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Post by mike on Aug 28, 2019 13:50:50 GMT -6
So in the context of the discussion, the question posed was salvation after death. Your reply to that is what caused me confusion as I do not see the reply addressing the question.
Yes, I would agree that the first completes before the 1000 years (whether before the trib, during or after is not relevant to discussion at this point - just inserting this to ensure clarity on my end)
It seems to me that salvation after death or the return of Christ is not an option. Using the same text in Rev 20, I deduce there is no further opportunity to be saved from the lake of fire as those who are not raised during the First Resurrection are in fact dead (in the grave or Hades or even Hell) and not coming to life for 1000 years.
I do believe that you are citing the same Rev 20 text, combined with "every knee bowing" to deduce that there must be a time when one can be saved. Is that accurate? That at some point either during the 1000 years in the grave or just before the White Throne people have the opportunity to recognize who He is and bend their knee?
I am sorry if this seems contentious as it's not my intent. Writing back and forth presents issues for me in that I may not communicate the words quite the way they were intended. As an Italian from (north) Jersey, I speak with my hands and body language a lot, which doesn't translate to your screen. Sometimes that's a blessing 😠 (if I'm frustrated) other times not so much 😕
That could be possible, but I dont think the rails are in different directions. I think they are somewhat parallel just fare enough apart that we cannot see one another. My hope is that we arrive at the same destination however we get there.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 12:50:32 GMT -6
Something came to mind today, well more like slammed into it tbh lol. I am also working on answering questions in this thread and even messages. School is starting and I have been just crazy. So this isn't going to be long and is something that is to ponder on. It is not fact or an absolute certainty, just some thoughts in regards to this thread and it's topic.
Often or more like many and most of the time when one brings up rebuttals of reconciliation or restoration for all of creation is our free will. If this gets too off topic I can start a thread if there isn't one already.
We know that gravity and time both exist even though we cannot see, taste, touch, or hear either of them. Both are experienced day in and day out whether we like it or not, they just both simply exist. God is in control of these things and by His power they operate. The earth rotates on its axis at a certain speed, goes around the sun in a certain amount of time and speed and this gives us a measurement of "time." All of this was made under extreme preciseness and was set in motion by God and the smallest misalignment could cause devastating consequences, like the earth being too close or too far from the sun and either freezing or baking us all. We cannot deny the existence of time and gravity or refuse to accept it. We cannot control gravity or make our bodies work without it. We cannot one day decide to say "time I no longer believe in you" or "gravity I will not accept your effects on me and my life" because both will continue on no matter what we believe or think. We can temporarily cause conditions that seem to suspend gravity or slow and accelerate time, but we really cannot or do not stop or alter it. We can go to space and be without gravity, but not for extended periods of time because of the negative effects it has on our bodies. Our bodies begin to deteriorate and literally shrink without it.
Now here is where our choice comes in with experiencing time and even gravity. We can choose how we experience time bu either using it for the good or wasting it. Time can be our friend or our enemy depending on the choices we make in experiencing it. No matter how we decide to use it, it still continues on at the same rate everyday, minute, second and so on. We have no control of it and it does not need us to exist or be experienced. Same with gravity.
So we must ask ourselves do we have free will to either accept or deny gravity/time or does it continue on no matter what we think? That is a little rhetorical. But with both of these that we experience every moment of our lives whether we like them to or not continue on no matter what we think or what choice we make. The choices we make only change our experience of it, but no the phenomenons themselves. Because God is in control of them, they occur no matter what and this has no effect on it being based on our "free will."
To me, this is what God is saying when He refers to himself as the great I AM or that he is the same past, present and future and never changes and this how I view it when He says that He and only He is salvation. We can choose how we experience His salvation while on this earth and also experience the benefits or consequences of how we choose to make His salvation friend or foe.
again just some thoughts of mine on this subject as I continue on with my responses to things...
