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Post by mike on Nov 15, 2017 7:26:19 GMT -6
Interesting stuff D4L, the war is right around the corner! As for "Even So Come" - glad it encourages you! It does for me as do some others  |
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Post by cwood85 on Nov 15, 2017 8:49:44 GMT -6
They have taken crafty counsel together against Your sheltered ones.
They have said, "come and let us cut them off from being a nation, That the name of Israel be remembered no more."
For they have consulted together with one consent; they form a confederacy against You:
The tents of Edom and Ishmaelites; Moab and the Hagrites; Gebel, Ammon, and Amalie; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assyria has also joined them;
They have helped the children of Lot.
Selah
Psalm 83:3-8
Amazing times indeed!
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Post by bruce on Nov 15, 2017 9:25:28 GMT -6
So I'm following you so far- But you mentioned that you no longer feel that Harpazo is on a Feast day. Still with you. But it seems that you start from a Feast Day, - Day of Atonement or Hanukkah, 2024 and work backwards from there. So if I understand, you mean that you use the 2550 - [1260 First half + 1290 Second half = 2550] but have the Second Coming /End of the Tribulation corresponding to Day of Atonement, and if you count back that gives us the Nov 19th date?
Disciple4life, I was perhaps a little imprecise, and that's partly because I am not certain which event will ultimately line up with which feast day. The most commonly held view is that Day of Atonement will be the day when the 2520 day count ends, so I was going with that. The chronology would be something like this: Feast of Trumpets: Jesus appears at Battle of Armageddon Day of Atonement (end of the 2520 day count): Jesus returns to Jerusalem, judges the nations Tabernacles: Jesus inaugurates Millennial kingdom Hanukkah (end of the 2595 day count): Jesus dedicates the Millennial temple This chronology leaves the 2550 day count ending on a non-feast day. It also says nothing about when the rapture could happen 7 years prior, except that if you count back the appropriate number of days, you have a date beyond which the rapture cannot happen and still be pre-trib if the second coming were to occur 7 years later on the feast days like in the scenario above. If the scenario above were to play out in 2024, then the Tribulation would have to start on November 19 and the rapture would have to happen on or before that date. This is just one scenario. If we are here next week (after Sunday), then it would seem difficult to maintain this scenario AND a 2017-2024 tribulation. We would either have to assume that the tribulation would not start until 2018 or that this scenario is faulty. Given that it is not clear whether or not there is a gap between the rapture and the start of the 70th week, in theory the rapture could still occur at any time, but even if the Bible doesn't explicitly say that the rapture and tribulation happen simultaneously, it seems to imply that they happen in close proximity. The appearing of the Lord to His church is always depicted as happening suddenly and the appearing of judgment for the world during the "Day of the Lord" is similarly depicted as happening suddenly, and they often are described in adjacent passages, especially in the Thessalonian letters, so one is left with the impression that they happen around the same time if not at the same moment. A gap of several years seems to be a stretch to me. Even a gap of one year seems to start to violate the sense of the passage. A gap of a few months during which wars begin that lead directly to the covenant beginning Daniel's 70th week is about as much of a gap as I personally think is plausible. |
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Post by mike on Nov 15, 2017 10:04:09 GMT -6
bruce , disciple4life, others...curious as to why the 70th week can't start on the 19th of Nov. yet the rapture occur shortly after? I feel like we are trying to figure out God and put Him in a box (sometimes). If peace and safety were to be proclaimed Sunday then sudden destruction - could represent the rapture, but the "then" doesnt have definitive time associated with it. So maybe the view is no longer "pre-trib" but early trib. Just some thoughts 1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
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Post by bruce on Nov 15, 2017 10:23:45 GMT -6
As I think through these things another thought occurred to me. We read the following in Isaiah. As far as I know, this is likely a reference to the "Day of the Lord" i.e. Daniel's 70th week, the tribulation:
24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
The bottom line of what I am thinking is that perhaps during the tribulation, the earth will go through so much trauma that our normal methods of determining the feast days will no longer work meaning that we can't really know when the feast days will be after 7 years of tribulation.
