Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 11:32:30 GMT -6
Bible Threats - 1 Cor 16:22 - Let Him be Anathema Maranatha
Note: In between larger topics, I figure I could seed a few simpler items. There are many passages that seem to imply or hint toward ET or Annihilation. We cannot fully grip Restoration as long as these passages occupy our mind and are not explained. So, I'll take these on now and then - also, if you have a particular passage you wish me to deal with, please ask. In a upcoming post, I will give you the process that I use to deal with various passages and you can then apply those techniques yourself.
1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
Does this support ET? First, what draws this “curse” from Paul? A man’s lack of Love for the Lord. This love is Phileo - brotherly love. In other words, this man is not devoted to His Lord. It says nothing about his faith or belief. The result of this is that Paul says, let him be anathema maranatha.
Let’s be clear about what we do not see in this verse: fire, torment, endlessness, hell, etc. So there is clearly no teaching here about Endless torment for those who did not believe in Jesus before they died. There is no teaching about ET or Annihilation in this verse. To stretch this verse into saying something about eternity or even state of being is to add considerably to the verse.
So what is Paul saying - He is saying the same thing he is saying earlier in the same letter:
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Paul is making the point to separate ourselves from those that operate in wickedness and lack of devotion to the Lord. Not from the perspective of ministering to them, but from the perspective of making them part of the body. We are to separate them for fleshly destruction so that their spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
We see that 1 Cor 16:22 is saying the same thing - which is why some have been confused by the combination of Anathema and Maranatha. We always use "Maranatha" as a statement longing for what? The coming of the Day of the Lord Jesus. But what does he bring with him? Judgement. When we say "Maranatha," We are really saying, Come Lord and bring your divine law and judgement upon the earth. Make things right!
So we could translate Paul’s statement in 16:22 like this:
If any man is not devoted to the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be separated into destruction until the judgement of the Day of the Lord.
Compare that to:
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
The result is the same - separation (perishing) for now, salvation in the day of the Lord. What looks like a curse from Paul is actually Paul looking forward to the day when such a man is restored. But in the meantime, don't let the influence of such people leaven the body of Christ:
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1 Cor 16:22 has nothing to do with Endless torment or Annihilation, but it does hint at the idea that the coming judgement will restore those currently being destroyed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 12:25:29 GMT -6
Formula for Endless Torment Analysis
The doctrine of Endless Torment boils down to 5 points:
1. [HOW] Caused by lack of belief (Faith) in Jesus Christ
2. [WHEN] Determined At the time of death - applied at the judgement. (Variations exist)
3. [WHERE] Destination is Hell
4. [WHAT] Experience is Torment
5. [HOW LONG] Duration is endless
As we look at various passages we consider these elements:
1. [HOW] How is the outcome determined (faith, love, works, luck, preselection) ?
2. [WHEN] When does it happen?
3. [WHERE] What is the destination of the punished / rewarded?
4. [WHAT] What is the situation of the punished / rewarded?
5. [HOW LONG] What is the duration of punishment / reward?
And of course once these questions are answered we can answer the primary question:
Does this passage teach that people will go to hell and be tormented by fire without end
because they did not have faith in Jesus Christ when they died?
Now, when we find that a passage does not teach such a thing - do we have the integrity to discard it from our portfolio of reasons why we believe in Endless Torment?
In upcoming scattered posts, I'll demonstrate this technique as I take on some of the common bible threats.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 12:57:06 GMT -6
Bible Threats - Rev 22:18-19 - Adding and Removing words from the book
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book;
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the tree {book} of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Does this passage teach ET?
Well, let’s apply our formula:
1. [HOW] How is the outcome determined (faith, love, works, luck, preselection)
2. [WHEN] When does it happen?
3. [WHERE] What is the destination of the punished / rewarded?
4. [WHAT] What is the situation of the punished / rewarded?
5. [HOW LONG] What is the duration of punishment / reward?
