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Post by mike on Sept 12, 2017 10:36:12 GMT -6
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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Post by socalexile on Sept 12, 2017 10:38:44 GMT -6
As a append to my above here is one text commonly referred to "walk the straight and narrow" 1Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.Context - carnal christians who were still practicing those things. Doesnt mean those who "fall" or even habitually "practice" are not saved. It is encouraging them to no longer do these things as they have been cleansed. But many preachers fall to the theme of "maybe youre not saved if youre still doing these things" The problem with how preachers use that verse, is how they leave out certain sins listed there. These two verses literally leave no one out of the mix. This condemns EVERYONE, especially given the standard of adultery given in Matthew 5. So they can't use v.9 to eternally condemn homosexuals for their sin and not eternally condemn themselves. The worst thing about it is that the context of this is the use of the unbelieving Roman legal system to sue believers. Paul only brings up these sins and what is said in v.11 as a means of setting up and reminding the Corinthians that the only thing separating them from the world is the blood of Christ, in which they are IMPUTED righteousness per Romans 4. Yet these verses are misused to say the exact opposite. |
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Post by mike on Sept 12, 2017 10:53:19 GMT -6
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death
I quoted myself, LOL! I wanted to compare these two side by side to see if there was consistency, and I believe they are quite different. 1 Cor is as SoCal said to believers... Rev 21 seems to deal with those are promoting false religions or idolatry. Similar to those false gods who the Israelites ran after in the OT, where the Lord was always calling them back from. fearful - 1169 deilós (an adjective derived from deidō, "fear-driven") – properly, dreadful, describing a person who loses their "moral gumption (fortitude)" that is needed to follow the Lord. unbelieving - 571 ápistos (from 1 /A "not" and 4103 /pistós, "faithful," see there) – properly, not faithful because unpersuaded, i.e. not convinced (persuaded by God). 571 /ápistos ("faithless, unpersuaded") does not always refer to the unconverted – see Jn 20:27. 571 (ápistos) describes someone who rejects or refuses God's inbirthings of faith (note the root, faith, 4102 /pístis) abominable - Cognate: 948 bdelýssō – properly, stink, become foul (abhorrent), detestable as stench; "to strongly detest something on the basis that it is abominable – 'to abhor, to abominate' " (L & N, 1, 25.186). See 946 (bdelussō). murderers - Cognate: 5406 phoneús – a murderer, committing unjustified, intentional homicide. See 5407 (phoneuō). whoremongers - 4205 pórnos (from pernaō, "to sell off") – properly, a male prostitute. 4205 (pórnos) is "properly, 'a male prostitute' (so Xen., etc.); in the NT, any fornicator" (Abbott-Smith); i.e. anyone engaging in sexual immorality. See 4202 (porneia). Cognate: 5332 pharmakeús – a person using drug-based incantations or drugging religious enchantments; a pharmakeus-practitioner who "mixes up distorted religious potions" like a sorcerer-magician. They try to "work their magic" by performing pseudo "supernatural" stunts, weaving illusions about the Christian life to use "powerful" religious formulas ("incantations") that manipulate the Lord into granting more temporal gifts (especially "invincible health and wealth"). This has a "drugging" effect on the aspiring religious zealot, inducing them to think they have "special spiritual powers" (that do not operate in keeping with Scripture). See 5331 (pharmakeía). idolator - image worshipper liars - false, lying, false witness
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Post by socalexile on Sept 12, 2017 11:02:56 GMT -6
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death
I quoted myself, LOL! I wanted to compare these two side by side to see if there was consistency, and I believe they are quite different. 1 Cor is as SoCal said to believers... Rev 21 seems to deal with those are promoting false religions or idolatry. Similar to those false gods who the Israelites ran after in the OT, where the Lord was always calling them back from. fearful - 1169 deilós (an adjective derived from deidō, "fear-driven") – properly, dreadful, describing a person who loses their "moral gumption (fortitude)" that is needed to follow the Lord. unbelieving - 571 ápistos (from 1 /A "not" and 4103 /pistós, "faithful," see there) – properly, not faithful because unpersuaded, i.e. not convinced (persuaded by God). 571 /ápistos ("faithless, unpersuaded") does not always refer to the unconverted – see Jn 20:27. 