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Post by kjs on Jun 12, 2017 6:48:22 GMT -6
Watched a few videos this weekend from Youtube over the revelation 12 sign; most just contained the common items already mentioned multiple times before. One came from a Pastor named Mark (sorry did not catch his full name, nor his church name). He raised one point which I have not heard before and decided to share in case others have not heard about this validation either.
Matthew 24 “30 Then the sign that is the Son of Man will appear in the sky,….” (ISV)
Matthew 24 “30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man,…” (ESV)
Got Chills when I saw this in “Black and white”, so to speak
A Heavenly Sign – that represents the Son of Man (that is the Rev 12 sign)
And this sign is supposed to appear at the end of days……..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 8:35:48 GMT -6
I see what you mean! We've seen that - but yet it was more of that "hidden manna" that he is revealing! Thank you for sharing!
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 12, 2017 18:49:40 GMT -6
I was looking at this recently. The word "Then" implies that all the other things mentioned happen FIRST. Or at least the preceding several things. . . .
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 12, 2017 18:54:09 GMT -6
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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Post by kjs on Jun 13, 2017 8:06:40 GMT -6
watchmanjim – you seem to be like me – I like to take things logically apart and organize them in such a way – so I can say – this happens and then this happens, and this other thing is happening, but appears to require this other thing to happen first.
Unfortunately, it does not appear Biblical Prophecy works like that….
Let us take an example from Jesus actions……..
In Luke 4:18 – we learn Jesus was given the scroll of Isaiah to read -- so Jesus reads most of Isaiah 61 – but stops at a COMMA and rolls up the scroll and proclaims
“Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor, (the comma Jesus stopped at)
and the day of vengeance of our God; (also note: there are roughly 41 words after this semicolon to finish the sentence)
It appears to me; that God the Father -- DOES NOT want just anyone to read the prophecy and know the exact order of events.
If He did then the Bible would read like a recipe cook book --- where each step is laid out – within indicated time pauses between each step (for a stirring here, or a blending here, or a heating here).
God it seems to prefer the mystery – the unknown – to remain unknown – until such a time as it should be KNOWN.
So Yes, when I see phrases that – say AND THEN ….
I too want to be able say – then this event has to occur after this event….
BUT most of the time it does not seem to work that way………..
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Post by Gary on Jun 13, 2017 8:30:34 GMT -6
This is very interesting. I've seen some pretty solid arguments for keeping Matt. 24-25 in the Trib and pertaining to the believing remnant at that time. I've also seen some solid arguments for interpreting some of it as pertaining to the rapture.
I'm wrestling with the possibility it isn't either/or, but both/and. There is biblical precedent for some prophecies to be fulfilled two or more times. Two examples:
1. Psalm 16:8-11. Original prophecy was about David's hope of resurrection. Ended up as a prophecy of Christ's resurrection (Acts 13:35).
2. Hosea 11:1. Originally about the Exodus, but became a prophecy of Jesus literally coming out of Egypt as a child (Matthew 2:15).
Here are my thoughts on the Olivet Discourse:
1. I can't argue much with the strict dispensational view of Matthew 24-25. When you don't recognize this as a passage pertaining to Israel you end up with some pretty wonky doctrine (works-righteousness, preterism, post-tribulationism, etc).
2. On the other hand, some of it seems to apply especially to the conditions right before the Day of the LORD/Tribulation begins. "As in the days of Noah", "As in the days of Lot", virgins asleep, etc. Life seems completely normal. No commentator has ever satisfactorily reconciled this enigma with the conditions at the end of the Trib because at the end of the Trib the world is largely destroyed and the remaining armies are amassing near Jerusalem. Most of the world's population is dead, most vegetation is burned up, a third of the ocean is blood, giant meteors have crashed into the earth, and so forth.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 8:42:56 GMT -6
I agree, Gary. The days of lot and the days of Noah are full of life and no cares... although dead souls. At the end of the tribulation, we do not see a time of life with no cares...we see a time of death and distress upon the earth.
Not the ssme....
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Post by kjs on Jun 13, 2017 11:46:53 GMT -6
I am by NO MEANS an expert! It may be possible these items have multiple fulfillment or, it could be that the "ORDER" was messed up (either on purpose or accidentally -- though I would think there are no accidents)
Notice chapter 24 has multiple sections -- each section covers a main topic ... but it appears each topic is not in chronological order.
1) One topic is the prediction of the destruction of the Temple.