Version 1 - He who adds to the words:
1. How - Adds to the words of the prophecy of this book
2. When - NA - but likely while it is happening to others during the judgments on the earth
3. Where - NA - but perhaps we can glean that the plagues were on the earth
4. What - All the plagues of the seals, bowls, and trumpets
5. How Long - Well all the plagues ended at some point, so we can assume the plagues on this person will as well.
Version 2 - He who takes away from the words
1. How - takes away from the words of the prophecy of this book
2. When - NA - but since the tree of life and the holy city are experienced in the next age / ages, we can assume then
3. Where - NA - but since we know that those that are not able to take part in the city and tree are “without” the city, we can assume without the city
4. What - Cannot partake in the tree of life or the city
5. How long - NA
So right of the bat we need to admit that the answers to these question are assumptions because they are not clearly stated. So trying to be diligent in letting nearby scripture help us answer the questions, we still end up with this:
Version 1:
* The consequences are not based on faith. This contradicts ET.
* The consequences are not in Hell, but on earth. This contradicts ET.
* Although there is fire involved in some of the plagues, it is not the major tormentor. This does not confirm ET.
* The consequence end at some point - they are not endless. This contradicts ET.
Therefore, Version 1 does not support a teaching of ET. It also, does not support Annihilation.
Version 2:
* The consequences are not based on faith. This contradicts ET.
* This timeframe is consistent with ET in that it could be said to occur after the judgement
* The consequences are not in Hell, but we could stretch this to include the Lake of Fire. This could be consistent with ET. The problem with this is that we are now saying that we go into the lake of fire not due to lack of faith, but due to removing words from a book of the bible. Hmmmm.
* The consequence is not torment, but rather not being able to partake of the tree and city. This is not consistent with ET.
* There is no mention of time frame. This does not confirm ET.
Therefore, Version 2 does not support a teaching of ET. It also, does not support Annihilation.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
There is no need for me to explain this in the light of Restoration in order for others to see that this does not confirm ET. However, for clarity, I will explain it in light of Restoration and Hearing God.
Anytime we hear the word of God and do not respond in faith by walking in the truth thereof, we are adding or taking away from His word. If we respond by doing more than He asked, we sin and are adding to His word. If we respond by doing less than He asked, we sin and are taking away from His word. This is true of all His word. When we do this, we are not allowing the fire of God to refine us in this life. We are holding up our pride, or life, as higher than His name. Whomever shall lose his life for my sake the same shall save it.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This is what Rev 22:18-19 is referring to. John includes this promise at the end of his book. But the same applies to all other words of God.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2017 10:32:38 GMT -6
Where to Go from Here?
I do have several other topics I could cover and I will continue to do so. As I said earlier, I will also sprinkle in explanations of how popular verses that we connect to ET don’t really support ET after all. But beyond that, I would like to know where people are stuck or concerned? Are there areas that you would like to see better fleshed out or explained? If we were sitting in the living room sipping cocoa you would see my heart on this matter and know that I am not simply trying to twist scripture. At the same time, you could ask questions and that would move the dialogue in a direction that was helpful to you.
Topics that I am still aware of that we could cover at some point:1. The three harvests (Barley, Wheat, Grapes) 2. The inner harvests (First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings) 3. Not Justice vs Mercy - Justice And Mercy - Only God can do that 4. The Jubilee and the Land Laws 5. The myriad of verses we have learned to ignore 6. Understanding Biblical Hell 7. Understanding Biblical Judgement 8. Exactly what are we Saved from? 9. If Restoration, Why evangelize? 10. If Restoration, Why live righteously? 11. What did the Early Church Teach? 12. Augustine. Oh Augustine! 