571 (ápistos) describes someone who rejects or refuses God's inbirthings of faith (note the root, faith, 4102 /pístis) abominable - Cognate: 948 bdelýssō – properly, stink, become foul (abhorrent), detestable as stench; "to strongly detest something on the basis that it is abominable – 'to abhor, to abominate' " (L & N, 1, 25.186). See 946 (bdelussō). murderers - Cognate: 5406 phoneús – a murderer, committing unjustified, intentional homicide. See 5407 (phoneuō). whoremongers - 4205 pórnos (from pernaō, "to sell off") – properly, a male prostitute. 4205 (pórnos) is "properly, 'a male prostitute' (so Xen., etc.); in the NT, any fornicator" (Abbott-Smith); i.e. anyone engaging in sexual immorality. See 4202 (porneia). Cognate: 5332 pharmakeús – a person using drug-based incantations or drugging religious enchantments; a pharmakeus-practitioner who "mixes up distorted religious potions" like a sorcerer-magician. They try to "work their magic" by performing pseudo "supernatural" stunts, weaving illusions about the Christian life to use "powerful" religious formulas ("incantations") that manipulate the Lord into granting more temporal gifts (especially "invincible health and wealth"). This has a "drugging" effect on the aspiring religious zealot, inducing them to think they have "special spiritual powers" (that do not operate in keeping with Scripture). See 5331 (pharmakeía). idolator - image worshipper liars - false, lying, false witness You MUST read the bible with the lens of the Gospel. Our righteousness is IMPUTED to us, and we are covered by the blood of Jesus. Those in 1 Cor 6:9-10 and Rev. 21 (Matthew 7:21-23 also) aren't covered, so they have their sin imputed to them. if you don't consider the Gospel when reading these condemnations, you will have a confusing theology that mixes grace and works. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 12, 2017 18:08:15 GMT -6
socalexile , you are helping me for sure. I told mom about it, and she had similar stuff that I told her to contribute. (Must help her learn how to post in discussion...) I as a meat-eating level Christian do get frustrated when I see an anonymous comment that is "off base." My initial reaction is that of a weak babe. THEN, I think it out, lay it out in the Discussion board and get some feedback that parallels or equals my understanding. For example, mike, who quoted the same Scripture as I had and we were simultaneously trying to get a grip on this works/faith, salvation, witnessing entanglement. (and, socal, I referenced the Bema seat in my first reply in agreement with what you said in reply, so that helped me feel confident). socalexile , you mentioned that nearly all the letters Paul wrote were to believers, am I correct? Perhaps pastors/leaders get used to having saved people around them and preach as if everyone around them is saved. Ya know, high end chefs, feeding them prime rib. Then the pastors say we should be disciples for the Lord, but we have been inundated with meat doctrine. We forget the simple message of Salvation. My personal stumbling block, I guess... Praise the LORD this website is here. I have had more fellowship and understanding than anything that would have happened near me (short of my mom and my closest girlfriend). I have been trying to witness to my husband and he insists that church is "a waste of time" or even " a bunch of crock." I dont blame him. the Gospel/Salvation message is muddied into works that leaves him with no idea (or capability) of how to "measure up." (his general perception) This is what works-added does to the gospel, in my humble opinion (IMHO). This is sad for my husband because it truly IS so simple. The hardest part is admitting you are a sinner. To admit a sinner than you are saying that the story of Adam and Eve is true. And if you have been fed evolution your whole life, how the heck do you acknowledge you are a sinner!!!!!!!! ugh, so it goes on.... I would never be a good 6th grade science teacher as I would be so wanting to explain the intricacies of genetics, the DNA miracle, that those 6th graders would glaze over! The miracle of water as a compound that gets LESS DENSE in its frozen state...AND, not to mention it can exist in all three physical forms at our atmospheric level...again, CRICKETS! I think that is what works-as-evidence as a believing, solid doctrine-believing Christian does to an unsaved babe when trying to lead them to Christ. Some muddy those waters so badly that the simple message is missed, and like sawdy , just quit listening... thanks a lot, you evil Deceiver...the root of evil and deception...I bind that deception in the Name of the Lord Jesus!...so there. As a Meat-eater, those big ministries have helped me for my Christian Walk...maybe not so much as a witness to keep the Gospel where it is supposed to be: simple, and clear: The gift of Grace by God, thru His gift of His Son (and what He did on the cross and afterward) because we are ALL sinners and fall short of his Grace... I will stop ranting, or will be writing a book with tiffanybw ! Love my sister tiff, and her rants!! Thanks socal and mike!...and sawdy...
