|
Post by witness1 on Apr 16, 2018 14:12:42 GMT -6
I don’t recall it being called a treaty nor being signed. Just a peace with many. We know Israel is one because another verse says your annulment with death and when they say peace and safety.... Israel is peaceful with a few Muslim countries today. They have trade with some, and allow border movement to a degree. I disagree that you stress Jesus as the one who stops the sacrifices. That counters other scripture that says the AC does that. Why would Jesus want to stop that? Now ask, why would the AC? Think of it from a Christian perspective, not Jewish. Then you will know. For Christ and communion is our drink and grain sacrifice and we are to present ourselves a living sacrifice. That is what is to be stopped. Stopping worship, stopping prayer, stopping communion....all things we hold dear. What other scripture says the AC does that? I think this verse has double meaning... the first is that Christ causes the sacrifice and offering to cease in the middle of the week, and I think our living sacrifice will cease when we are raptured, also in the middle of the week.
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Apr 16, 2018 14:36:54 GMT -6
I don’t recall it being called a treaty nor being signed. Just a peace with many. We know Israel is one because another verse says your annulment with death and when they say peace and safety....Israel is peaceful with a few Muslim countries today. They have trade with some, and allow border movement to a degree. I disagree that you stress Jesus as the one who stops the sacrifices. That counters other scripture that says the AC does that. Why would Jesus want to stop that? Now ask, why would the AC? Think of it from a Christian perspective, not Jewish. Then you will know. For Christ and communion is our drink and grain sacrifice and we are to present ourselves a living sacrifice. That is what is to be stopped. Stopping worship, stopping prayer, stopping communion....all things we hold dear. The entire reason people believe the antichrist will make peace with many is because of this verse. There is no other verse that says peace with many. Just that, "when they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction will come." But the word used in these verses in Daniel is not about peace... it's a covenant (1285) like God made with Abraham. "And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
And he said to him, “I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.” But he said, “O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?” He said to him, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half. When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram..."Abraham was asleep when this covenant was made. The Lord cut the covenant Himself. An excerpt from this article: "What a most unusual scene this is to us in the modern era, but to Abram the meaning was clear. The idea is that the two parties entering into a covenant agreement would walk through the rows. If either party was to break the agreement, then they too would be severed as the animals were. There is a similar ceremony referred to in Jeremiah 34:18–20, where various leaders and people in the land entered into a covenant by passing through the halves of a calf. They didn’t honor their commitments, and so God handed them over to their enemies—their bodies to be feasted upon by birds and beasts. The covenant breakers were cut down, just as the calf was. It is easy to understand why English translations along the lines of “make a covenant” are often based on the Hebrew kārat berît, which literally means to “cut a covenant.” Even today we may metaphorically say that we are “cutting a deal” when entering into a contract or agreement. But the ancient covenants of the east quite often involved the actual spilling of blood. And life is in the blood (Lev 17:11). As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep (v. 12), similar to the one the Lord brought upon Adam so that his rib could be removed to create Eve (Gen 2:21). When the sun had set, it became very dark, and what appeared to be a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between the animal rows (v. 17). Familiar imagery was used to describe the unfamiliar—the glory of the Lord burning brightly from His presence. The Lord personally appeared to complete the covenant ceremony. Now, even if Abram or his offspring were to break the covenant, then the Lord alone would suffer the consequences. The Lord would be cut. And so He was—on the cross. You see, it was Jesus who walked through the bloody pieces, laying the foundation for His redemptive death. Abram placed his full trust in the Lord, and in response, the Son caused the patriarch to fall asleep so that He could place the entirety of the covenant’s burden upon Himself. The Genesis 15 Christophany/Messiahophany is especially helpful in underscoring how the Abrahamic Covenant is the root from which the New Covenant grows (Rom 11:16–18). Both are so plainly unconditional. Regardless of what Abraham and the children of the promise did—or will do—the covenant couldn’t be nullified. For the Lord Himself took on all the responsibility. Abraham’s descendants broke the covenant, but it was the Lord alone, Jesus Christ, who was pierced. He spilled out His blood, giving His life for those who broke the covenant. He became the Savior of Israel, and therefore, the Savior of the world." Messiah being cut off after 69 weeks should evoke this image of the Abrahamic covenant, of the spilling of blood and flesh being cut. Of the Lord Himself suffering the consequences of the covenant being broken. With this imagery in mind, why do we then read the next verse that says, "he will strengthen/confirm a covenant with many" and think it's about the antichrist making a peace treaty?
