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Post by socalexile on Aug 8, 2017 7:33:38 GMT -6
Who will be raptured? I hope, everyone on this board. We are told to examine ourselves to see if we are in the Faith. Let's none of us take anything for granted, or get proud. God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble. This is one of the most mistakenly quoted verses in the modern church. Preachers use it to slip in works-salvation and to scare their congregations. It drives me nuts. Read the context: Paul here is defending his position as a genuine apostle by saying that, with the 3rd visit, he's the one that bought them the gospel; that, if they have Christ in them, then he is a genuine apostle. This has nothing to do with judging their salvation by their works. Don't take my word for it: Fact is, (I hope I haven't said it here before) if you study the Greek of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5, there is a very strong indication that all believers will be raptured; given to sin or not. Paul uses two words for "sleep" in his writings. He uses both in 1 Thess. 4 and 5. In 1 Thess 4, the word is koimaō, like in v.15. This is Paul's word for dead Christians, to differentiate them from the dead unbelievers. In 1 Thess. 4 he uses that word to let the readers know that those believers that are physically dead will not miss the rapture. www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2837&t=KJV1 Thess. 5 is where it gets interesting. In verses 6 and 10 he switches to another word for sleep, katheudō, which according to BLB can metaphorically mean "yield to sloth and sin" or "to be indifferent to one's salvation". Why the switch if he meant the same thing as koimao earlier? Read verse 6, it makes no sense if he's talking about physically dead people. He's talking about not being given to sin and instead being alert for the Lord's return. And it's the same word in v.10., Whether or not we are spiritually awake or yielded to sin, we will be with the Lord! www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2518&t=KJV |
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Post by kjs on Aug 8, 2017 8:56:23 GMT -6
Love Bob from GES -- he always makes things so clear!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 8:58:40 GMT -6
2 Peter 1:5-8 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Post by mike on Aug 8, 2017 9:18:38 GMT -6
2 Peter 1:5-8 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Not sure I understand the inference here as the topic is who will be raptured. These things (faith, virtue, knowledge, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness) help ensure that your/our (my) walk will be steady, on target and for the Lord. Kind of like operation in the Spirit vs. flesh 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. |
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Post by socalexile on Aug 8, 2017 9:27:40 GMT -6
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Post by katmak on Aug 9, 2017 9:46:41 GMT -6
I keep thinking about the children. In the days of Noah, only he and his family were spared. The rest who perished, were the wicked. Assuming that there were children and babies amongst them, did those poor souls go to their deaths, too? Given that Noah has 100 years' worth warning and those at that time had extended lifespans, could it be that God closed up wombs and no children were born in that era? I hope that was the case. I worry for the little ones steal here in these last days if God's had of provision and mercy are not on them. I see pregnant women and young ones everywhere I go these days and want to weep.
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Post by Gary on Aug 9, 2017 10:52:13 GMT -6
I am ambiguous on what will happen with children in the rapture. I believe there is no question that all children of Believers will be going (1 Cor. 7:14). It's less clear about children of unbelievers. The Bible is clear that people only perish for their own sin and the guilt of sin is not passed from parent to child. Dr. Heiser discusses this in depth here: www.unsealed.org/2016/06/what-about-those-who-cant-believe.htmlThe audio is no longer online, but Dr. Tony Evans made a pretty strong case from the Bible that there was a categorical change for children after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. However, even though children who never consciously sinned may be saved, it isn't clear if that salvation occurs at the rapture, or for them, since they haven't placed their faith in Christ, occurs after the Trib or after the Millennium. One thing is clear: God is good and these topics are scary, but He is trustworthy. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 12:10:40 GMT -6
I am saddened to say that God has made it clear what will happen to 'some' children of UNbelievers. In Micah 7, it says that a husband won't be able to trust the wife/lover laying on his chest. Elsewhere in scripture is says that the wife will hide the afterbirth from her husband so that she can feast on it by herself. It is a horrible, horrible picture. But that is the point, to show that NO ONE would want to be here during that. To back that info up, evidently during the early American history, the same thing happened at forts that were hemmed in by the enemy during winters, long sieges, etc. STarvation, Pestilence, Murder, Death. But this will be on a huge scale.
I was sickened when I read it first. But I have used it to 'read from the scripture' of how bad the tribulation will be. An unbeliever may have to come face to face with it, in order to wake up.
