
First the "MARK" is visible -- since the second beast required ... to receive "a mark on their right hand or on their forehead" -- so this "MARK" has to be on right hand or forehead. Granted we so not know what the "MARK" looks like -- but based on the language -- it appears people will be able to "see" the Mark.
Next the Buying / Selling portion -- no one is able to do so without presenting the MARK Now granted this is open to interpretation -- so it could be some type of computer chip that actually records the transaction --- but the MARK is required for the transaction.
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Post by venge on May 8, 2019 12:04:10 GMT -6
Deut 6:8 Deut 11:18-19 Exodus 13:9; 16 Ezekiel 9:4 Rev 7:3 Rev 9:4 Rev 14:1 Rev 22:4 And if you want more OT ones, I can give more. Hello venge, nice to meet you. I believe allot of us, (myself included) tend to take things out of context a bit. I'm not a long winded person so I'd like to take just one of your references, being Rev 7-3. We need to understand to whom God is speaking. We also need to realize that the book of Revelation is written to the Jewish people as an end times prophecy. And Rev 7-4 tells us specifically that.. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. of which I am certain I am not one of the hundred and forty and four thousand. There are a number of marks that God speaks of physical, spiritial, figurative. Seen or not seen is really just a mute point. As a member of the body of Christ Jesus I am fairly certain that I will already be in Heaven when all this takes place. I know we do not all unsnderstand or believe the same way. That being said, all this is just my understanding as lead by the spirit of Christ Jesus.
2Tim 2:15
The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Re 7:3–4). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc. Rick, I am not suggesting you or I or anyone here is one of the 144k. You said, I disagree with you here on that. Revelation was written to the body of Christ. Jew/Gentile...all who believe in Christ. It was not written for those that are Jewish and antichrist.
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Post by venge on May 8, 2019 12:18:38 GMT -6
Natalie, Can you provide scripture that the mark “has to be physically visible” and not visible by ones fruit? Because I don’t know of any. In times past, belief was enough to buy and sell. Political affiliations are enough to buy and sell Sometimes cultural groups only buy and sell to their own Some Muslims only buy and sell to other Muslims. None of that is physical mark on the head. There is enough scripture that talks about the mark on the head and hand outside revelation and none of that scripture shows it to be physical, but spiritual. I think it is very clear in scripture ....
16And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark— the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is 666.…
First the "MARK" is visible -- since the second beast required ... to receive "a mark on their right hand or on their forehead" -- so this "MARK" has to be on right hand or forehead. Granted we so not know what the "MARK" looks like -- but based on the language -- it appears people will be able to "see" the Mark.
Next the Buying / Selling portion -- no one is able to do so without presenting the MARK Now granted this is open to interpretation -- so it could be some type of computer chip that actually records the transaction --- but the MARK is required for the transaction.
I think we can agree that the mark is on the forehead or the right hand. I had said such. As you said: Granted we so not know what the "MARK" looks like and again Now granted this is open to interpretation
I agree and again say that it does not have to be a physical mark. We don't have agree and we wont. But I say this to you, if you limit yourself to that only interpretation and it is not that...you will never see it.
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Post by mike on May 8, 2019 14:18:53 GMT -6
Venge - random thought on the mark being invisible
The mark is identified as 666, an unholy triune alliance maybe. Like "man, man, man" instead of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I see this mindset of me, me, me everywhere, all day, everyday
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 8, 2019 15:17:05 GMT -6
Venge - random thought on the mark being invisible The mark is identified as 666, an unholy triune alliance maybe. Like "man, man, man" instead of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I see this mindset of me, me, me everywhere, all day, everyday Amen. The root of bondage of man to his flesh is his pride that he creates his wealth, he decides what is moral concerning social choices, and even his understanding of salvation ( him saying to his self " I am worthy because of x,y, z, because of his forefathers or his denomination, the un-circumcised of heart). ( BTW, I am old school grammar rules and am not going to laboriously include the pronoun 'she' when it is implied. sadly, to me, that pronoun sensitivity is another form of social 'slavery', sorry,,,) Why am I saying this? because the list by whom the mark that can be taken: 16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, We are told by Paul (who would know...) There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.When In Christ, there is no demarcation (hmmm, mark-ation), but apart from Christ there is racism, hatred, envy, social justice deception, celebrity-ism, slavery (from child to women & to men, to you name it) and most of all Bondage to the FLESH!