13. Restoration and Eschatology 14. How Shall We then Live? 15. All the Bible Threats 16. Proving the Two tools I said I’d prove at some point - Apollumi, and Aionius 17. Everlasting in the Old and New Testament 18. Why we cling to ET or Annihilation 19. Sarah, Hagar, and Covenants I am open to covering any of these topics and I am open to covering any topic that I have not listed or thought of. If I receive no feedback from anyone I will pick one from the list and carry on. Personal Note:I will say, I have been getting some comments in private from people saying they disagree with what I am teaching and feel I am bordering on heresy. Although, I have lived under this condemnation for many years, I'm still getting used to it. At some point, if there is not much support to continue, I will begin to believe that this message is not for this audience. I will be obedient to the Lord in this decision. Request: I prefer to discuss in first person - Often people will say, “I don’t agree with you - I agree with “Bob Barker” - here is his website or book.” Then I find, I need to go read someone else’s book or website just to find out what I am even debating. Meanwhile the person who said they agree with “Bob” doesn’t even really know that what “Bob” teaches isn’t what that person agrees with. I encourage you to use what I am teaching to test the person, website, book, or belief system you think you agree with. Do you still agree with them? If so, please form an argument that you wish me to address and send that to me instead of sending me the person’s entire work.  I prefer that people stand behind their own belief and if they disagree with what I am teaching, they do so by showing how what I am saying the bible says, is wrong. Now some people do not feel “up to the task” of defending something even though they are genuine in believing it. I understand that. I will not bite your head off. Actually, I will likely help you shape your argument. I am interested in truth. If there is point in scripture, I don’t want to pretend that point isn’t there. So….Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Post by MikeTaft on Nov 29, 2017 15:20:40 GMT -6
Fiiiinally caught up! So far most of my arguments have been countered by not only scripture and logic, but it also coincides with my knowledge of who God is. God does not change, nor does he contradict Himself. He is I AM. As far as those declaring heresy at this study and understanding, I would like to know their counter-arguments. As you said SK, if they have an argument, what is their reasoning and evidence. Have they done proper hermeneutics and word studies of the scriptures. 2 Timothy 2:15 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.They only way to come to know God and His word is with a humble heart and to be studious with His word, especially when reading an English translation. Speaking of which, what source are you using of your definitions SK? Just so I can be on the same page in my studies. Those who are reacting with hostility towards this discussion should take a look at those three fingers pointing back at yourself. I encourage those who have questions to not only present a defensible argument, but also ask God for His counsel. I'm coming to find out, not only through this thread but in all my studies, our doctrines today have become very skewed by the enemy. SK please do not be discouraged by those who disagree. I get fed here more than I do on Sunday mornings, sadly enough. Those who slander are thinking more with their feelings, than with their heads. Keep this thread going. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2017 15:37:29 GMT -6
Thanks MikeTaft . Some have disagreed very politely. Others, not as much. But even the polite ones are calling it heresy. I suppose, it may be heresy against the Christian religion. You're words of encouragement are very helpful. Any thoughts on which direction to head? |
|
|
|
Post by MikeTaft on Nov 29, 2017 15:49:01 GMT -6
Thanks MikeTaft . Some have disagreed very politely. Others, not as much. But even the polite ones are calling it heresy. I suppose, it may be heresy against the Christian religion. You're word of encouragement are very helpful. Any thoughts on which direction to head? All the topics you listed are good ones. I think the biggest problem I can see most people having issues with Restoration of All Things is "Why bother accepting Jesus and following Him and evangelize others in this Age?" The issue is that what is the point of saving those now rather than letting them come to salvation in a different age. I know the God's word says differently, but I think there needs to be a more in-depth explanation of our Pentecost experience. I pray others would post their questions and disagreements so we can all come to a better understanding of God's truth. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2017 15:56:41 GMT -6
The question was asked: What source do I use for definitions.
This is a good question.
I will say my primary source is scripture. I studied Greek a bit in college, but I have not found that it makes a extreme difference in understanding.
So here is my approach.
1. Read the verse in English. I usually look at in KJV / NASB / YTL. Anything odd about it? Does it contradict what I know about God? Does it give me the sense that there is something not quite right? If so, pull it up in Greek or Hebrew.
For this I use blueletterbible.org or E-Sword (an off-line tool that can be run on a mac or windows machine) (as well as on a mobile device)
2. Look at what the word is and apply whatever knowledge I already know about that word and the context in which it is used. But then comes the important part:
3. Rather than only look at the “definition” in strongs or other concordance - see where that (greek/hebrew) word is used elsewhere in scripture. With what frequency does it mean one thing versus another. Does it make sense in each instance? Do the other verses change the meaning of the current verse? Is there a similar pattern or context or underlying message being shared?