When we think about the feast days, we usually use one of a handful of different methods to determine when they will be. Because the Jewish calendar is lunar the calendar has to be adjusted every few years to keep the feasts from occurring in the wrong part of the year. Anyone who is familiar with the Islamic calendar will have a sense of how this happens. Because the Muslims never adjust their calendar, Ramadan ends up happening about 10 days earlier every year, and after several years it occurs in an entirely different season. Jews want Passover to stay in the Spring and for the Tabernacles set of feasts to occur in the late summer or early fall so a "leap month" must be added every few years, and there is disagreement about the method to be used to add these leap months.
One method is simply to use the calculations that the Jewish community has been using for the last 1600 years or so. It's as easy as going to a Jewish calendar website, typing in the year, and finding the dates of the feasts. Rabbis hundreds of years ago calculated when the feasts ought to occur using formulas that approximated the solar and lunar cycles and pre-determined when to add the leap months. Unfortunately, their calculations are not 100% precise, so if thousands of years were to pass, the feasts would eventually slip to later and later dates in the year. The slippage since the calendar was instituted is approximately 7 days.
Another method is to go by a very strict scientific observation of when the first full moon after the equinox will be in the Spring and calling this month 1. The fall feasts will then happen in the 7th month after month 1. This is the method used by TorahCalendar.
Another method is to assume that, because a grain offering was made during the passover, the feast needed to wait until the harvest showed signs of being ripe enough to be ready for Passover. Using this method, no one knows for certain if any year will require an extra month until the agricultural observations are made.
So one way or another, these methods are intended to ensure that Passover is in the spring and the Tabernacles set of feasts are 7 months later, but if it is true that the earth shall "reel to and fro like a drunkard", could that not affect the timing of the seasons, and hence the appropriate time to observe the feasts of the Lord? If the rotation of the earth were to speed up or slow down, or if the tilt of the earth on its axis were to be altered during the course of the tribulation, then all bets are off.
The seasons seem to have been relatively stable since the time of Noah, but based on what we read about the Tribulation period from Isaiah and in the Book of Revelation, this stability will be gone. With our ability to predict the seasons gone, our ability to determine when the feasts of the Lord should be celebrated will likewise be impacted. Projecting day counts from when the feasts ought to occur should the seasons continue on as they are today may not be appropriate.
On the one hand, this would render moot a lot of speculation that occurs (and that I have participated in) based on projected feast days 7 years hence and could be seen as vindicating those who like to throw cold water on date speculations. I am a proud date speculator so I don't fault anyone for doing that, but on the plus side, this could give us all hope that the rapture is indeed imminent, even if our best date speculations expire on us in the days ahead. World events and celestial events continue to say soon. I have seen it pointed out that Jupiter, which seems to represent the Body of Christ, enters Libra, possibly representing the Throne of Heaven, on none other than Christmas Day 2017! That's certainly too late for our standard day counts, but when we realize that the tribulation could very well tear to shreds our ability to predict feast days 7 years from now, that makes Christmas Day once more a real rapture possibility, if not some date before then.
It's funny, this really only occurred to me because I started watching a documentary last night on Netflix about the truth of Genesis and the flood, and I was struck by how radically the flood altered the landscape on Earth. If the last days of the church are like the days of Noah, then what comes after will probably similarly radically alter the Earth on a scale not seen since then.
Maranatha!