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 16, 2018 16:54:56 GMT -6
I don’t recall it being called a treaty nor being signed. Just a peace with many. We know Israel is one because another verse says your annulment with death and when they say peace and safety.... Israel is peaceful with a few Muslim countries today. They have trade with some, and allow border movement to a degree. I disagree that you stress Jesus as the one who stops the sacrifices. That counters other scripture that says the AC does that. Why would Jesus want to stop that? Now ask, why would the AC? Think of it from a Christian perspective, not Jewish. Then you will know. For Christ and communion is our drink and grain sacrifice and we are to present ourselves a living sacrifice. That is what is to be stopped. Stopping worship, stopping prayer, stopping communion....all things we hold dear. What other scripture says the AC does that? I think this verse has double meaning... the first is that Christ causes the sacrifice and offering to cease in the middle of the week, and I think our living sacrifice will cease when we are raptured, also in the middle of the week. Well, there are more then 1, but here is one for you. Joel 1:6-12 In the verses that follow verse 12 is a call to repent because of what is coming. Repent before the Lord because he is coming. How do we know this? Joel 2:7-11 Because the locust army comes; the army of the AC. In verse 10 we can see the 6th seal taking place. It is the day of the Lord that now comes. It is great because of salvation and that blessed hope, it is terrible because he comes with a sword to punish the wicked. It is the 2nd Advent. Christ was our meat offering and drink offering. The meat had to be without blemish as Christ was without spot. They would slaughter the lamb and poor out its blood upon the alter for an atonement of sin. The same as Christ blood was shed. His blood symbolizing the drink. Is that what you were looking for Witness? Romans 12:1
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 16, 2018 17:00:02 GMT -6
Daniel 11:36 and following speaks of a king yet to come. 11:39 "Those who acknowledge him he shall load with honor. He shall make them rulers over many" (The ten horns? see also Rev 17:12-13) Daniel 7:7-8 speaks of his empire as a terrible beast.... Daniel 7:17 says "These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth." I believe this is the same man that is spoken of in Rev 13. He is described as a beast as he was in Daniel. He will blaspheme God as was foretold in Daniel 11:36. He will make war on the tribulation saints. I also think that Antiochus Epiphanes and what he did is a foreshadowing of the one to come. An actual man...the one in 2 Thes 2:3 called the man of lawlessness. The same one that is spoken of in verse 8 as the one that Jesus will kill. 2 Thes 2:9 "The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders" (see also Rev 13:2)
It sounds like it will be an actual man who will use Satan's power to do signs and wonders to deceive people (through the false prophet Rev 19:20). He will blaspheme God. He will make some of his followers rulers. He will be killed by Jesus after attempting to make war against Him. He gathers to make war against Jesus (Rev 19:19, Daniel 11:44-45) Thrown in the lake of fire with the false prophet. Rev 19:20.
It doesn't make sense to spiritualize this man. Then scripture doesn't make sense.
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 16, 2018 17:10:05 GMT -6
I don’t recall it being called a treaty nor being signed. Just a peace with many. We know Israel is one because another verse says your annulment with death and when they say peace and safety....Israel is peaceful with a few Muslim countries today. They have trade with some, and allow border movement to a degree. I disagree that you stress Jesus as the one who stops the sacrifices. That counters other scripture that says the AC does that. Why would Jesus want to stop that? Now ask, why would the AC? Think of it from a Christian perspective, not Jewish. Then you will know. For Christ and communion is our drink and grain sacrifice and we are to present ourselves a living sacrifice. That is what is to be stopped. Stopping worship, stopping prayer, stopping communion....all things we hold dear. The entire reason people believe the antichrist will make peace with many is because of this verse. There is no other verse that says peace with many. Just that, "when they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction will come." But the word used in these verses in Daniel is not about peace... it's a covenant (1285) like God made with Abraham. "And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
