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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2017 16:11:58 GMT -6
Ok. so i'm a little confused. since we can never be perfect won't we always not hear correctly? And then, how can we ever hope to know if something is from God or not. Also, I was taught that everything needs to be checked against the bible. You seem to be saying that isn't true. Would'nt we just have a bunch of people running around saying, God says this, God says this if we don't have a final source of truth? And shouldn't that source of truth be the bible? Also, you keep bringing up having an "eye for tabernalces" What does that mean? Why would I want that? How would I get that?
Please be patient with me if you already answered all this. I'm one of those guys still climbing out of the red sea after my passover!
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Post by mike on Oct 31, 2017 19:06:45 GMT -6
If I may make a slightly off color comment to relate a thought. SK if this is out of line or off putting, I'll delete it... There are things that are 100% factual that are not in the Bible. There are things Jesus did that aren't recorded in Canon.
Jesus is recorded eating a few times in scripture. Yet nothing in scripture ever says he went to the bathroom, took a shower (or however they bathed back then) yet these things happened didn't they?
So can God speak to us outside the written word? Can He show us things not written down?
Again if that does nothing but take away from the message here SK I'll delete it
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 12:27:57 GMT -6
mike, I have no problem with your post and I don't own the thread anyway. I do have certain things I want to bring to the table, but I have no problem with others joining in. But boy when you say off color....  Certainly, not everything is covered in scripture. This does pose a problem for some people who insist that all required knowledge is contained in scripture. But this would only be true if God does not concern himself with our day to day choices and I believe in a God who does care and I believe scripture is full of verses telling us he cares. So then, if, as mike says, scripture does not contain all knowledge, what are we to do? I'll cover this as one of the answers to Cage's questions.....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 13:35:23 GMT -6
Ok. so i'm a little confused. since we can never be perfect won't we always not hear correctly? And then, how can we ever hope to know if something is from God or not. Also, I was taught that everything needs to be checked against the bible. You seem to be saying that isn't true. Would'nt we just have a bunch of people running around saying, God says this, God says this if we don't have a final source of truth? And shouldn't that source of truth be the bible? Also, you keep bringing up having an "eye for tabernalces" What does that mean? Why would I want that? How would I get that? Please be patient with me if you already answered all this. I'm one of those guys still climbing out of the red sea after my passover! @cage, I'll have to take your questions in pieces since you asked a lot of them. I appreciate the questions because that demonstrates that you are thinking about it! It seems that Cage is gone, again. But the answers to the questions might still be useful to others. 1. Since we can never be perfect won't we always not hear correctly?Simple answer: Yes. We will never hear and translate 100% correctly. Exception: Since God is God, he can force us to hear perfectly when he really wants us to. 2. And then, how can we ever hope to know if something is from God or not?This will be covered in the section on Spiritual Discernment - which I am getting close to putting online - as soon as I can find some time. 3. Also, I was taught that everything needs to be checked against the bible. You seem to be saying that isn't true. Would'nt we just have a bunch of people running around saying, God says this, God says this if we don't have a final source of truth? And shouldn't that source of truth be the bible?This is the stickler for most people in this set of teaching. So I understand the confusion. And I admit, to a small degree, I play this up to make a point. The word of God is just that, the word of God. It includes the bible, but is not limited to the bible. When we read the bible, it seems easy for us to "hear" the word of God. I mean, it is right there on the page. So I know it is the word of God, right? Certainly it is more trustworthy than some voice in my head. This is where I part ways with traditional teaching on hermenuetics and apologetics. It is not that I don't understand what people are trying to protect. I just don't