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Post by bruce on Nov 15, 2017 12:06:22 GMT -6
bruce , disciple4life , others...curious as to why the 70th week can't start on the 19th of Nov. yet the rapture occur shortly after? I feel like we are trying to figure out God and put Him in a box (sometimes). If peace and safety were to be proclaimed Sunday then sudden destruction - could represent the rapture, but the "then" doesnt have definitive time associated with it. So maybe the view is no longer "pre-trib" but early trib. Just some thoughts 1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. I am a pretty convinced dispensationalist. I tend to think that God has separated his dealings with the Church and with Israel, and that the Tribulation is for Israel, all 2520 days of it, so I think we will probably be gone by then. Obviously if it becomes clear that we have entered the Tribulation, then I will revise my thinking, but all of the research I have done so far seems to suggest that the two dispensations will remain separate. |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 15, 2017 13:40:25 GMT -6
bruce , disciple4life , others...curious as to why the 70th week can't start on the 19th of Nov. yet the rapture occur shortly after? I feel like we are trying to figure out God and put Him in a box (sometimes). If peace and safety were to be proclaimed Sunday then sudden destruction - could represent the rapture, but the "then" doesnt have definitive time associated with it. So maybe the view is no longer "pre-trib" but early trib. Just some thoughts 1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. One of the things I have been curious about, is who is saying 'peace and safety'? The world? The Jews? the Muslims? Cuz the 'they' for 'not escape' grammatically appears to be the same 'they' for 'peace and safety'. But what if it isnt? And the 'them's - are they the same as the 'they's'? |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 15, 2017 13:45:41 GMT -6
I also have to throw this out there:
What if Jesus fulfilled the Fall feasts when he was born, and the spring feasts when he was an adult?
There is a hypothesis that Christ's birth was on the FoT (September) in 2BC...
The biblical (not civil) first month is in Autumn. Not spring.
Born on FoT, circumcised on Day of Atonement?, and the Feast of Booths (God with us)... idk?
If this is a viable hypothesis, then trying to 'fit' the second coming to 2024 becomes unnecessary.
We already know we are in the season. The Rev 12:1-2 sign was a clear indicator that prophecies that have been millennia in scripture are about to be fulfilled literally. Like a green light where all the traffic is backed up, but then starts to go slowly at first...
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Post by bruce on Nov 15, 2017 15:16:30 GMT -6
I also have to throw this out there: What if Jesus fulfilled the Fall feasts when he was born, and the spring feasts when he was an adult? There is a hypothesis that Christ's birth was on the FoT (September) in 2BC... The biblical (not civil) first month is in Autumn. Not spring. Born on FoT, circumcised on Day of Atonement?, and the Feast of Booths (God with us)... idk? If this is a viable hypothesis, then trying to 'fit' the second coming to 2024 becomes unnecessary. We already know we are in the season. The Rev 12:1-2 sign was a clear indicator that prophecies that have been millennia in scripture are about to be fulfilled literally. Like a green light where all the traffic is backed up, but then starts to go slowly at first... Yardstick, I think part of the problem with thinking that the fall feasts were fulfilled at Jesus' first coming is that if they were, then it's been hidden from us all this time. The fulfillment of the Spring feasts is recorded for us in scripture. Those fulfillments are widely acknowledged by all branches of the Christian church. By contrast, even the date of Jesus' birth is not recorded for us. There are many great theories out there about when he was born, and it's possible that one of them is right, but it's not in the Bible, and so that leaves us without any infallible confirmation. If we can't confirm it in scripture, then how much use to us can it be if it is true? Wouldn't God want to reveal that to us? Why did He fail to record it in scripture if he wanted us to know it? I am increasingly thinking that the fall feasts will be fulfilled at the second coming, but that we won't necessarily know in advance when the fall feasts will be due to the effects that the tribulation will have on earth's seasons and, by extension, the timing of the feasts (that's what I was trying to get across in my other post). I agree that we are in the season, and even though I currently like December 25 as a rapture possibility, I increasingly think it could be any moment now. |
