|
Post by socalexile on Sept 13, 2017 4:06:44 GMT -6
I posted this in another thread, but I think it's significant. Half of Protestants Agree With Catholics That Good Deeds and Faith Are Needed for Salvation: PewThe Pew study findings:
About half of U.S. Protestants (52%) say both good deeds and faith in God are needed to get into heaven, a historically Catholic position. The other half (46%) say that faith alone is needed to attain salvation. U.S. Protestants also are split on another issue that played a key role in the Reformation: 46% say the Bible provides all the religious guidance Christians need, a traditionally Protestant belief known as sola scriptura. But 52% say Christians should look for guidance from church teachings and traditions as well as from the Bible, the position held by the Catholic Church. Just 30% of all U.S. Protestants affirm both sola fide and sola scriptura. However, belief in sola fide and sola scriptura is much more prevalent among white evangelical Protestants than among white mainline Protestants or black Protestants in the United States. Among self-identified white evangelicals, 44% express both convictions, and this figure rises to 59% among white evangelicals who say they attend church at least once a week. In a series of multiple-choice questions, most U.S. adults (65%) correctly identify the Reformation as the term commonly used to refer to the historical period in which Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church. And a similar share (67%) correctly identify Martin Luther as the person whose writings and actions inspired the Reformation. Far fewer (23%) know that only Protestants traditionally teach that salvation comes through faith alone; 45% erroneously say both Protestantism and Catholicism traditionally hold that position, while 19% say neither religious tradition espouses sola fide, and one-in-ten U.S. adults (11%) say only Catholicism traditionally teaches that salvation comes through faith alone. Views on sola fide are tied to levels of knowledge about it. Among U.S. Protestants, knowing that only Protestantism traditionally teaches that salvation comes through faith alone is closely linked with believing that salvation comes through faith alone. Among Protestants who know that only Protestantism traditionally teaches that salvation comes through faith alone, about three-quarters (77%) embrace the concept of sola fide. But among the much larger share of Protestants who are not aware that sola fide is solely a Protestant teaching, far fewer (35%) believe that faith is all that is needed to get into heaven.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 13, 2017 6:42:01 GMT -6
SoCal something is wrong then...why arent Catholics & Protestants doing more good works! If their deeds plus faith are required, where's the deeds? They simply don't believe. Most that attend a weekly service do so out of obligation. Thats it nothing more, nothing less. When they leave the 1 hour service they revert back to "normal life" which includes habitual sin & debauchery. Dont get me wrong, I realize everyone is in a different place with belief/faith so there are some that genuine believe but I'm talking about those who think church attendance or baptism (of any sort) "punch the ticket to heaven".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 6:55:06 GMT -6
One could say that if that many believe their salvation depends on works .... they are playing with fire. (Oh was there a pun in there?) I tend to agree mike. They must not actually believe that. So either they are trusting their faith after all, or they simply don't believe in the reality of it all. Or, I suppose, they may feel that their works are good enough - because they never killed anyone or cheated on their spouse and they are basically a good person compared to their uncle, their boss, and ISIS.
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 13, 2017 6:56:22 GMT -6
SoCal something is wrong then...why arent Catholics & Protestants doing more good works! If their deeds plus faith are required, where's the deeds? They simply don't believe. Most that attend a weekly service do so out of obligation. Thats it nothing more, nothing less. When they leave the 1 hour service they revert back to "normal life" which includes habitual sin & debauchery. Dont get me wrong, I realize everyone is in a different place with belief/faith so there are some that genuine believe but I'm talking about those who think church attendance or baptism (of any sort) "punch the ticket to heaven". The problem is that you CAN'T do enough good works. If they think their works have any salvific effect, then they don't believe the Gospel in the first place.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 6:59:30 GMT -6
Is it possible that when people are asked the question about works, they think, "well something differentiates me from those going to hell. So even the "work" of believing is me doing something. Therefore, works are necessary."
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 13, 2017 7:09:51 GMT -6
One could say that if that many believe their salvation depends on works .... they are playing with fire. (Oh was there a pun in there?) I tend to agree mike . They must not actually believe that. So either they are trusting their faith after all, or they simply don't believe in the reality of it all. Or, I suppose, they may feel that their works are good enough - because they never killed anyone or cheated on their spouse and they are basically a good person compared to their uncle, their boss, and ISIS. I get serial killers and Hitler thrown at me all the time in faith vs. works discussions. "But you can't go around killing hundreds of people and be saved!" "You can't possibly think Hitler could be in heaven!" They always try to defer to the sins of someone that they think is CLEARLY worse than they are. I usually bring up a couple points: -Satan fell due to pride; nothing more. -Jesus raised the bar in Matthew 5, where He stated that lust=adultery and hate=murder (the latter is repeated in 1 John 3:15). So we're all murders and adulterers. This blows people's minds. At the very least, you can point out covetousness, and as a result, bring up James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it". So in reality, none of us are better than Dahmer or Hitler, since we have ALL fallen short of the glory of God. -Use King David, Solomon (who we aren't told ever repented), Samson, or Peter.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 13, 2017 7:10:59 GMT -6
In my experience with people in general it is as you say @silentknight, they compare to others often citing "I'm a good person". And ( socalexile) I often point out "why did Jesus die then?" Which really gets people thinking. And I dont disagree with you SoCal, we cant ever work enough to earn our way, yet as you, SK & I (and anyone else who truly believes) once you repent & believe and recognize who the Lord IS, you change. When you allow Him to be present in your life, you change. When you pursue Him, you change. the change equates to "good works". Which is what my first point was. If they truly believe, they would demonstrate good works.