This will almost always be as far as one needs to research a word. However, sometimes there are words that simply aren’t used that often. This make it hard to compare their usages. However, there are simply not that many words that need to be “re-translated.” Just a couple key words.
If further research is necessary, I will often go to an actual language dictionary rather than use the concordance lexicons. And if that doesn’t make sense I will google the word to see what others have discovered. But these steps are rarely necessary.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 14:59:59 GMT -6
If Restoration, Why live righteously?
So this topic has the potential to be the head of a very ugly spider. There are so many concepts that could be attached to this answer. But many of them we have not laid a foundation for. The meaning of salvation, our role vs His role, the harvests, all come into this topic. But, I am going to keep this answer stupidly simple and maybe we will come back for a more complicated answer later. No matter what we believe about the eventual outcome for sinners - we live our life for Christ now because we love Him.
I know that many feel that the fear of ET is what causes people to live good lives, but Christians who understand the gospel know that can’t be true. If I am saved, I don’t need to fear ET. Therefore that should never be an inspiration to be “gooder”. Those that don’t believe in Christ have no reason to fear ET because they don’t believe in it. So actually, ET should be the least motivating reason to be good. The problem comes from the fact that so many churches don’t teach the gospel and so people do end up with some idea that they need to be good to see the result of their salvation. In this case, the fear of ET does inspire them to behave better. But think of the sad irony of this, they attempt to be good in order to avoid ET, but the fact that they are putting their faith in themselves instead of Christ is what would cause them to go to the very ET that they say they believe in. What a viscous circle of lies. Thank God none of it is true. No. Instead, our motivating factor is Love. We love him because he first loved us. We obey his commandments (in faith) because we Love him. ET doesn’t enter the picture in Restoration - but really, this formula could also be said to be true for ET combined with a correctly grounded understanding of the gospel of grace. The other irony is that, in my experience, even with a solid belief in ET - most believers have not submitted themselves to a fiery faith walk with Christ and therefore tend to live carnal lifestyles despite believing in ET. Once we grow in our understanding of the harvests and what salvation truly is, we change our perspective on what happens between our "magic" salvation prayer and our going to heaven. I will cover this more in other sections - but remember, for ET / Annihilation believers, we get saved to avoid punishment. We make it out of Egypt and set up camp on the far side of the Red sea. Then we wait for the resurrection. In Restoration, that is not the course of salvation. We must move on, we must spend our time in Pentecost, the wilderness, and we must enter the promised land. So Restoration begins to provide an incentive toward stewardship, discipleship, understanding, righteous judging, humility - not because we have to be “saved.” But because it is part of who we are becoming. In Restoration, we live righteously, not because we are trying to live righteously. We live righteously as we come into agreement with God through our Pentecost experience. We do right, because we want to not because we try to. It is natural to do what God would want us to do because we agree with Him. This doesn't happen overnight - but that is why Pentecost is an ongoing feast. This answer was meant to provide the simple (and only legitimate) answer to why we live "righteously" in the light of Restoration truth. MikeTaft has suggested a more in-depth explanation of our pentecost experience may help. I may have to come back to that after we deal with some other big topics. I will also touch on the "Why evangelize?" angle of this question soon.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 19:04:56 GMT -6
If Restoration, Why Evangelize?
Another common question that comes up often is Why not let people alone? If they are all going to come to a saving knowledge of Christ at some point, why not just leave them in peace and let God handle them in His time?
Once again, there is some background I need to get to before a really solid answer could be provided, but a simple answer will stand strong for now.
- - - -
Back in the early 2000’s, I was working with some New Tribes Missionaries. New Tribes is a group that focuses on unreached people groups and they had a popular video they would use as part of their “marketing” tools to drive support for their efforts. The video shows the process by which the NTM groups would work. They become associated with a group of unreached people. They learn their language and their way of life. They live among the people for several years. Over time, they begin to communicate the message of scripture. They tell the whole story, starting with Genesis and working their way to the climax of Christ dying and rising from the dead. Of course, that means, that at some point, they need to tell “The Gospel.” The Good News. The problem is, their version of the "Good" news is not good at all.