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 15, 2017 16:26:49 GMT -6
I also have to throw this out there: What if Jesus fulfilled the Fall feasts when he was born, and the spring feasts when he was an adult? There is a hypothesis that Christ's birth was on the FoT (September) in 2BC... The biblical (not civil) first month is in Autumn. Not spring. Born on FoT, circumcised on Day of Atonement?, and the Feast of Booths (God with us)... idk? If this is a viable hypothesis, then trying to 'fit' the second coming to 2024 becomes unnecessary. We already know we are in the season. The Rev 12:1-2 sign was a clear indicator that prophecies that have been millennia in scripture are about to be fulfilled literally. Like a green light where all the traffic is backed up, but then starts to go slowly at first... Yardstick, I think part of the problem with thinking that the fall feasts were fulfilled at Jesus' first coming is that if they were, then it's been hidden from us all this time. The fulfillment of the Spring feasts is recorded for us in scripture. Those fulfillments are widely acknowledged by all branches of the Christian church. By contrast, even the date of Jesus' birth is not recorded for us. There are many great theories out there about when he was born, and it's possible that one of them is right, but it's not in the Bible, and so that leaves us without any infallible confirmation. If we can't confirm it in scripture, then how much use to us can it be if it is true? Wouldn't God want to reveal that to us? Why did He fail to record it in scripture if he wanted us to know it? I am increasingly thinking that the fall feasts will be fulfilled at the second coming, but that we won't necessarily know in advance when the fall feasts will be due to the effects that the tribulation will have on earth's seasons and, by extension, the timing of the feasts (that's what I was trying to get across in my other post). I agree that we are in the season, and even though I currently like December 25 as a rapture possibility, I increasingly think it could be any moment now. Some very good points, bruce. I was thinking the exact same thing about the Spring feasts having already been fulfilled and recorded in scripture, and the fact that while most Christians agree on very little, there is very widespread agreement, across many denominations, that the First Four Spring Feasts have already been fulfilled, and that the three Fall Feasts have not - For this reason, the Fall Feasts - Yom Teruah/ Feast of trumpets, Yom Kippur,/ Day of Atonement and Feast of Booths/ Sukkot are universally connected with End Times. The other reason why this doesn't work, is that while I think there's lots of circumstantial evidence as well as the perfect display of Revel 12 at the Feast of Trumpets birth of Christ, - it's not clear in Scripture, and the circumcision was eight days later. Day of Atonement is ten days after Feast of Trumpets. The other obvious and huge problem is that they are all out of order, with Day of Atonement not being fulfilled at all. I do agree with Mike that it's possible that the 70th week day count could start with a war or treaty, and then the Harpazo very soon after. I think the gap could only be a matter of days. **The biggest issue with this is that if we see a War involving Israel, or a major treaty with Israel and Many, then this totally destroys the entire notion of thief in the night.
In my humble opinion, I don't think that the earth reeling like a drunkard, will affect/ involve the sun/ moon - and the reason, is that if there is a cataclysmic event, - comet slams into the earth, and altered Earth's orbit or rotation, or make such a huge trauma that we couldn't know the lunar feasts, then we couldn't even tell normal days, and then this would make the 1260 days meaningless, as well as the 1290 days for the second half. It not to the point yet of saying the Revelation 12 sign/ Sept 12 alignment was meaningless, nor am I adamant that the Rapture must be on a Feast day. I'm looking closely at the middle east -particularly in light of the very recent development as highlighted by Amir Tsarfati, yesterday. I'm also looking for some kind of warning - likely a ginormous earthquake. I also think that aside from Halloween, Dec 25th was the Pagan holiday of the Sun God - I think that it's the second to the last, least possible day of the year. I don't think God would choose a pagan holiday as his wedding day, and I don't see even remotely how this would provoke the Jews to jealousy. Just my own 2 cents.
'Even So, Come' by Kristian Stanfill posted by mike is my new favorite.