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Post by mike on Aug 29, 2019 13:06:24 GMT -6
cwood85, great analysis and observations. As I read through I changed the way you wrote it and inserted love in place of time/gravity especially toward the end (last two paragraphs or do). Our love of God, things, idols, people and His unconditional love toward us. Please try it and see if the theory still fits your thinking 
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 13:32:44 GMT -6
Something came to mind today, well more like slammed into it tbh lol. I am also working on answering questions in this thread and even messages. School is starting and I have been just crazy. So this isn't going to be long and is something that is to ponder on. It is not fact or an absolute certainty, just some thoughts in regards to this thread and it's topic. Often or more like many and most of the time when one brings up rebuttals of reconciliation or restoration for all of creation is our free will. If this gets too off topic I can start a thread if there isn't one already. We know that gravity and time LOVE both exist even though we cannot see, taste, touch, or hear either of them. Both are LOVE is experienced day in and day out whether we like it or not, they just both simply exist. God is LOVE AND IS in control of these things by His power AND HOW they operate. The earth rotates on its axis at a certain speed, goes around the sun in a certain amount of time and speed and this gives us a measurement of "time." All of this was made under extreme preciseness and was set in motion by God and the smallest misalignment could cause devastating consequences, like the earth being too close or too far from the sun and either freezing or baking us all. We cannot deny the existence of time and gravity LOVE or refuse to accept it. We cannot control gravity or make our bodies work without it. We cannot one day decide to say " time LOVE I no longer believe in you" or " gravity LOVE I will not accept your effects on me and my life" because both will continue on no matter what we believe or think. We can temporarily cause conditions that seem to suspend gravity LOVE or slow and accelerate time LOVE, but we really cannot or do not stop or alter it. We can go to space and be without gravity, but not for extended periods of time because of the negative effects it has on our bodies. Our bodies begin to deteriorate and literally shrink without it. Now here is where our choice comes in with experiencing LOVE time and even gravity. We can choose how we experience time LOVE by either using it for the good or wasting it. Time LOVE can be our friend or our enemy depending on the choices we make in experiencing it. No matter how we decide to use it, it still continues on at the same rate everyday, minute, second and so on. We have no control of it and it does not need us to exist or be experienced. Same with gravity. So we must ask ourselves do we have free will to either accept or deny gravity/time LOVE or does it continue on no matter what we think? That is a little rhetorical. But with both of these that we experience every moment of our lives whether we like them to or not continue on no matter what we think or what choice we make. The choices we make only change our experience of it LOVE, but no the phenomenons themselves. Because God is LOVE in control of them, they occur no matter what and this has no effect on it being based on our "free will." To me, this is what God is saying when He refers to himself as the great I AM or that he is the same past, present and future and never changes and this how I view it when He says that He and only He is salvation. We can choose how we experience His salvation while on this earth and also experience the benefits or consequences of how we choose to make His salvation friend or foe. again just some thoughts of mine on this subject as I continue on with my responses to things... Alright mike I will play along Since God is love and the source of love, does our choice in believing in it/Him or accepting it/Him alter His existence, or our experience of it? He still breathes his life in and out of our nostrils everyday whether we want Him too or not, and it is His breath of life to give or take. Even if one argues well what about those who commit suicide, is that going against Gods plan of how our current life would end? |
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 29, 2019 15:13:12 GMT -6
I really need to have more time to post about this, but is there some question that we don't have free will?
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Post by Natalie on Aug 29, 2019 15:17:08 GMT -6
In my mind, Calvinism contradicts free will. The idea that God chooses who the elect are would contradict the idea that we have the choice thus free will. Those He doesn't choose have no choice either. Of course, Calvinist may say that I have completely misunderstood. I'm not sure how Calvinism plays into this thread topic.
Also the idea that God has blinded people. If they are blind they are not free to choose.
I also think I may be missing the point of cwood's post, and I apologize cwood for that. I will come back when I have more time to reread and think about it.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 16:01:52 GMT -6
In my mind, Calvinism contradicts free will. The idea that God chooses who the elect are would contradict the idea that we have the choice thus free will. Those He doesn't choose have no choice either. Of course, Calvinist may say that I have completely misunderstood. I'm not sure how Calvinism plays into this thread topic.