So at this part in the video, the missionaries have just laid upon the people that set of facts. At first there is much rejoicing in the camp as the people realize they can be saved, but soon the joy turns to mourning: the most awful howling as scores of people begin to grieve. The reason? All the people begin to recall their family members, some of whom had just died that week, others who had died earlier. None of these family members had any hope now. The missionaries’ God was not powerful enough to save them. All because the people had never heard the name of Jesus before they died. Now those family members were turned over to endless torture. It is an awful scene and it plays over and over in my head every couple months or so.
- - - - - - -
Someone recently told me I should not hold back in my posts - this is a moment I would normally hold back - but - Please forgive me in advance - This is not a judgment against any individual - but each of us must truly own whomever we are:
I HATE ENDLESS TORMENT AND ANNIHILATION TEACHING!! It should abhor us!
What kind of God is this? According to our worship songs, "Our God is an Awesome God! He reigns from Heaven above, with Wisdom, Power and Love. Our God is an awesome God!"
Think about that. Those are the very attributes I brought up in the Incongruity of God post. Love (goodness), Power (Omnipotence), Wisdom (Omniscience).
Do you understand how angry, on Christ's behalf, it makes me when I hear Christians bursting out that refrain followed by Sunday lunch, football, maybe a nap, Sunday evening service then home again. All the while believing that this God will be conscripting people all around the world to endless torment or simple annihilation? Shame on us! We don’t care about God, we don’t care about the people around us. If this is truly who we serve, then we had better not rest one moment from the task of spreading this awful message of torment and death.
Think about it. God ends up losing the battle. Either He does not want to save everyone, or He can’t save everyone. He takes His lucky few home with Him and declares victory even though everyone counting knows He actually lost. What a pitiful god that is. It is not my God. In the case of Annihilation, He kills off the bulk of humanity and then says, “Ok, no one can kill anymore - take that death!” What kind of trickery is this? You can’t conquer death by paying it off with billions of souls. You conquer death by putting it in subjection to you - you give it nothing - NOTHING!
That is why we can say: Oh Death where is thy sting? - Oh Grave where is they victory? 2-15 billions souls lost is quite a sting in my opinion! I would say it is almost complete victory for the grave. Not quite, cause God, the only omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly loving, just, merciful, and holy being in the universe saved about 2 billion for himself. Come on, Man!
Please, please please Christian: Either have the integrity to admit your God is not awesome and stop signing those songs - or decide to see God for whom He really is and make the words of that song real!
Now some of you are saying, why is he saying these horrible things about God and Christian teaching? Because, that is not who God is! And if you really want to see Him I am giving you the tools you need to turn the ET and annihilation defamations upside down and to see a truly awesome God as presented throughout the scripture! However amazing your God is - He is even Better! Please review this entire thread if this is the first post you have come to in this thread.
------
Ok, back to our regularly scheduled, calm programming:
We evangelize in Restoration because WE ACTUALLY DO HAVE THE GOOD NEWS! And we are not just fighting against the unbelieving world, but must also struggle against the message of the Body of Christ. The damage is extensive. Many reject God because they don’t want to humble themselves to a greater righteousness. But another great number reject God because of the image that Christians have made of Him.
Now, I get it, remember, I am from the same stained cloth. But it is time to come out of that mindset - It is time to come out of that belief system and to begin to overcome! We overcome with the Blood of the Lamb - Which accomplished the task! The word of our Testimony - to the truth of what was accomplished! And we love not our life unto death - as we walk in the faith of the word we hear from God.
_ _ _
But aside from all that - the world is lost in darkness and sin. Can we claim we love them and leave them in this state? Can we claim we love God and not testify to the life saving work of His Son?
We have the answer:
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
It is our message:
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
It is our duty:
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
It is God's desire:
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
There is another reason which I have not laid a foundation for as of yet.
But there is a significant blessing for those who believe without seeing.
We will get into this later.
But by not sharing the true good news - the true gospel - we would be withholding the message from the Angels:
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
|
|
|
|
Post by hereami on Nov 30, 2017 21:07:32 GMT -6
Keep the posts and topics coming SK. I think there are probably many people reading this thread who, like me, just don't know what to add, and are waiting to read the next thought. I will say that I'm still riding the fence, although I do see most of your points and supporting scripture as plausible. I'll be searching the scriptures and asking God to shine His Light on them to see if those things are so, for quite some time to come I imagine. Every topic you've listed in an above post is of interest to me regarding this restoration doctrine or opinion, and I'm looking forward to reading more of your thoughts!