Gary is correct, God is trustworthy. He has sent us message after message. Even in the wilderness, those that did not accept God's truth and had disbelief, there children went on, but they didn't. We are on our own in our dealings of coming to Christ. The Lord opens the heart. But if he loved us enough to come for sinners, and loved us enough to die for us - His love can be trusted to take care of each human being with love in the purest form. He desires that all men might be saved!
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Post by katmak on Aug 9, 2017 13:17:05 GMT -6
Thank you BOTH for your insights, compassion and some hard truths. I have to believe that all will be to the glory of the merciful God we serve. If it is His will that He take all the children, I have hope that those unbelieving parents will come to the knowledge of an all powerful God. In talks with some unbelieving friends who remain unconvinced, I told them I would try to look after their littles unto they are hopefully reunited. It's crazy that THIS is the sign that they're looking to...their own children disappearing! In my mind, if someone told me my kids would be taken away and I'd be left to deal with the wrath of God, I'd feel compelled to accept the free gift of salvation, quick, fast and in a hurry!
Gary...I was JUST listening to Dr. Evans on a few nights ago and downloaded some past sermons this morning! I will hunt for this teaching!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 13:32:20 GMT -6
Oddly enough, and in the wilderness right before going into the promised land, the parents blamed their fear for their children. It's definitely a typology.
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Post by katmak on Aug 9, 2017 14:26:43 GMT -6
So true! And God ended up sparing that generation! Guess I am just going to have to trust and believe, 'leaning not on my own understanding'.
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 10, 2017 23:54:51 GMT -6
I'm quite certain that God will take care of the children. Jesus has a sweet spot for little children, no doubt about it--if they are not raptured, then at least, their souls will be safe when they die.
Except you become as a little child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. . . .
Which suggests to me, that little children naturally enter. . . .
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Post by mike on Aug 11, 2017 10:16:38 GMT -6
A thought on this as well...I have struggled with this topic too. I'm not sure what happens on the day of the rapture, we can all speculate how devastating things could be around the world that day. Whether it will be "etherial" or "physical" will also be cause for just people missing or great disaster as molecules from all over the globe are resurrected into our immortal bodies. For every single child to go "missing" doesnt sound feasible to me. Newborns-gone, pregnancies-gone? Not likely, but possible. I have studied the passages in Luke 17:31-36, & Matt 24 and still have yet to conclude anything but offer some food for thought. Quickly digress for a second...I had always been taught all children under the age of accountability would be taken and never thought it through much after that, just believed what I was taught. But hey we were all young (and somewhat naive) at one point right? Trusting those God had entrusted to Instruct and teach us as they would not steer us wrong but provide insight on what they had been "schooled" with...Anyway Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The disciples ask 3 questions to which we should consider them not all as one response but also as separate events, in addition to foreshadows of the end bouncing back and forth within the three questions responding to them not in a linear fashion, but collectively yet individually and in no specific order. Make sense? If all babies/children are raptured then why would our Lord say in Matt 24 " 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! " If the children are gone why does He warn us about this? Its quite the contradiction if all kids are innocent and all are taken. SO either they are not innocent and therefore some are left behind, or this applies to something else. Can you agree on that? I have read and researched and some of the information would lead us to realize that it is possible that He was referring (24:19) to the time immediately after the destruction of the temple. The entire city was destroyed and it came upon them very suddenly. The Barnes Commentary in Bible Hub does a great job laying out this situation. biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/matthew/24.htmRemember something we have to consider the time frame and circumstances as well as the audience that was present. We should not think of these things as if they were written today for people in America or wherever you reside. I was reading in Numbers a month or two back and came across this and thought it might to linked in some way. Perhaps not...I am not saying I have the answer here, just want us to consider and "think outside the box" Num 14 " 29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me, 30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, [concerning] which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised. 32 But [as for] you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. 34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. 35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.
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Post by kjs on Aug 11, 2017 11:47:45 GMT -6
The disciples ask 3 questions to which we should consider them not all as one response but also as separate events, in addition to foreshadows of the end bouncing back and forth within the three questions responding to them not in a linear fashion, but collectively yet individually and in no specific order. Make sense? If all babies/children are raptured then why would our Lord say in Matt 24 " 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! " If the children are gone why does He warn us about this? Its quite the contradiction if all kids are innocent and all are taken. SO either they are not innocent and therefore some are left behind, or this applies to something else. Can you agree on that?