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 13, 2017 7:16:48 GMT -6
Is it possible that when people are asked the question about works, they think, "well something differentiates me from those going to hell. So even the "work" of believing is me doing something. Therefore, works are necessary." Thoughts? I think that's possible, but a minority view. I actually run into a LOT of Protestants and Evangelicals that have the same view on works vs. grace that the Mormons, JWs, Catholics, 7th Day Adventists, and others have; they even use the same proof-texts. Take these two quotes for example: "Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" And: “Faith is a principle of action and power. Whenever we work toward a worthy goal, we exercise faith. We show our hope for something that we cannot yet see. ..You can exercise faith in Christ when we have an assurance that He exists, a correct idea of His character, and a knowledge that we are striving to live according to His will.” Are they saying anything different? Here's the kicker: The first one is from John MacArthur (Hard to Believe, p. 93, 1st Edition) The second is from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (True to the Faith, p. 54) See a problem?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 7:30:38 GMT -6
In such cases it truly would be easier for the "sinner" to come to Christ, than the "good" man.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 13, 2017 7:50:49 GMT -6
you know God is sovereign...sometimes i wonder if my many years away from the walk have brought me to realize what a sinner I am. I was saved into a congregation that taught this way, likely still do. And honestly I agree with a portion of it - there i fixed it And I was just reading Hebrews 11-13 last night so the first piece of this sounds ok to me. Even the second part doesnt say salvation is based on what we do, does it? Am I missing something
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Sept 13, 2017 10:02:58 GMT -6
The statement the mormons gave is not so much false, as much as it is false if it is being applied to salvation. But it also is fairly nebulous and not very precise or specific.
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 13, 2017 11:25:56 GMT -6
The statement the mormons gave is not so much false, as much as it is false if it is being applied to salvation. But it also is fairly nebulous and not very precise or specific. This is an example from a ministry that focuses on evangelism of Mormons. Read their explanation of the Mormon concept of faith here. Also, John MacArthur's book, The Gospel According to Jesus is used at BYU to strengthen the student's faith in Mormonism. MacArthur admits to it here: Why is it hard to win? I argue it all the time. What he says after ward is that he had to do is to change the subject to the nature of Christ. Why? Well, it's because he has a very similar soteriology. The fact that these men had no fear using a book that claims to present the gospel, with no precautions about reaching out to the author, on students that are in a works-based high-control cult, for the purpose of strengthening their belief in that cult, really speaks volumes to me.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 13, 2017 11:33:58 GMT -6
socalexile did I miss somethin gin the quote of MacArthur. He never said you could work to earn salvation? or that it was a requirement in addition to grace. I'm sure theres more to the story which is probably what i'm missing. I see your point that the mormons think MacArthurs book was good and close to their theology, but the excerpt you provide shows how different they are. Maybe I'm just missing it.
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 13, 2017 11:51:56 GMT -6
socalexile did I miss somethin gin the quote of MacArthur. He never said you could work to earn salvation? or that it was a requirement in addition to grace. I'm sure theres more to the story which is probably what i'm missing. I see your point that the mormons think MacArthurs book was good and close to their theology, but the excerpt you provide shows how different they are. Maybe I'm just missing it. In regards to the BYU link? Keep in mind this is him telling it, so take it with a grain of salt. I do think the part about them teaching his book is legit. What is also true is that it would be very bad for his popularity to cozy up to the Mormons. The fact is though, is that they read his biggest work, and thought he agreed with them. The original quote from his book Hard to Believe, is flat-out salvation-by-works. He did get push back on that, then he blamed his publisher and softened the language of that statement in subsequent editions; however, it still says basically the same thing: Keep in mind also that under his own definition of his theology, he flat-out lays out works: -Turn from sin. -Persevere in the faith -Live a changed life -Stop a pattern of sin -Obey God's commandments -Love your brothers -Abide in God's Word -Keep God's Word -Do good works -Continue in the faith -Include "all that pertains to life and godliness" -Unconditional surrender -Long to obey Him -Evidence true faith -Persevere in the faith All this is at minimum, euphemisms for works; and you have to show them to be saved according to him. This goes back to #3 and #4 here:
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 13, 2017 12:51:29 GMT -6
Yeah it was in response to the BYU thing...Not defending Mac here but do you think he really believes works are necessary? The way I was initially taught was works accompany your faith. Which I agree with to some degree. We should want to be more like Jesus right? In that desire to be more like Him, yeah we sacrifice a lot, Turn from sin, Live a changed life, Obey God's commandments, Love your brothers, Keep God's Word at the rest of the list...On one hand I had a friend who would run up to people, random people "you know Jesus?, wanna guarantee you go to heaven when you die? Do you believe He died for sins? OK then pray this prayer" He'd quote Romans 10:9-10, pray with them and welcome them to heaven.
I'm sure most if not all walked away wondering what happened. Some would pray just so he'd go away. I'm not advocating works as a means of justification, but do you think some preachers/teachers "have to" lead the people in doing the right thing? Seems maybe Mac just says it wrong?? Dunno, just thinking and chatting with you here.
|
|