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Post by yardstick on Nov 15, 2017 16:46:31 GMT -6
I also have to throw this out there: What if Jesus fulfilled the Fall feasts when he was born, and the spring feasts when he was an adult? There is a hypothesis that Christ's birth was on the FoT (September) in 2BC... The biblical (not civil) first month is in Autumn. Not spring. Born on FoT, circumcised on Day of Atonement?, and the Feast of Booths (God with us)... idk? If this is a viable hypothesis, then trying to 'fit' the second coming to 2024 becomes unnecessary. We already know we are in the season. The Rev 12:1-2 sign was a clear indicator that prophecies that have been millennia in scripture are about to be fulfilled literally. Like a green light where all the traffic is backed up, but then starts to go slowly at first... Yardstick, I think part of the problem with thinking that the fall feasts were fulfilled at Jesus' first coming is that if they were, then it's been hidden from us all this time. The fulfillment of the Spring feasts is recorded for us in scripture. Those fulfillments are widely acknowledged by all branches of the Christian church. By contrast, even the date of Jesus' birth is not recorded for us. There are many great theories out there about when he was born, and it's possible that one of them is right, but it's not in the Bible, and so that leaves us without any infallible confirmation. If we can't confirm it in scripture, then how much use to us can it be if it is true? Wouldn't God want to reveal that to us? Why did He fail to record it in scripture if he wanted us to know it? I am increasingly thinking that the fall feasts will be fulfilled at the second coming, but that we won't necessarily know in advance when the fall feasts will be due to the effects that the tribulation will have on earth's seasons and, by extension, the timing of the feasts (that's what I was trying to get across in my other post). I agree that we are in the season, and even though I currently like December 25 as a rapture possibility, I increasingly think it could be any moment now. Thanks for a great response. So was the date of the Rev 12:1-2 sign! :-)It didn't need to be; or it was unnecessary; or could have been 'reserved' for future discovery - the date has (potentially) been interpolated for us by the 'knowledge increase' of the last days. Though I agree with you about infallibility in the purest sense, could we make the same argument (lack of infallibility) for the date of the Rev 12:1-2 sign? Or should we reserve to 'infallible' the interpretation of the Rev 12:1-2 sign, which has not been definitively given in scripture? Similarly then, reserving to 'infallibility' the fact that such information was not definitively disclosed in scripture? That is, just because God didn't give us the information explicitly, should we then assume that such information will never be discoverable? It can be very useful if discoverable though 'knowledge increasing'. The ability that God has given humanity, to increase our knowledge, which is inherent in our design (imho), requires us to consider that the information not overtly provided in scripture, is nevertheless discoverable (Gen 4:14, Jer 1:5, Job 38:31 - Orion's belt stars and Pleiades stars are gravitationally linked, Job 38:33 - astrophysics). Hammers, cars, guns, et al are tools. All of which were discoverable, right? God didnt put the recipe for how to make a hammer in the scripture? Inventions are the application of the physical laws, which were created by God. Yet just because something is discoverable, does not mean that it cannot be turned to an evil purpose. Each of the previously listed items can be used to murder, right? Or they can be used for good deeds in furtherance of a holy God's intent which was, imho, giving us the inherent ability to discover God's creation, and then 'discover' how to use it. That includes being able to discover the birthdate of Christ. FWIW, I have 0 problem with the fall feasts being fulfilled in 2024; or whenever the 2nd coming is. But if it's 2024, and despite 'the ides of march [not being done yet]' the window is rapidly closing for the current mathematically viable interpretation. |
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Post by linda on Nov 15, 2017 21:30:17 GMT -6
Very interesting discussion. Something I really don't understand, though, is why everyone assumes the tribulation has to end in 2024. Is it just because it is 7 years after the Rev. 12 sign? Or is there more?