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Post by mike on Sept 12, 2017 18:20:43 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl - or as I like to read your name "Babs" 😁 Glad to help but I didn't do much. I was trying to understand as well and (I'll say this) the Lord led me to 1Cor 6 and the Rev 21. I was trying to apply what SoCal said as Paul wrote to the church (believers) in 1 Cor saying they should separate themselves from what they used to do and compare that to those who are judged/damned in Rev. But glad to help either way. That's what we're I'm here for. Help my brother's & sisters and learn from them all I can so I can apply that to my life and share with the lost.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 12, 2017 18:31:36 GMT -6
Must share this testimony. It belongs here, based on the topic of works/faith et al...
I was not being a very good Christian to a close friend of mine. In a nutshell, I was gossiping. This was quite awhile ago, and there is no way that behavior exists(to the extent it was...after all, I and my body are still on this present earth)...but why the change? why the repentance toward this bad behavior?
One night I was so upset at myself over this I could not sleep. I felt disgusted and hateful of my ownself and cried out to the Lord as to why I can behave this way and yet believe in Him and deserve to even be saved. The agony of my sinful behavior kept me from sleeping something fierce. I started to drift off as I was condemning me, me wretched self. All of a sudden an extreme, bright white flash of light "shocked me", like paddles of a defribillator. It woke me out of this daze. I am adding in edit: I was scared by this light at the same time wanting more of it because it was somehow comforting... Then, I am not kidding you, I fell asleep as if I had run a marathon.
I told mom about this and she thinks this was the Holy Spirit interceding against the enemy (or how ever it should be described). Then she mentioned Paul and Romans 7, I think. it goes like this: from Romans, Paul's letter to them.
"14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature, a slave to the law of sin."
There ya go. No way will works ever qualify our salvation, and Praise the Lord for that!
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Post by socalexile on Sept 13, 2017 0:59:09 GMT -6
Here's a good example of what I'm talking about: Half of Protestants Agree With Catholics That Good Deeds and Faith Are Needed for Salvation: PewThe Pew study findings:
About half of U.S. Protestants (52%) say both good deeds and faith in God are needed to get into heaven, a historically Catholic position. The other half (46%) say that faith alone is needed to attain salvation. U.S. Protestants also are split on another issue that played a key role in the Reformation: 46% say the Bible provides all the religious guidance Christians need, a traditionally Protestant belief known as sola scriptura. But 52% say Christians should look for guidance from church teachings and traditions as well as from the Bible, the position held by the Catholic Church. Just 30% of all U.S. Protestants affirm both sola fide and sola scriptura. However, belief in sola fide and sola scriptura is much more prevalent among white evangelical Protestants than among white mainline Protestants or black Protestants in the United States. Among self-identified white evangelicals, 44% express both convictions, and this figure rises to 59% among white evangelicals who say they attend church at least once a week. In a series of multiple-choice questions, most U.S. adults (65%) correctly identify the Reformation as the term commonly used to refer to the historical period in which Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church. And a similar share (67%) correctly identify Martin Luther as the person whose writings and actions inspired the Reformation. Far fewer (23%) know that only Protestants traditionally teach that salvation comes through faith alone; 45% erroneously say both Protestantism and Catholicism traditionally hold that position, while 19% say neither religious tradition espouses sola fide, and one-in-ten U.S. adults (11%) say only Catholicism traditionally teaches that salvation comes through faith alone. Views on sola fide are tied to levels of knowledge about it. Among U.S. Protestants, knowing that only Protestantism traditionally teaches that salvation comes through faith alone is closely linked with believing that salvation comes through faith alone. Among Protestants who know that only Protestantism traditionally teaches that salvation comes through faith alone, about three-quarters (77%) embrace the concept of sola fide. But among the much larger share of Protestants who are not aware that sola fide is solely a Protestant teaching, far fewer (35%) believe that faith is all that is needed to get into heaven. |
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Post by socalexile on Sept 16, 2017 3:12:28 GMT -6
SO I got back into that group, mainly because it was one admin that didn't like that asking her questions that she didn't ever answer. Welp, I got banned again for making points that another admin was trying to deflect from, but I took screens this time. |
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