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Dec 1, 2017 9:04:43 GMT -6
Spot on hereami... Keep it coming SK! I am caught up here and do have a couple questions that you may touch on. 1. Where are those should who have passed that did not believe at their passing 2. Luke 16 (the rich man and Lazuras)-i am thinking the previous chapters will help explain this better, but want to hear your take. As well it may be that my two items are one in the same |
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Dec 1, 2017 10:41:39 GMT -6
I wanted to tell you that I got behind and haven't had a chance to read everything, but I just appreciate that it is obvious that you have taken much time to study all of this. It will take me a bit longer. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 12:31:20 GMT -6
Response to Mike's Questions - Where are those who have passed as unbelievers?
Response:
I will use the term Sheol and Hades in this answer. We have not covered the topic of Hell yet in this thread. But since I am now bringing them up. It looks like I might need to cover them soon. For the sake of this answer, I will use the terms without explanation other than to say, these are titles, borrowed from man made philosophy that scripture uses in order to have something to call the place of dead souls. In my understanding, these two locations represent the same thing biblically. One in Hebrew and one in Greek. Now, non-biblically, there are all sort of things added to these names.
To set the stage for this answer I think it would be good to note that none of the “final solutions” can answer this question with 100% certainty. Within ET and Annihilation there are differing opinions about what happens when someone dies. Some believe that the dead are in a sleep state and unaware of anything until they are raised at the resurrection. Some believe that the dead are held in one of two compartments in Sheol depending on various things that applied to them when they died (like what they believed). Some believe that people descend to Hell or ascend to Heaven immediately upon death.
Like much of Christian opinion - each camp has their own scripture references to prove that they are correct. And, as is often the case, the surface reading of scripture seems to contradict itself on this topic.
Restoration does not resolve this conflict. Nor does it demand one position or another. I have my opinion - and I will share it - but agreeing with my opinion on the short term location of the dead should, in no way, impact one’s acceptance or rejection of the general concept of Restoration. As a matter of fact, I find that this issue is one of several that causes much conflict in the body, but has very little impact on anything important. Knowing our state after we die is not going to change anything. So really, it is a curiosity more than anything else.
However, it doesn’t hurt to study and attempt to discern among friends. So…
My short answer is this -
The dead bodies are in the grave. The body grave. There is no awareness here for the brain. It is dead.
The dead souls are in Sheol / Hades. The soul grave. There is no awareness here for the mind. It is dead.
The spirit - which is not dead - is with God and technically remaining right where it always was before death - in the realm of the spiritual. It is not confined to time and place.
The body and soul are dead. They cease to have experience at this point - until a resurrection. This applies to the dead in Christ and the dead unbelievers.
Using Jesus as an example: We know that His body went to the tomb:
Joh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
His soul went to Sheol / Hades:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell[Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
His spirit returned to God:
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Of course, there are scriptures that will show support for what I am saying - and there are other scriptures that could be interpreted to show the opposite. I am ok with that ambiguity. When we begin to see God as the Restorer - we trust Him with the handling of our body, soul, and spirit until the day we are one with Him. Although, for a time, He may consign our souls and bodies over to Satan and or "fire" for destruction. He holds the final authority, and liability, over the entirety of us.
Sidebar: -------------------------------------------
I try to stay away from -isms when I teach. Because as soon as someone associates an -ism to a teaching, they immediately attach everything else they think they know about that teaching. Also, the intellectual study of scripture and religion is a secular activity. I am more interested in the spiritual side of knowledge. But some of you may be confused because I am saying the the soul dies. And that is what Conditionalists teach - who also typically adhere to Annihilation. So I will clarify.
Conditionalism is the belief that Souls are not immortal unless God grants them immortality. Many people who believe that God will Annihilate the unbelievers say they believe in Conditionalism rather than saying they believe in Annihilation. It is sort of like saying, I am pro-choice, not anti-life.