And he said to him, “I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.” But he said, “O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?” He said to him, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half. When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram..."Abraham was asleep when this covenant was made. The Lord cut the covenant Himself. An excerpt from this article: "What a most unusual scene this is to us in the modern era, but to Abram the meaning was clear. The idea is that the two parties entering into a covenant agreement would walk through the rows. If either party was to break the agreement, then they too would be severed as the animals were. There is a similar ceremony referred to in Jeremiah 34:18–20, where various leaders and people in the land entered into a covenant by passing through the halves of a calf. They didn’t honor their commitments, and so God handed them over to their enemies—their bodies to be feasted upon by birds and beasts. The covenant breakers were cut down, just as the calf was. It is easy to understand why English translations along the lines of “make a covenant” are often based on the Hebrew kārat berît, which literally means to “cut a covenant.” Even today we may metaphorically say that we are “cutting a deal” when entering into a contract or agreement. But the ancient covenants of the east quite often involved the actual spilling of blood. And life is in the blood (Lev 17:11). As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep (v. 12), similar to the one the Lord brought upon Adam so that his rib could be removed to create Eve (Gen 2:21). When the sun had set, it became very dark, and what appeared to be a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between the animal rows (v. 17). Familiar imagery was used to describe the unfamiliar—the glory of the Lord burning brightly from His presence. The Lord personally appeared to complete the covenant ceremony. Now, even if Abram or his offspring were to break the covenant, then the Lord alone would suffer the consequences. The Lord would be cut. And so He was—on the cross. You see, it was Jesus who walked through the bloody pieces, laying the foundation for His redemptive death. Abram placed his full trust in the Lord, and in response, the Son caused the patriarch to fall asleep so that He could place the entirety of the covenant’s burden upon Himself. The Genesis 15 Christophany/Messiahophany is especially helpful in underscoring how the Abrahamic Covenant is the root from which the New Covenant grows (Rom 11:16–18). Both are so plainly unconditional. Regardless of what Abraham and the children of the promise did—or will do—the covenant couldn’t be nullified. For the Lord Himself took on all the responsibility. Abraham’s descendants broke the covenant, but it was the Lord alone, Jesus Christ, who was pierced. He spilled out His blood, giving His life for those who broke the covenant. He became the Savior of Israel, and therefore, the Savior of the world." Messiah being cut off after 69 weeks should evoke this image of the Abrahamic covenant, of the spilling of blood and flesh being cut. Of the Lord Himself suffering the consequences of the covenant being broken. With this imagery in mind, why do we then read the next verse that says, "he will strengthen/confirm a covenant with many" and think it's about the antichrist making a peace treaty? You are correct as the KJV translates it as: The Koine Greek for it is also Treaty, Alliance, League. I was merely pointing out how I had thought of it. I wasn't trying to focus on the peace part as I disagree with the notion somewhat, I was trying to focus on the part that it is with many and others point that its a peace w/Israel to which they forget the "many" part.
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 16, 2018 17:18:17 GMT -6
Daniel 11:36 and following speaks of a king yet to come. 11:39 "Those who acknowledge him he shall load with honor. He shall make them rulers over many" (The ten horns? see also Rev 17:12-13) Daniel 7:7-8 speaks of his empire as a terrible beast.... Daniel 7:17 says "These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth." I believe this is the same man that is spoken of in Rev 13. He is described as a beast as he was in Daniel. He will blaspheme God as was foretold in Daniel 11:36. He will make war on the tribulation saints. I also think that Antiochus Epiphanes and what he did is a foreshadowing of the one to come. An actual man...the one in 2 Thes 2:3 called the man of lawlessness. The same one that is spoken of in verse 8 as the one that Jesus will kill. 2 Thes 2:9 "The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders" (see also Rev 13:2) It sounds like it will be an actual man who will use Satan's power to do signs and wonders to deceive people (through the false prophet Rev 19:20). He will blaspheme God. He will make some of his followers rulers. He will be killed by Jesus after attempting to make war against Him He gathers to make war against Jesus (Rev 19:19, Daniel 11:44-45) Thrown in the lake of fire with the false prophet. Rev 19:20. It doesn't make sense to spiritualize this man. Then scripture doesn't make sense. Yes Natalie. The part some fail to comprehend though is what the verse said. 4 beasts come out of the earth (those are kings) but 4 of the beasts also come out of the sea. (not kings). In Revelation we have 2 beasts. 1 from the earth (False prophet) and 1 from the Sea. The empire that Daniel speaks of in Daniel 7:7-8 is from the sea. No different then the Beast from the sea in revelation, also an empire. But a beast is also a man (the False prophet). Who does wonders, even if possible deceiving the elect. He blasphemes God, he throws truth to the ground. This is the Antichrist. You had it all together sister. But your second paragraph went off. You have the answers that I just wrote written in your text answering your own questions as you typed them but in the 2nd paragraph you said "through the false prophet". He is the false prophet.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 16, 2018 17:27:22 GMT -6
Rev 19:20-21 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped it's image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
The false prophet is not also the beast (aka antichrist).