Going to disagree with you here .... When you ADD the couple of verses before verse 19 -- one sees 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’Most everyone places this at MID_WEEK (or half way through the seven years) IF all children are taken (including those in the womb) at the time of the rapture -- then there is still 3 to 3 1/2 years before verse 15 happens -- more then enough time to to have another generation started. ALSO - IFAll children were taken in the rapture --- the World System (AC) would most likely -- make it a policy to re-populate as soon as possible -- including given incentives for those couples having children. |
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Post by mike on Aug 11, 2017 12:24:17 GMT -6
Understood and I understand that many see this in a similar light as you do. I do not concur with the viewpoint of some perhaps many on this piece of scripture, so we can agree to disagree. I do not think this alternative is 100% correct, nor do I think your view on it 100% incorrect. I have always thought that the "Abomination" verses were specifically linked to the end time, mid-Trib Anti-Christ and the covenant he makes is with Israel. However, I offer the following information to consider...(again not being dogmatic about it, as I am not 100% convinced in either direction) 1. Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - I am no scholar  but I have read up on this as it was never crystal clear and am included to see it as already fulfilled when the city was destroyed along with the Temple in 70AD Wesley commentary states: He shall confirm - Christ confirmed the new covenant,
By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. By his preaching. By signs and wonders. By his holy life. By his resurrection and ascension. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease - All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined - That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved. Barnes Notes:A people of a foreign prince would come and destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of all would be a "flood" - an overflowing calamity, until the end of the desolations should be determined, Daniel 9:26-27. This fearful desolation is all that the prophet sees in the end, except that there is an obscure intimation that there would be a termination of that. But the design of the vision evidently did not reach thus far. It was to show the series of events after the rebuilding of the city and temple up to the time when the Messiah would come; when the great atonement would be made for sin, and when the oblations and sacrifices of the temple would finally cease; cease in fact and naturally, for the one great sacrifice, superseding them all, would have been offered and because the people of a foreign prince would come and sweep the temple and the altar away. ... And he shall confirm the covenant - literally, "he shall make strong" - והגביר vehı̂gebı̂yr. The idea is that of giving strength, or stability; of making firm and sure. The Hebrew word here evidently refers to the "covenant" which God is said to establish with his people - so often referred to in the Scriptures as expressing the relation between Him and them, and hence used, in general, to denote the laws and institutions of the true religion - the laws which God has made for his church; his promises to be their protector, etc., and the institutions which grow out of that relation. The margin reads it, more in accordance with the Hebrew, "a," meaning that he would confirm or establish "a covenant" with the many. According to this, it is not necessary to suppose that it was any existing covenant that it referred to, but that he would ratify what was understood by the word "covenant;" that is, that he would lead many to enter into a true and real covenant with God. This would be fulfilled if he should perform such a work as would bring the "many" into a relation to God corresponding to what was sustained to him by his ancient people; that is, bring them to be his true friends and worshippers. Too much detail to put here but I encourage you to also consider the points made here...http://biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/daniel/9.htm
What we do not know of certainty (which is why I am open to and believe the possibility of Matt 24:15 referring to Daniel 12:11 rather than 9:27) is why it is spoken a second time (perhaps third-Chapter 11:31) Again Barnes Notes seem to indicate that it is the same event as 9:27: That the daily sacrifice shall be taken away - This is the point of reckoning - the terminus a quo. The "taking away of the daily sacrifice" refers, undoubtedly, to some act, or some state of things, by which it would be made to cease; by which the daily offerings at Jerusalem would be either temporarily suspended or totally abolished. See the notes at Daniel 8:11; Daniel 9:27; Daniel 11:31. The language here is applicable to either of two events: to the act of Antiochus, causing the daily sacrifice to cease in Jerusalem Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31, or to the final closing of those sacrifices by the death of the Messiah as the great offering to whom they referred, and the destruction of the temple and the altar by the Romans, Daniel 9:27. The view taken in the interpretation of this passage will depend on the question to which of these there is allusion here by the angel, or whether there is an allusion to both. The language evidently is applicable to both, and might be employed with reference to either. |
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but I have read up on this as it was never crystal clear and am included to see it as already fulfilled when the city was destroyed along with the Temple in 70AD