Also the idea that God has blinded people. If they are blind they are not free to choose.
I also think I may be missing the point of cwood's post, and I apologize cwood for that. I will come back when I have more time to reread and think about it.
Just to clarify, I absolutely abhor Calvinism. If anything I say or post sounds or seems related to a certain “ism” in doctrines, denominations and so fourth, it is not intentional. I am honestly very ignorant of a lot of details of the different denominations and “isms” because it’s rather overwhelming and irritating that there are so many of them. Also it’s not an idea or conclusion of mine that God blinds people based on my own knowledge, but simply what is pointed out multiple time the Bible. Does it still happen today? I don’t know and I do not think we should entirely assume it doesn’t. In reference to who God does and does not choose for whatever reason or purpose is not based on our free will or decisions. If he wants us to do something, it’s going to happen. I mean Jonah got swallowed by a fish for saying No and refusing. If there is any way to convince anyone to do something, it obviously done in whatever way works. God entirely trampled Jonah’s “freewill” for disobeying. So God only does this in certain extreme cases? Again the logic against this is against God being partial to no one. Sure we can say no and try to run away or avoid God, but He WILL get you to do his will. I can’t think of too many things that would be more extreme than by getting swallowed by a giant fish 🐟 and stewing in its digestive juices for 3 days... 😱😬😵🤮 I am not saying we do not have a will of our own. Clearly we get to make our choices and their are benefits and consequences for our choices. I am out of time for now and will add more later. |
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Post by mike on Aug 29, 2019 16:51:26 GMT -6
Thanks for playing cwood You have children right? Do you Force them to love you? Do you guide them to love you? Do you lead them so that they love? What if despite all your efforts to demonstrate your love for them, they despise you? (Jesus I pray it would never be so). This is what happened to the Jews. They refused to acknowledge who God is/was throughout the entire Bible. At which point He gave them over to their desires (for their own destruction, to lead them to repentance). In other words, blinding them. They refused, God said "as you wish". Their desire was/is to not love and accept their Messiah. This is the "free will" aspect I see. I think a great example of this is found in Matt 22 where the king sends his servants to the great banquet for his son, yet they refused repeatedly. Leaving the banquet open to what amounts to strangers. Those invited had a choice to attend or refuse. As for Jonah, I'm not sure I concur with your analysis as He was in relationship with God. As a 'son' his status with the Father is not the same as one who is not part of the family. Calvinism - in regards to free will basically says "if you're saved, it's from the day you're born and nothing you can do changes that". In that light saying we are not free to choose is similar to Calvinism. Hope that helps what I said a few pages back and Natalie reiterated |
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 18:18:36 GMT -6
Thanks for playing cwood You have children right? Do you Force them to love you? Do you guide them to love you? Do you lead them so that they love? What if despite all your efforts to demonstrate your love for them, they despise you? (Jesus I pray it would never be so). This is what happened to the Jews. They refused to acknowledge who God is/was throughout the entire Bible. At which point He gave them over to their desires (for their own destruction, to lead them to repentance). In other words, blinding them. They refused, God said "as you wish". Their desire was/is to not love and accept their Messiah. This is the "free will" aspect I see. I think a great example of this is found in Matt 22 where the king sends his servants to the great banquet for his son, yet they refused repeatedly. Leaving the banquet open to what amounts to strangers. Those invited had a choice to attend or refuse. As for Jonah, I'm not sure I concur with your analysis as He was in relationship with God. As a 'son' his status with the Father is not the same as one who is not part of the family. Calvinism - in regards to free will basically says "if you're saved, it's from the day you're born and nothing you can do changes that". In that light saying we are not free to choose is similar to Calvinism. Hope that helps what I said a few pages back and Natalie reiterated I do have children. Two who are both very strong willed and stubborn to the death lol. I cannot force anyone to love, but children are born and at least as a younger child seek their parents love as affection constantly. Even children in abusive situations still try to find a way to experience their parents love and wish or hope for it. I do not say that lightly by any means. However the same questions can be turned back to the parents. Is there anything your children can do to make you love them more? Better behavior, grades, decisions? Does any choices or actions make your live grow or secuRe it for them? Or is your love just there and exist no matter what they do? If your child completely turned their back on you and despised you after giving them a loving home and good upbringing, would you stop loving them? Would you ever stop perusing and seeking them? Would you be be unable forgive them? This is where my mind goes constantly, are we human parents capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Because majority of doctrines and theology seems to teach that or pretty close to it. Think of the worst thing your child could do. Would you still love them? Forgive them? We are ALL made in Gods image and are ALL his sons and daughters, not just some or those who chose well. All humans were created in his image and he breathes his life into all of us. |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 29, 2019 18:59:32 GMT -6
John 1:12 only believers are children of God
Although the Pope says otherwise...