One reason that I do not use the term Conditionalism when I refer to Annihilation, is that I believe a person can believe both that souls are mortal while also believing that God will grant them all immortality and therefore not annihilate them.
-------------------------------------------------------
Ok. I'll handle Lazurus and the Rich man next.....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 14:34:24 GMT -6
Answer to Mike Questions - Please Explain Luke 16
Bible Threats - Luke 16 - Lazarus and the Rich man
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
First, let us determine if this passage supports ET:
Well, let’s apply our formula:
1. [HOW] How is the outcome determined (faith, love, works, luck, preselection)
2. [WHEN] When does it happen?
3. [WHERE] What is the destination of the punished / rewarded?
4. [WHAT] What is the situation of the punished / rewarded?
5. [HOW LONG] What is the duration of punishment / reward?
Luke 16: Rich man
1. How - NA - maybe by having a good life and being rich? Contradicts ET.
2. When - When he died. Confirms ET.
3. Where - Hades. Confirms ET.
4. What - Torment, Flame, Thirst. Confirms ET.
5. How Long - Does not say, but Contradicts ET, because we know that Hades comes to an end:
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave[Hades], where is thy victory?
3 out of 5 - one of the closest scores in scripture, but not 5 of 5 and thus, this passage does not confirm ET.
——————————————
Ok. So we can see that this scripture cannot be used to teach endless torment or annihilation. So, do we have the integrity to walk in the knowledge of that now? How many of us will still use this passage as a demonstration of ET?
Now let’s us address some key problems with this passage as a literal story.
1. The two men’s fate were not determined by faith but by their status and comfort during life. This should concern us when we hear this being used as proof of ET. For then all of us who are not sore and sick and lying outside the gate of rich man may find ourselves in Hell.
2. I know that when I said the sinners prayer and was saved, I did so because I wanted to go to Abraham’s bosom when I died. Ok, that is sarcasm. Could it be that Jesus is making a point by talking about Abraham? There is no record anywhere in actual biblical teaching that Abraham’s bosom is a location to which we should aspire.
3. One drop of water, from the tip of a finger, would be enough to satisfy the rich man. So now we are to believe that Hell isn’t that bad after all? Or is Jesus referencing Water here for a different teaching purpose?
4. Even if it were real, the gulf between them should be collapsed when: “every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hiss shall be made low?” Isa. 30: 4.
5. Do we really imagine that heaven will be a place where we are constantly bombarded by pleas from the damned, but somehow still have joy?
6. How could Abraham be in "heaven"?
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them,
This passage in Hebrews includes Abraham. Therefore, how is it that his bosom could actually be in a place of promise for Lazarus to come to? It couldn't, but Jesus isn't telling a historical literal story, he is making a point about the family of Abraham.
Clearly, this is not a literal story, but rather a parable. Jesus is using some of the teachings that were believed by the common people of the time to illustrate a point. So what is the point?
The rich man (clothed in purple and fine linen) in this parable represents the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day. And in turn, represents Judah herself. This man “fared sumptuously every day”. He was a partaker in the true religion - the word of God and the feasts of the Lord.
Lazarus did not have such blessings - he was outside this blessing.
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Compare this to:
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
(Just in case you missed it - this is the same spiritual message as Lazarus and the Rich man) Different story - same message.
Both men die, but the point is not how they will send eternity - but rather, the reversal of fortune for a time. Lazarus is grafted into the family of Abraham. The Jewish people, who did not partake of the living water offered by Jesus were cast out of the kingdom.
Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
This is a story about the enlarging of Israel to include the Gentiles. Praise God! Instead of seeing this as an angry God tormenting unbelievers, we should be seeing the opposite - that the gentile will be grafted in because of His love.
We know this removal is temporary because Romans and Hebrews tells us about the ultimate fate of Israel - the same for everyone. To Be Saved. To stay in the true Israel, the jews would have needed to accept the truth of one that returns from the dead - Jesus. But they will not and therefore they will be tormented for a time. This is not a torment in the afterlife - this is an ongoing torment while they wait to come back to the Savior.
|
|
