paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
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Post by paul on Jun 25, 2017 19:27:13 GMT -6
There are 3 different views of the rapture: pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib. I agree now with all of them.  Some of them is just mistaken to apply those raptures to the church. It’s just an old "church" habit of trying to fit shoes that don’t belong to her.  1) PRE-TRIB: (1 Thes 4:16-17; Rev 4:1) This is the rapture of the church believers (Jews and Gentiles). This group is represented in Heaven by the 24 elders (OT & NT Jews) and 4 living creatures (Gentiles, 4-corners of the earth) (Rev 5:8-9) 2) MID-TRIB: (Rev 11:12) This is the rapture of the 2 witnesses (Jews & Gentiles, Moses was a Jew and Elijah was a Gentile) and/or 144,000 (Jews) and tribulation believers (Gentiles). They are represented by the great multitude with palm branches (Rev 7:9) [Parable of 10 Virgins] 3) POST-TRIB: (Matt 24:31) This is the rapture of the God’s elect (Jews). They are represented by those who have the victory over the beast and the number of his name. (Rev 15:2) [Parable of the Talents] The post-trib Gentiles will be saved during sheep & goats judgement. [Parable of Sheep and Goats] |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 19:58:03 GMT -6
Paul,
I was confused by that for awhile - I kept seeing three 'taking aways'. I started out at post, moved to mid, and then move to PREtrib when I began to see all the other scriptures and realized that the 70th week was the end(last 7 years) were the end of a final judgement on ISRAEL. I noticed that the last seven years was a new testament BOOK but an old testament PROPHECY, not having been described until 90ad, written in Greek, that was dealing with ISRAEL.
Some believe in pre-wrath rapture too. How do you see that fitting in?
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Post by Gary on Jun 25, 2017 20:13:48 GMT -6
Interesting theory, Paul. I think we could definitely all agree there are at least three explicit resurrections during the Trib:
Pre-trib - Church and possibly OT saints
Mid-trib - Two Witnesses
Post-trib - Trib Saints and/or Jewish remnant and/or OT saints
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jun 26, 2017 6:32:15 GMT -6
Paul, I was confused by that for awhile - I kept seeing three 'taking aways'. I started out at post, moved to mid, and then move to PREtrib when I began to see all the other scriptures and realized that the 70th week was the end(last 7 years) were the end of a final judgement on ISRAEL. I noticed that the last seven years was a new testament BOOK but an old testament PROPHECY, not having been described until 90ad, written in Greek, that was dealing with ISRAEL. Some believe in pre-wrath rapture too. How do you see that fitting in? Even though I am a believer in the pre-trib rapture, there are more verses about mid-trib or post-trib rapture. The timing of the church rapture isn’t that clear. In 1 Cor 15 Paul says that it will be at the last trumpet, and in 1 Thes 5 he says it’s gonna be at night and probably during some kind of total darkness all over the earth like when Jesus was crucified, because if in one place its a night then in another is a day. Personally, the only clear verse that the rapture is before the tribulation is Rev 4:1 and to some extend Rev 3:10. As for the pre-wrath view, I believe that the Jews (God’s elect/Woman of Rev12) will be raptured at the near end of the GT but before the wrath of God. Right before the seven angels was about to pour out the seven last plaques, John saw those who have the victory over the beast and his mark. (Rev 15:1-2) Since the mark of the beast will be implemented during the second half of the GT these must be the rest of the Jews or the woman of Rev 12. They were standing over the sea of glass mingled with fire. This sea represents the Law of Moses, because when the Lord came down to the mt Sinai under His feet was like a sapphire stone (blue) and fire. The sea and fire also represent the curse and condemnation of the Law. The symbolic meaning of it is the Jews are no more under the Law of Moses but above the law and under grace. That’s why they sang the song of Moses who represents the Law and the song of the Lamb who represents grace. “For the law was given through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” Hallelujah! I love this verse. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 7:09:52 GMT -6
That is wonderful to hear you say, Paul! That is exactly as I see it and you are a second witness to me on that. I feel like those who take the pre-wrath viewpoint are definitely looking through a Jewish lens and not through the new covenant's lens.
My favorite pre-tribulation verses or in Deuteronomy 20!
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Post by kjs on Jun 26, 2017 7:52:21 GMT -6
The one thing I have against the Post-Trib rapture is the timing of the events.
There is a group of people who will populate the 1k reign of Jesus Christ. These people will enter the kingdom and continue to have children. If we assume a person who is raptured – is also one who receives their new body – then who is the group that will be having the children?