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 19:32:32 GMT -6
John 1:12 only believers are children of God Although the Pope says otherwise... Yes that verse says believers are children of God. But the use of the word child is interesting and to me goes back to statement of the gospel being so easy that a child can understand and so being stated in scriptures. Fast dorwa to today and we have 40,000 denominations all with their own take on the gospel. How easy is that to understand? The pope isn’t the only one who says that either and so what if he does? 5043 téknon – properly, a child; ( figuratively) anyone living in full dependence on the heavenly Father, i.e. fully (willingly) relying upon the Lord in glad submission. This prompts God to transform them into His likeness. There are verses that talk about every knee bowing in glad submission to the Lord, not once but three times. I know that has already been discussed here so I will not go into great detail. Are unbelievers bastards? A different level of creation or humans? I am not being snarky, but genuine. EDITING TO ADD: Here is verse 12 & 13 of John 1 in regards to children of God and who that is. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the WILL of the flesh nor of the WILL of man, but of God. |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 29, 2019 19:40:18 GMT -6
No, of course they aren't a different level of creation. All people are created in the image of God, but not all are His children.
And yes, it's only God who can make someone His child, but it's through belief in Christ.
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 29, 2019 21:18:09 GMT -6
No, of course they aren't a different level of creation. All people are created in the image of God, but not all are His children.And yes, it's only God who can make someone His child, but it's through belief in Christ. Bingo! FreewillAs I see it...as if I'm some kind of authority, I'm not, the Father has chosen us, and so has presented us with the opportunity to choose to follow Jesus Christ. BUT, His wisdom and knowledge are infinite and knows how every scenario plays out. He knows what we're going to choose. I think that is why He chooses us, because He knows we will choose Him. And He knew this before He made the Heavens and the Earth. A pure expression of the infinite wisdom of God. As for non-believers, He knew they would not choose Him if given the choice...in this life. We know there is the rapture and the Great White Throne judgement. Two similar but different events. The first is all the believers. Everyone who chose God in this life. There is also those who choose during the tribulation, but whether that is a continuation of the first event or a separate one, I don't know, so won't dwell on that right now, but suffice it to say, they are choosing in this life, in this age, before the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ. At the end of that 1000 years, after certain things take place, there comes the Great White Throne judgement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is when all of the rest of humanity gets their moment to stand before the Son of God. And that is when they get to choose. Everyone. From Hitler to the Dalai Lhama or the evil priests of Nebuchadnezzer. Most will choose life, but there will also be those who choose death and everlasting contempt*. But it's still their choice.
I wanted to say more about God veiling minds of unbelievers, but it's late...