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Post by yardstick on Nov 15, 2017 23:25:04 GMT -6
Very interesting discussion. Something I really don't understand, though, is why everyone assumes the tribulation has to end in 2024. Is it just because it is 7 years after the Rev. 12 sign? Or is there more? There are a number of hypotheses that use, as a baseline, that Christ will fulfill each of the Jewish feasts. These hypotheses are predicated on the theory that Christ has already fulfilled the first 4 of 7: Passover ('palm sunday'), Unleavened Bread (death and burial), and Firstfruits (resurrection), with Pentecost (giving of the holy Spirit). Therefore, it is believed that the Lord's second coming (Rosh Hashana - Day of Shouts/Trumpets), followed by Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) [not sure which event fulfills this one] and Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) when the Lord sets up his millennial kingdom. Someone please correct me if I have incorrectly stated the parallels of the feast ful-filments. Since the Rev 12:1-2 sign, which was believed to be the signal that the harpazo (rapture) was no longer imminent - it was here (many believed it was going to occur within a few days of the sign), it has been necessary to re-evaluate the expected timing of the harpazo. When Yom Kippur and Sukkot passed this year with no harpazo; some, including myself have developed a hypothesis that the feasts are for the Jews (and thus, the Tribulation/Jacob's Trouble) but the Harpazo is for the Saved (generally Gentiles, with exceptions) - Christians, and is not tied to a specific feastday. This hypothesis is in no way mutually exclusive of the former hypothesis. If anything, it supplements it by allowing the Feast ful-filments as previously described, but with the un-aligned harpazo caveat. It simply allows the ful-filments to continue to apply to the Jews (The first 4 were for the Jews too, if you look carefully at the audience experiencing them.), while not shoe-horning Christians into the Jewish holidays. I hope this helps clarify. |
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Post by bruce on Nov 16, 2017 8:36:27 GMT -6
Great discussion everyone. I want to respond to both Disciple4Life and Yardstick:
Disciple4Life says "In my humble opinion, I don't think that the earth reeling like a drunkard, will affect/ involve the sun/ moon - and the reason, is that if there is a cataclysmic event, - comet slams into the earth, and altered Earth's orbit or rotation, or make such a huge trauma that we couldn't know the lunar feasts, then we couldn't even tell normal days, and then this would make the 1260 days meaningless, as well as the 1290 days for the second half."
I have generally felt this way too until recently which is why I was willing to continue to do the math with day counts to determine the last possible date the tribulation could start every year for the second coming to happen on feasts 7 years later. What changed my mind really was watching a documentary on Genesis where the filmmaker went to the Grand Canyon and talked about all the cataclysms that would have occurred to form the canyon in a very short amount of time. Layers of earth are torn off the ground and redeposited elsewhere, bringing the dead remains of fish from the ocean and land animals from other regions. When the flood was over, there was so much moisture in the air that the ice caps swelled causing the ice age. At the same time creation scientists believe the upheavals on the earth caused many of the present day mountain ranges, including the Himalayas, to jut out of the earth towards the sky. This is all dramatic stuff just from 40 days of rain. Now, if the "reeling like a drunkard" has even the slightest effect on the tilt of the earth or the speed of its rotation, that would have massive implications for the seasons. That said, I don't think it necessarily has to destroy the concept of days all together. There can still be day and night and 2520 days between the covenant and the second coming, but what the seasons will look like during that time might be nothing like we would expect if based on how the seasons operate today. The bottom line is that it's just a variable that injects enough uncertainty about the timing of future feasts to open up the possibility that they might occur at at time we presently don't expect, thus allowing the tribulation (and preceding rapture) also to occur at a time that we presently don't expect. I don't think it makes the day counts or feasts meaningless, just harder to predict. If anyone can allow dramatic upheaval on the earth and still preserve the prophetic day counts AND fulfill all the fall feasts, it is God.
Disciple4Life says: "I also think that aside from Halloween, Dec 25th was the Pagan holiday of the Sun God - I think that it's the second to the last, least possible day of the year. I don't think God would choose a pagan holiday as his wedding day, and I don't see even remotely how this would provoke the Jews to jealousy.
Just my own 2 cents."