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 26, 2017 8:01:06 GMT -6
I do not doubt there will be more than one rapture, and/or resurrection, but please let us not assume that every rapture is a resurrection, or that every resurrection is a rapture. Nor that every resurrection or rapture involves glorification.
Rapture = to be caught up off the earth unto God.
Resurrection = to have one's dead body restored to life.
Glorification = to have one's body upgraded to its perfected, immortal state.
One other factor to consider is whether a rapture is temporarily being summoned unto God, or permanently.
In the Old Testament accounts of Enoch and Elijah, we know they were raptured (caught up) but we do not know if they were glorified.
In the case of (evidently) Paul being caught up (raptured) temporarily into the heavenlies, he was not kept there permanently, nor was he glorified, but he was sent back.
In the church rapture, we will be raptured, resurrected (as needed), AND glorified, AND, we will be with God (Jesus, anyway) permanently. ("So shall we ever be with the Lord.")
In the case of Lazurus, he was resurrected, but not glorified. We assume he died again when he got old. This would be the case with the several other people who were raised from the dead in the Bible.
In the case of the Two Witnesses, we understand them to be resurrected, raptured, and evidently glorified.
Those cases are fairly easy to deal with. Where it gets tricky, is when we apply these criteria to other groups of people during and at the end of the 70th week. These groups include the martyrs who are killed during the week, the 144,000, and all the survivors (Jews and Gentiles) who make it through to the end of the 70th week. This last group MAKES IT OUT ALIVE and is neither resurrected nor glorified. However, they may be raptured, or more properly summoned, from afar, to come to Jerusalem to meet the Lord. Isaiah indicates the women will outnumber the men drastically, and people will settle down to marry and repopulate. But we know that nobody who is glorified will be procreating. (This is evident from how the Lord responded to a Saducee's question about whose wife a woman would be in the resurrection). Various verses indicate that if the live people are not easily able to return to Jerusalem, God will gather them from wherever they may be, even if they are exiled in outer space. (Deuteronomy).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 9:10:22 GMT -6
There is a guy that was interviewed on olive tree ministries, I know I know, but I had heard him preach for years before I heard him being interviewed on olive tree ministries. He is a professor and did quite the unusual lay out Of what the millennium looks like and was all about. I will try to locate it today and post it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 4:23:25 GMT -6
This is it-, please get into about 1 minute and past Jan Markell's intro, as it talks about The last interview she did on kingdom dominion theology which was bogus. But that is not the B of a in the woods. We watched him for years with the college of biblical studies and he is very sound. Bill Koenig was interviewed and Andy woods in the same interview. But I found Andy's view of the millennium quite different than I had expected.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 27, 2017 6:50:03 GMT -6
Good message, yes, I think they were right on track.
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jun 28, 2017 2:08:05 GMT -6
Interesting theory, Paul. I think we could definitely all agree there are at least three explicit resurrections during the Trib: Pre-trib - Church and possibly OT saints Mid-trib - Two Witnesses Post-trib - Trib Saints and/or Jewish remnant and/or OT saints Good point Gary. A resurrection usually associated with a great earthquake, like when Jesus was raised. (Matt 28:1-2). There are three great earthquakes mentioned in the book of Revelation: 1) During 6th Seal 2) During 6th Trumpet and the resurrection of 2 witnesses. 3) During 7th Bowl |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 7:03:49 GMT -6
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Quakes.....the the Lord shall utter his voice.
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andrew
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Still here...till the end.
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Post by andrew on Aug 3, 2017 3:35:31 GMT -6
Speaking of raptures, by my understanding Enoch is the first type of the rapture. I was just looking through my Companion Bible, with appendices by E.W. Bullinger. His estimate of the year of Enoch's rapture...3017 B.C.!
I know the dates could be wrong, as there is a range of several years for them, but WOW! Exactly 5000 years ago was the first rapture!
It's on appendix page #71 at the end of appendix #50.
On the down side, Noah wasn't born until 69 years later, so let's hope the days of Noah timeline isn't that strict.
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 3, 2017 10:15:52 GMT -6
Actually, not 5000 years ago, but 5034 years ago, because of the BC vs AD thing. But the number is still relevant in my opinion. Good find! |
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andrew
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Still here...till the end.
Posts: 99
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Post by andrew on Aug 3, 2017 10:32:40 GMT -6
Ahh...late night math. Yes, after a good nights sleep, that does add up different🤓
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Some of them is just mistaken to apply those raptures to the church. It’s just an old "church" habit of trying to fit shoes that don’t belong to her. 