*Contempt takes at least two parties. The contemptible and the one who hold them in contempt. If, after having chosen to follow Jesus Christ and been raptured or otherwise changed into the imperishable, one even thinks about someone who has chosen death, I believe the thoughts one had of them would only be of contempt, after having experienced life in the presence of the Almighty Creator and His Son, the King Yeshua, As in: How could someone NOT choose this life of pure bliss? So the everlasting contempt is only expressed by those who have become immortal. It doesn't imply the contemptible is immortal. The contemptible person is gone and no longer a participant.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 22:07:40 GMT -6
Thanks for playing cwood You have children right? Do you Force them to love you? Do you guide them to love you? Do you lead them so that they love? What if despite all your efforts to demonstrate your love for them, they despise you? (Jesus I pray it would never be so). This is what happened to the Jews. They refused to acknowledge who God is/was throughout the entire Bible. At which point He gave them over to their desires (for their own destruction, to lead them to repentance). In other words, blinding them. They refused, God said "as you wish". Their desire was/is to not love and accept their Messiah. This is the "free will" aspect I see. I think a great example of this is found in Matt 22 where the king sends his servants to the great banquet for his son, yet they refused repeatedly. Leaving the banquet open to what amounts to strangers. Those invited had a choice to attend or refuse. As for Jonah, I'm not sure I concur with your analysis as He was in relationship with God. As a 'son' his status with the Father is not the same as one who is not part of the family. Calvinism - in regards to free will basically says " if you're saved, it's from the day you're born and nothing you can do changes that". In that light saying we are not free to choose is similar to Calvinism. Hope that helps what I said a few pages back and Natalie reiterated Sorry for replying to this in sections lol. I agree to God giving us over to a debased mindset and we can clearly see that happening today by watching not even 5 minutes of the news. 😬 On the second part that I bolded, I ask hard questions and not necessarily at all directed at you mike. *WHY* is it so important that we chose or accept salvation? Why is this something that the humanity in us feels we have control of or have to make a choice of whether or not we accept it? Why is it that we need to feel we have made the right choice? Please don’t answer with the robot response, because that just isn’t an answer, it’s a response with no thought behind it and done almost in a defensive sense. Again not directed at anyone in particular. I ask and I am going back to what I said above, we do not chose gravity or time but both are there affecting us every moment of everyday. Heck we can even chose to be atheist, but that doesn’t *poof* and make God disappear, He still there breathing his life into us whether we want him to or not. He is still rotating our planet around the sun even though he gets no glory for it. He keeps the sun and the earth at the perfect distance and allows the planet and His creation experience the beauty of change and seasons. Does that go against freewill that all these things happen and will continue happening whether we believe it or not? Because if we put things all in the same context, God being salvation does not ultimately affect our will. If we don’t believe and constantly bury ourselves in sin, we are miserable. When we see the light of hope and redemption we are liberated and freed from the bondage of not being able to save ourselves and constantly trying. We can even refuse to love, but that doesn’t make others stop loving us. There isn’t a human will that will be strong enough to say I chose destruction over life when in this short and measly life we claw and scratch to remain here as long as we can. Sometimes we put ourselves through hell and worse for the possibility of a couple more years or even months. But when faced with the blessings of God we would chose damnation when we cannot even do that now? To me that just says we as beings supersede God and his love with our own vanity and pride |
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 30, 2019 7:12:45 GMT -6
How so, cwood85? Did not satan already set the precedent, being the pinnacle of beauty and wisdom, yet he still chose destruction? I mean, that is exactly what satan tried to do, supersede God with his vanity and pride. I don't think that is possible, God being: the I AM, the Alpha and Omega, etc. One cannot question God's Holy Spirit. I think that is why it is unpardonable. How do you feel if someone questions your spirit? Only you know your mind, how can someone question that? The same for God only multiplied by Infinity!
In my mind, it is important that in God's Kingdom that we choose salvation so that His Kingdom is only made up of those who want/choose to be there. He's not going to force anyone to do anything.(one might question that in light of 'well, why did he do x or y so His people would comply." I would say, if your kid tries to touch a hot stove you might smack their hand.) It is important that we have the choice. But on the other side of that, if one does not choose life, God, in His infinite wisdom, has the power to remove that person from existence so that they and anyone connected to them is not miserable. The simplicity of this is profound to me. All creation waits in eager longing for what? The all encompassing love of God's Kingdom. The revealing of the Children of God. Those who chose to be there.
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