think they are accomplishing their goal. The proof is in the pudding - if the bible was so easy to read and understand, why did the Jews miss their messiah? Why are there over 30000 denominations of Christianity? Why was the Reformation necessary? They all had the scripture of their day. It was/is the word of God. This may be a bit dangerous, but because it is fresh, let's take the date of Jesus death as an example. We have already seen great debate about this on this site. But even though we are all reading the same bible in the same language we can't agree on what God is saying. So, maybe mike 's observation is correct in this case - the bible simply doesn't tell us what day he died on. Or maybe it does tell us, but we can't agree on what it says. Even though it is as simple as reading words on a page and applying the correct analysis. Now if someone(Bob) had a revelation from God that Jesus died on a certain day - another (Sam) might come and say, that contradicts scripture, therefore it is not a word of God. But Sam would just be applying his view of what scripture says. So now we have what Sam heard God say in the bible, and what Bob heard God say in his spirit. Which is true? Each person could be wrong due to all the reasons I listed in the opening post to this thread. Our typical approach is to trust Sam and dismiss Bob. Why? Because we believe we are more capable of interpreting God via the bible, then via our spirit. But all the many opinions should show us that we aren't. So how then shall we know the true word vs the false word? Ironically, it is not as hard as we have been led to believe. When this topic comes up, people tend to steer toward extremes, but those extremes are rare and pretty easy to discern. I could play the same game. There are sites dedicated to contradictions in scripture. Guess what - they read scripture to generate those sites. They often know more about the bible than the average christian. They are not hearing the word of God. They are just reading words on a page. The same applies to atheists, who study scripture to prove it's falsity. Once again - it is foolishness to them. They do not hear God, but they are reading the bible. Those of us submitting to the Spirit and reading scripture hear God via the bible, but we still have our own idols that skew our interpretations and understandings. There are countless other examples(beyond the date Jesus died) of this - and many of them are much more critical to our current and future state in God. You could take many scriptures and ask a learned christian what it means. Then ask another and he may give you a different answer. They may even both be right, or both be wrong. We experience this on almost every passage in the bible. So, when someone says, "What you heard is not from God because it does not align with Scripture" - what they are really saying is, "What you heard is not from God because it does not align with my interpretation of scripture." In a previous, post, I gave some examples of Words from God that would have, no doubt, been denied by the scripture adherents of the day. It is not that I don't believe in the authority of God's word, the Holy Scripture. I believe in the Word of God, including the Holy Scripture. Many people only believe in the Word of God IN the Holy Scripture. Perhaps they have not had the experience I have had. I know the reality of hearing God's voice, because I have experienced it and had it confirmed multiple times. When I get to the spiritual discernment section, you will see that scripture is part of discerning and that will probably bring some comfort to many. One more point, somethings simply aren't covered in scripture. Every time you talk to a missionary they will tell you they felt called. Or a pastor feels called. Well, that was not in the bible. Pastoring is, mission work is, but not in particular to that person. So, unless God calls no one today, each time He does, he is revealing something outside of scripture. This was just a silly, but obvious example of this. There are so many more examples of areas that God reveals that are not in scripture. Even parts of scripture were revealed after other parts of scripture were already considered scripture. For instance, the New Testament. 4. Also, you keep bringing up having an "eye for tabernalces" What does that mean? Why would I want that? How would I get that?
Ok, this is an even deeper topic and I think it would be best to come back to this after the main points have been covered on the hearing topic . Tabernacles is the coming age when the corporate Emmanuel, joined with Jesus, will rule and reign in the kingdom of God. Let's be careful though, to reign in a kingdom run by Jesus means to serve the masses as He served us.