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Post by kjs on May 8, 2019 15:40:32 GMT -6
I think it is very clear in scripture ....
16And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark— the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is 666.…
First the "MARK" is visible -- since the second beast required ... to receive "a mark on their right hand or on their forehead" -- so this "MARK" has to be on right hand or forehead. Granted we so not know what the "MARK" looks like -- but based on the language -- it appears people will be able to "see" the Mark.
Next the Buying / Selling portion -- no one is able to do so without presenting the MARK Now granted this is open to interpretation -- so it could be some type of computer chip that actually records the transaction --- but the MARK is required for the transaction.
I think we can agree that the mark is on the forehead or the right hand. I had said such. As you said: Granted we so not know what the "MARK" looks like and again Now granted this is open to interpretation
I agree and again say that it does not have to be a physical mark. We don't have agree and we wont. But I say this to you, if you limit yourself to that only interpretation and it is not that...you will never see it. Ok. if I be missing some please spell it out for me....
The text says -- Cause all to receive a MARK ... sounds like it is visible to me (what ever the mark may be) it is seen because it locates the position on the body.
Next -- it has to be visible to others to control the buying / selling -- that part I agree could be a computer chip --- but it still has to MARK them in some way for it to be "read" -- which may not be visible to eye sight -- but visible to scanner........
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Post by Natalie on May 8, 2019 16:40:25 GMT -6
If it's not a physical mark then how can buying and selling be controlled? How would someone at a grocery store know who to sell to? How would a supplier of goods know who to sell to? Could you describe a possibility?
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Post by fitz on May 8, 2019 17:02:28 GMT -6
I've always thought it to be a physical mark. Probably something high tech...two way communication and control. Sounds like Star Trek, but thats what I imagine.
STRONGS NT 5480: χάραγμα χάραγμα, χαράγματος, τό (χαράσσω to engrave); a. a stamp, an imprinted mark: of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of Antichrist, Revelation 13:16; Revelation 14:9, 11; Revelation 15:2 Rec.; Revelation 16:2; 19:20; 20:4 (πυρός, the mark branded upon horses, Anacreon () 26 (55), 2). b. thing carved, sculpture, graven work: of idolatrous images, Acts 17:29. (In various other senses in Greek writings from Sophocles down.)
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 8, 2019 21:00:00 GMT -6
I've always thought it to be a physical mark. Probably something high tech...two way communication and control. Sounds like Star Trek, but thats what I imagine. STRONGS NT 5480: χάραγμα χάραγμα, χαράγματος, τό (χαράσσω to engrave); a. a stamp, an imprinted mark: of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of Antichrist, Revelation 13:16; Revelation 14:9, 11; Revelation 15:2 Rec.; Revelation 16:2; 19:20; 20:4 (πυρός, the mark branded upon horses, Anacreon () 26 (55), 2). b. thing carved, sculpture, graven work: of idolatrous images, Acts 17:29. (In various other senses in Greek writings from Sophocles down.) yes, but lets just take another part of Revelation for a moment: They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb
according to the greek this word mountain is oros, or literally a mountain. HOW can a literal mountain FALL on some shameful people? Even though the words in revelation have literal definitions and greek and strong's meanings, John is in the SPIRT! He is seeing the Spiritual representation of EVERYTHING in this great Revealing, shown to him by the Angel of Jesus! So, by my deduction, this can include the term MARK, imho. I thought I'd bring it up to challenge the literalists in the crowd. I have more examples if you want. John is seeing it all from the heavenly perspective (or, literally, IN THE SPIRIT), so anything he writes down is the only way he can describe it and it does not mean it is literal PHYSICAL. We unknowingly take/receive, really, a mark when we are anointed by the Holy Spirit. Do we see it? no, can we feel it? yes sometimes. Does it seperate us? yes it can physically, when it comes to how we deal with this world. It certainly separates us when viewed from the Spiritual. disclaimer: my capital letters are not in anger or bitterness or in trying to make ME be right. I am just emphasizing my point in this debate.
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