The reason for the December 25 date is because that is the day that Jupiter enters Libra which could be seen as the throne room of heaven since it represents judgment (see the unsealed Revelation 12 Compendium article). If you are familiar with Rick Larson's work, then you might also recall that it was on December 25, 2 BC that Jupiter went retrograde over Bethlehem, leading him to speculate that this was the date that the Magi arrived in Bethlehem and first laid eyes on Jesus. The fact that December 25 is the day Christians celebrate Christmas may be coincidence, or it could be that God is redeeming the day. Whether or not the date has pagan origins is actually disputed. I did some research on this once. No one can actually find a reference to a pagan festival on December 25 that pre-dates Jesus. Those festivals were in later centuries, so we don't know whether Christmas preceded the pagan festivals or vice versa, but according to the record of the church, it seems that some church official concluded that Jesus was conceived on March 25 because he had calculated that as the date of the crucifixion (today more scholars think it was April 3) and there was also an ancient belief that important people died on their conception date. If Jesus had been conceived on March 25 then he would have likely been born 9 months later on December 25. I think this is likely how the celebration of Christmas started. There are many assumptions that are likely wrong in determining that to be the date of Jesus' birth, but it none-the-less seems unlikely that the date was chosen because it is pagan, and it is entirely possible that this was the date that the Magi saw Jesus and presented him with their gifts. If we are raptured that day, it could be the day that we cast our crowns before Jesus :-)
Yardstick says "It didn't need to be; or it was unnecessary; or could have been 'reserved' for future discovery - the date has (potentially) been interpolated for us by the 'knowledge increase' of the last days. Though I agree with you about infallibility in the purest sense, could we make the same argument (lack of infallibility) for the date of the Rev 12:1-2 sign? Or should we reserve to 'infallible' the interpretation of the Rev 12:1-2 sign, which has not been definitively given in scripture? Similarly then, reserving to 'infallibility' the fact that such information was not definitively disclosed in scripture? That is, just because God didn't give us the information explicitly, should we then assume that such information will never be discoverable? It can be very useful if discoverable though 'knowledge increasing'. The ability that God has given humanity, to increase our knowledge, which is inherent in our design (imho), requires us to consider that the information not overtly provided in scripture, is nevertheless discoverable (Gen 4:14, Jer 1:5, Job 38:31 - Orion's belt stars and Pleiades stars are gravitationally linked, Job 38:33 - astrophysics)."
I agree with you in principle, I just don't personally think the case for the timing of Jesus' birth has been definitively proven or revealed. The Revelation 12 sign on September 23 can be clearly demonstrated and tied to scripture. It is a fact that the celestial bodies aligned the way they did on that day, and the connection with Revelation 12:1-2 is plain for anyone to see. The same is not true for the birth of Jesus. If anything, this past fall has shown just how fallible our theories can be when put to the test. Many rapture predictions that seemed like a sure thing based on implications of feast days and day counts have fallen by the way side when put to the test of time and the result has been that our assumptions and understanding of the feasts have evolved. When it comes to the the birth of Jesus, there is no way to test our theories without a time machine to travel back and look for ourselves, but I don't have a lot of confidence that anyone has proven it beyond a reasonable doubt. It's entirely possible that some faulty assumptions are present in those theories just as they were present in the rapture speculations. That's not to say that people shouldn't speculate about the timing of Jesus' birth, I just think we should be careful building too much in the way of theories or predictions on unprovable theories about when it occurred.
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Post by cwood85 on Nov 16, 2017 8:52:29 GMT -6
bruceOn the one hand, this would render moot a lot of speculation that occurs (and that I have participated in) based on projected feast days 7 years hence and could be seen as vindicating those who like to throw cold water on date speculations. I am a proud date speculator so I don't fault anyone for doing that, but on the plus side, this could give us all hope that the rapture is indeed imminent, even if our best date speculations expire on us in the days ahead. World events and celestial events continue to say soon. I have seen it pointed out that Jupiter, which seems to represent the Body of Christ, enters Libra, possibly representing the Throne of Heaven, on none other than Christmas Day 2017! That's certainly too late for our standard day counts, but when we realize that the tribulation could very well tear to shreds our ability to predict feast days 7 years from now, that makes Christmas Day once more a real rapture possibility, if not some date before then. If our Lord would like to come and get us on Christmas this year, He is more than welcome!!! Any day is fine by me, but Christmas is my birthday ❤️💕✝️ 😇
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