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Post by cwood85 on Nov 2, 2017 22:31:21 GMT -6
Personally I dont like the refining process, just being honest here. I like the result but not the process. Theres a lot of things I dont like going through but like the results, dang it!  Why's everything worth something hard to get through Mike I was saying almost this exact same thing to myself the other day while driving. I had put my last couple dollars in my gas tank while passionately praying that I would make it to the gas station. Literally by the grace of the Lord I did. A couple of dollars for gas until Friday. Calculating in my head the remainder of driving I have left for the week, how many miles it will be and how many mile per gallon I am going to get out of my couple dollars of gas... This refining process is difficult and hard to humble us and sometimes at least in my opinion prove that He has our back. He really does and it gives us something to give testimony of. I don't know if I looked worried or stressed in the gas station, but I paid for my laughable amount of gas in quarters and went back to my truck. There was an older woman behind me in line, who honestly looked like she had seen a thing or two in her life. I started to pump my gas and heard someone yelling miss, miss! The older lady from inside was yelling at me and ran up to me and said I put 5 more dollars towards your gas pump, I know how life can be. She then proceeded to give me a huge hug. I started crying and she hugged me tighter. I thanked her and the Lord out loud. She walked away and I spent the rest of my drive crying, ever so grateful, and humbled to a pile of pudding. A process indeed, but it does have a beautiful outcome. |
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Post by whatif on Nov 2, 2017 22:44:17 GMT -6
Beautiful story, cwood85! God is so good!
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Post by MikeTaft on Nov 3, 2017 8:22:39 GMT -6
cwood85 , that testimony brought tears to my eyes too as I read it. I'm such a softy! 
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Post by mike on Nov 3, 2017 8:44:09 GMT -6
cwood85 , there are some good people left in the world! MikeTaft what if the lady filled her tank!? $5 made you cry 
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Post by MikeTaft on Nov 3, 2017 8:57:35 GMT -6
mike Mark 12:41-44 41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: 44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living. Even the smallest actions make all the world of difference in God's eyes. This woman probably didn't give her all, but close enough. Yes, $5 brought tears to my eyes. Probably nowhere near as many as cwood85 , but it's because I see compassion in a cold, dark world. Me being from a military background where I was trained to not have compassion. I am grateful God has changed me and given me a compassionate heart that feels as He does when I see and hear things like this take place.
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Post by mike on Nov 3, 2017 10:14:15 GMT -6
MikeTaft, Understand...I forget sometimes "wealth" is very relative isnt it....I was not military trained but not much emotion. Rather more of a bottled up person for many of my younger years. Lately though many things get me welled up
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 10:26:43 GMT -6
I left you without much detail in your belief system. But now that we have the basic precept, we can begin to build on it. You’ll notice that the basic belief system does not even demand scripture. But as we begin to answer that question, “who does he say that He Is?” We find only one set of documents that even come close to holding the truth. We call these documents the bible. They explain the beginning, the middle, and a lot about the end. Though, on the surface, they seem confusing and perhaps even wrong when it comes to science, history, and archeology, time after time, with new advancements in those areas, the bible is proven correct, not false.
The bible contains fulfilled prophecy, consistency in message over many years and many authors, and longevity of record. Also, those of us who believe it to be the word of God can see it’s living nature. I have no doubt that when the time comes, God will reveal to us all the hidden features of the bible that we are not aware of and that will prove his wisdom and power and the authority of his written word.
With the bible our chosen written Word, we must still approach it with what we have learned so far - it is the word of God but that does not mean that we can translate, interpret, and apply it correctly by simply reading the words on the page. Anything eaten from the word must endure the same scrutiny as that which we ingest in other forms. I explained this in previous posts in this thread so please go back and review what I mean so that I don’t have to restate it here. The key is that as we build upon our foundation, we must hold each new understanding lightly until such a time as it passes our spiritual discernment - and then we can allow it into our belief system. But none of these beliefs that we add should ever be more important than simply knowing the God that the belief is about.
My friends know me to varying degrees. Some know what day my birthday is. Some know what colors I like. Some know my dreams and ambitions. But I would much rather my friends spend time being with me then study to figure out what color I like best. I would certainly rather have them hang out with me, then arguing about what day I was born. The point of the friendship is not what they know about me. The point of the friendship is knowing me through quality time and mutual phileo love.
That last point bears repeating - the point of our relationship with God IS our relationship with God. NOT what we know about Him. But, some would ask, couldn’t I be a better friend if I knew when your birthday was, or what colors you prefer? I could then give you tailored gifts on your birthday. Yes, this may be true, but what if you understood wrong? What if you thought my birthday was in December when it was in September? What if you thought I liked green when I actually prefer fuchsia? So along you come with your green gift in December and say, “I am honoring you with this special green celebration in December.” I could certainly appreciate your desire and effort, but I already have a closet full of green stuff.