|
|
|
Post by cwood85 on Apr 16, 2018 17:31:06 GMT -6
I don’t recall it being called a treaty nor being signed. Just a peace with many. We know Israel is one because another verse says your annulment with death and when they say peace and safety.... Israel is peaceful with a few Muslim countries today. They have trade with some, and allow border movement to a degree. I disagree that you stress Jesus as the one who stops the sacrifices. That counters other scripture that says the AC does that. I am claiming ignorance here regarding these scriptures. Would you mind listing them please ☺️ Why would Jesus want to stop that? Now ask, why would the AC? Think of it from a Christian perspective, not Jewish. I am thinking of it from a Christian standpoint and not a Jewish one. Why wouldn't Jesus want to stop that? He was the ultimate and last sacrifice. The sacrifices done before him were all a shadow of Him. Any sacrifices done after Him being crucified were meaningless as they are now. Really the only nation that does animal sacrifices now is Israel and that is narrowed down to those who practice Judaism. Then you will know. For Christ and communion is our drink and grain sacrifice and we are to present ourselves a living sacrifice. That is what is to be stopped. Stopping worship, stopping prayer, stopping communion....all things we hold dear. <<< I think there needs to be scripture presented for this last statement as well please.
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 16, 2018 17:58:32 GMT -6
Rev 19:20-21 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped it's image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. The false prophet is not also the beast (aka antichrist). I just typed up info and it wiped out. So it is late, I will retype it later. I have to sleep!!! But your answer is Daniel 7:2-3 for what comes from the sea. Then look at Revelation 13 for what comes from the sea. See the makeup. Do not be confused that "it is given power and his seat". I will write it up tomorrow
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 16, 2018 18:15:36 GMT -6
yes, the beast in Daniel 7 is the same as Rev 13; I said that in my post above. Satan gives power to this beast who uses the lying wonders done by the false prophet (the second beast from Rev 13:11-14) in order to deceive people. They are two separate people. The second beast makes people worship the first beast and take his mark. And we are back to the origin of this thread...the name/number of the beast.
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 17, 2018 4:46:58 GMT -6
yes, the beast in Daniel 7 is the same as Rev 13; I said that in my post above. Satan gives power to this beast who uses the lying wonders done by the false prophet (the second beast from Rev 13:11-14) in order to deceive people. They are two separate people. The second beast makes people worship the first beast and take his mark. And we are back to the origin of this thread...the name/number of the beast. If you stated Daniels beast is an empire, why do you then say the first beast, the same from Daniel 7, is a person. The first beast is not a person. It is mankind. It is an empire.
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Apr 17, 2018 5:52:07 GMT -6
Is there not a single head of this empire? A single leader like Alexander the Great?
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 17, 2018 7:24:49 GMT -6
yes, the beast in Daniel 7 is the same as Rev 13; I said that in my post above. Satan gives power to this beast who uses the lying wonders done by the false prophet (the second beast from Rev 13:11-14) in order to deceive people. They are two separate people. The second beast makes people worship the first beast and take his mark. And we are back to the origin of this thread...the name/number of the beast. If you stated Daniels beast is an empire, why do you then say the first beast, the same from Daniel 7, is a person. The first beast is not a person. It is mankind. It is an empire. Daniel 7:17 "These four great beast are four kings who shall arise out of the earth." It's a king with an empire. A king that the false prophet will make the people worship. Rev 13:15-18
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Apr 17, 2018 7:42:03 GMT -6
Yes all empires have a leader. It seems possible to me that “beast” can be used to describe both the empire as well as the leader of that empire. Otherwise the “two” of them- the beast and the false prophet- could not be cast into the lake of fire.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 17, 2018 7:49:24 GMT -6
Daniel 7:23-25 Thus he said: 'As for the fourth beast, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. As for the ten horns, our of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings. He shall speak words against the Most High and shall wear out the saints of the Most High...
It is both a kingdom and a king of that kingdom. Rev 13:5-8 "And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words...it opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God...also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them..." That sure sounds like the king described in the Daniel passage.
Rev 13:11-13 "Then I saw another beast...It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence (or behalf) and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. It performs great signs..."
I suppose the second beast could make an image that represented an empire, but why worship an empire? It makes more sense that Satan would give his power to one man so that he (Satan) could be worshipped through that man. People are more likely to worship a man, not an entire empire. Nowhere in history are empires worshipped, only the leaders of those empires.
|
|