2) One topic is Cults, Revolutions, Famines, and Earthquakes
3) One topic is Future Persecution, Apostasy, and Evangelism
4) One topic is about what Daniel saw and prophesied
5) One topic is the return of the Son of Man (more on this later)
6) One topic is Lesson of Fig Tree
7) One Topic is being watchful / being faithful / wicked servants
Now, almost all of us take the Fig Tree lesson -- as the return of Israel to the Land
(but that topic is found at the end -- after Daniel's prophecy within this list -- but appears to have happen before it -- in "real time")
The topic Son of Man -- (verses 29 thru 31) -- seems to MATCH very close to Revelation 12:1-6.
Yes the order appears to be different .....
BUT LOOK verse 29 says the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers from the heavens will be disrupted.
Revelation 12: 4 Its tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky and knocked them down to the earth.
Revelation 12: 7 Then a war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels fought back.
So first part of verse 29 matches 12:4 while the second part matches 12:7
Revelation 12:1-2 is a heavenly sign pointing to the Virgin Birth (or the Son of Man) -- Matt 24:30 -- Then the sign that is the Son of Man will appear in the sky(heaven)
And of course -- verse 31 -- reads like a description of the RAPTURE
a loud trumpet blast
gather his elect from the four winds
which aligns with Rev 12:5 -- for being caught up..............
I am telling you, the more I compare Matt 24:29-31 with Revelation 12 --- I get goose bumps about how close they are aligning....
I have no answer why the "order" appears to be so off -- as in each topic not following chronologically the other topics .....
But this is definitely a HMMMM... moment for me...........
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 12:13:48 GMT -6
What I see in Matthew is this... This was said before the cross. So at that moment, Israel knew of a coming 70th week of tribulation as prophesied yet to come. THAT'S ALL THEY KNEW. They knew NOTHING about the grace period that was coming. They still didn't even understand what he had been telling them about HIM! See JOhn 17:They did not know at Matthew 24, that he wasn't going to go away for a very long time. He did not reveal ' the time of grace' to the Jewish believers. It was 'the" mystery! It was not until AFTER HIS death, and only to Paul was the mystery revealed. And even then, Paul thought the wait time would be short, thus the Thessalonian verses.
So Read the Matthew from a Jewish believer point of view and having no knowledge of the grace to come... and instead having a mindset of crucifixtion and then the 70th week to set in. And then see where time stops and grace would have been inserted before picking up the sentence.
Back to work...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 12:32:16 GMT -6
for Instance...
Look at Joel 2:32 - And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered. - Before the cross - Vengence was coming toward Judah at full speed
Now Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. - After the cross - 'saved' showing a fuller meaning of "delivered".
Timing.... |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 13, 2017 19:02:12 GMT -6
I agree that it is all very confusing, and the order of things can be very tricky. I believe God did make it this way on purpose, to make us have to dig and labor for the meaning. But I do believe we can learn and know the meaning of any Scripture, especially if and as we abide with the Lord and ask Him to reveal meanings.
One more thought.
What if----------------- the "sign of the Son of Man" is NOT the Revelation 12 sign, but another sign to come later? Such as the binary star scheduled to go supernova in a few years in the constellation of Cygnus the swan, which is also shaped like a cross?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 19:11:59 GMT -6
Since I'm not finding that one in Scripture, I'm not sure about that one. Lol! I'm going to just continue to love on the one who loves me. In total ignorance of everything else, I am safe in the knowledge of what he has done for me.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 13, 2017 19:15:20 GMT -6
Very true, Truthseeker, and as I said, these things are definitely confusing. But I ask-- what is the Sign of the Son of Man? Is not the Revelation 12 sign the Sign of the Woman and her child? Is it also what Jesus meant by the Sign of the Son of Man? It may very well be, if and because He comes at that time. But I'm still not sure I have all the pieces of the puzzle.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 19:28:54 GMT -6
something about it just came to my mind, let me hunt for it and I'll get back,,,
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Post by whatif on Jun 13, 2017 19:41:38 GMT -6
What if----------------- the "sign of the Son of Man" is NOT the Revelation 12 sign, but another sign to come later? Such as the binary star scheduled to go supernova in a few years in the constellation of Cygnus the swan, which is also shaped like a cross? I am wondering the same, watchmanjim! If I were to pick two good possibilities for the sign of the Son of Man, one would certainly be a Cross and the other would be the Revelation 12:1-2 sign. After all, His first coming involved the virgin birth, so it makes sense to me that His second coming might be signaled by symbols related to His first coming. And on the other hand, the Cross is the symbol that all Christians understand and identify as His. The supernova, from what I understand will for a while create a new brilliant light in the sky at the Cross in the heavens. Wouldn't that be amazing? |
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