Now the astute person will say, see you just proved that we do need to add the detail to our knowledge, otherwise we can’t honor God properly. There are really two responses to that. Yes. And No.
As we will find, when we begin to hear who God says he is, he is someone who likes to hide the truth. And he is someone who likes for us to search it out. (Some of you just breathed a huge sigh of relief!) But, He is also someone who would rather have us sit at his feet in love and worship, then run around doing a bunch of things in his name that he never asked us to do. So yes, we seek Him. Yes we look under the rocks and in the crevices of scripture to gather nibbles of nourishment from His word. But, we hold each of those nibbles lightly in comparison to the much more vital relationship with Him.
Now, we all know these things. Some are likely thinking, well this isn’t new. We even have a saying to protect this concept: “in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity." The problem is that so often we don’t adhere to this saying. But an even deeper problem is that we can’t seem to discern which points are essentials, which doubtful, and which all. So we begin to separate on matters that aren’t even essential to God. But the deeper problem than all of this is where it really gets scary. The deeper problem is that we place our beliefs higher than our relationship with God. In reality, even those of us who are super sincere about our walk can so easily place, WHAT we believe to be equal or higher than, IN WHOM we believe.
Yes - other people do that - but not me! Really? Test this your self right now - How many of the things you believe could be challenged and removed from you before you started to put up walls? 6 day creation? Talking snake? Worldwide flood? Trinity? Second coming? Rapture? Virgin Birth? Eternal Damnation? Lordship Salvation? Grace based Salvation?
You see, we all have our point wherein we say - NO! You can’t take that away! If you take that away then you're not saved! You don’t even believe “the gospel.” And if you take that away, you are a heretic. For the record - I’m not taking anything away in the posing of this question. Just using examples.
Now let’s see this:
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I listed these verses to show what is not mentioned: doctrine, theology, eschatology, prophecy, dogma, etc. Romans 10:9 does give us a specific thing to believe, that God raised Jesus from the dead (we’ll come back to this later).
Everything else may help us understand God. It may help us teach about God. But all that knowledge won’t save us and won’t save others. And often, it is that “knowledge” that drives others away and keeps us from actually hearing the Word of God. We each have our threshold on what one must believe to be saved. We have our threshold on what one may teach and not be heretical. But the actual gospel is much more simple than that.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
So am I saying that studying and understanding God better and trying to gain insight into the plan for the future is wrong? Absolutely not!
The whole point of this section, is to put our beliefs in their proper perspective. To hold them much lighter than we hold our relationship with Jesus. Jesus is going to save me because of WHO HE IS! Not because of who I am. I put my trust in HIM, not in my belief system. And as I do this, my ability to properly hear, interpret, and apply the Word of God in my life increases.
Ponder these things and meditate a bit on the following passages. Let it sink in. Then we will continue….And I promise, we are winding down and will start to move into spiritual discernment soon!
Romans 4:13 - 5:18
Heb 11:17-19
John 11
2 Cor. 5:18 - 5:21
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Post by gkp on Nov 3, 2017 11:41:46 GMT -6
Thanks for such a great post, silentknight. It reminded me of a verse that I wanted to share but cannot find it. So as I was cruising from book to book I ran across countless verses that you could have chosen to convey these thoughts. The New Testament is built around the love of God for sinful people. What is more important than knowing everything about God is that He knows everything about us - and will never forsake us.
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Post by mike on Nov 3, 2017 12:06:40 GMT -6
could it be this one gkp ? As I read SK's last this portion of verse 1 kept resounding in my head. 1 Cor 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him. |
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Post by gkp on Nov 3, 2017 12:22:21 GMT -6
No but it will do in a pinch!
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Post by mike on Nov 3, 2017 12:28:59 GMT -6
How about this one
Luke 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. 40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
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Why's everything worth something hard to get through
