The Kingdom of God

Questions/Comments from Natalie and barbiosheepgirl

So there are a couple questions and comments here that I will respond to. This is what I see:

1. How can the man of lawlessness be within believers? Which is combined with the comment "it's not speaking of believers"
2. What about the covenant to Abraham?
3. If I stumble and do something not of faith when the rapture comes, am I not part of the barley harvest? 
4. If one must be here thru to the wheat harvest, will they be part of this delusion? 

I'll get right on answering / responding to these....

Point 2:
There are multiple covenants. Some of them replace other covenants. Some were conditional and some where not. It would be worth doing an entire study just on the covenants. As a matter of fact, by studying the covenants we can also make another case for Restoration.

But in the case of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - the promises to them and their descendants was not merely genetic. When we hear that their descendants would be like the sand and the stars, the promise includes believers - we are also children of Abraham. The covenant made to Abram when God walked between the animals does not have a duration provided. So one cannot be sure when it is considered to be ended. Certainly, God did give the land to Abram’s descendents and his descendants were many. So, this was fulfilled for many years. Perhaps I missed a timeframe in Gen. 15?


Points 3:
I have not been very specific about what differentiates the barley from the wheat. This is partially because it is contentious and partly because it is one of those thing that is not well defined. It should probably be its own thread.

But, I will say it is not based on our level of perfection. I’m hesitant to just state things outright without more justification, but it is more about a state of spirit then about individual moments and actions. So, if you are barley, you are not going to miss the barley resurrection/rapture because of a moment of walking in the flesh. If that was the case, no one could be barley. None of us walk in the spirit 100%. Also, so much of this is the work of the Holy Spirit and not our own.

Perhaps I will put a more complete post together on just this concept, but for now I’ll stick to the questions.

Even though there is a distinction between barley and wheat, and even though there is different fruit produced from each, it is not the deeds of either group that makes them what they are. It is the level of Pentecost that one has walked in. This is more a state of soul (like a state of mind, but the mind of the soul). It does not change in and out depending on our deeds, but our deeds are definitely effected by the state of our soul.

If our life is one of resting in Him and taking up our cross and denying the flesh and following the spirit, we have progressed far into Pentecost. Keep in mind, this is not about appearing this way before men. God doesn’t care what we look like before men. He knows the real us. It is not about forcing ourselves to do the right thing - it is about our desires being reshaped so that we we desire what God desires.

Sure we will still err. We will satisfy our flesh now and then. We may not even be completely in sync with God’s desire, but He is watching our journey.

So, the answer to #3 is No. You cannot stumble and loose your barley calling.

Point 4:
The timing may be misunderstood. Partially because I am being a bit vague about it. This is intentional on my part. This delusion, spoken of in 2 Thes 2, will be removed at the coming of Christ. When the man of lawlessness is destroyed, so will the delusion be removed. The delusion is what allows the man of lawlessness to be hidden. Once the man of lawlessness is revealed, the delusion will no longer be necessary. Let me say this another way, the delusion is the cause of the man of lawlessness to be hidden.

So, when Christ comes and the barley harvest occurs, the delusion will vanish, the man of lawlessness will be consumed by the presence of the Lord. The wheat and grapes will not continue in the delusion. As a matter of fact, just the opposite will be happening as the Spirit of God is poured out upon the earth, many will come into the kingdom during that time. Let me be clear, this time will be amazing for the wheat even though they have not been given immortal bodies yet. They will still be walking with the Lord and with much more effective ministries then they ever dreamed possible. And many will become barley during this time. The kingdom will grow rapidly. So, No, the wheat will no longer be under the delusion of 2 Thes. 2:11.

Point 1:
Ok, let’s deal with this issue of the man of lawlessness within believers. This is where our belief system shapes our perception of scripture. I don’t say that as an insult. I can be just as guilty as anyone else. But if one believes that anything on earth can be the temple of God other than His people, then they can see the man of lawlessness sitting in that place.

But, if you believe as I do, that there is no place on earth that can be or will be called the temple of God, then there is only one place this man of lawlessness can sit and declare Himself to be God. Now that is not the only place the man of lawlessness is. Just like a person can sit in the car. That does not mean that the car is the only place that person can be.  The man of lawlessness is spirit. Not a physical person.  If he was a person, then how could Paul and John both claim that the lawlessness and antichrist were already existing 1900 years ago?

Notice that Paul says this mystery of lawlessness is already active - 1900 years ago. So it is not something new that happens. Paul did not say, sometime in the future there will be a man of lawlessness that will need to be revealed. No, the man of lawlessness was already hidden even then. The man of lawlessness was already active - John says the antichrists have already come - Paul says we must cast out Hagar - even then.

So, if this is something that has been going on for centuries, and if the only temple of God is within us. It cannot be talking about a person that will come along in 20xx and sit in a stone and wooden temple in a city that Paul has told us to cast out.

Now, let’s go back to the area of Point 1’s concern:

2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God allows His people to be deceived. He did it to Israel. He has done it to His believers. He even allows Satan to deceive us.  For those who have read the Restoration page, you know that to perish is the same as to be lost. But we also know that lost things can be found. So the fact that the word perish is used should not, in anyway imply a none believers. Believers are perishing all around us moment by moment. Especially because they are under a strong delusion - so that they believe lies. As a matter of fact, Endless torment, annihilation, works based salvation, etc. are all some of the lies that they perish under.

How long did the church perish in the middle ages?  How many false doctrines and teachings were in play during the crusades?  The man of lawlessness cause all this. That man of lawlessness is within each of us - which is why he needs to be revealed. Because we don't believe he is even there.  I am not saying Satan is within us, but the spirit of lies he spreads finds many homes.

How many “backslidden” Christians do we all know? How many Christians don’t spend a moment with God, don’t care about God other than going to church now and then. They believe, but in their personal walk of faith they are perishing. Reminder - this does not mean going to hell. They do not love the truth, they don’t even care about the truth. And therefore they will not be saved from the judgement that is to come. But this does not mean they go to hell. Please see the Restoration of All Things thread if you wish to fully understand about this.

Before someone claims that we are not appointed to wrath - this earth is under God’s wrath constantly. Judgement is what brings us out of our sin. We must start to see God’s judgement as a positive instead of a negative. Some are submitting themselves to his judgment moment by moment in their current walks. Others are not - those others are perishing now and will need to experience a judgement later that brings about their change of heart and soul.

I really don’t want to come off as knowing it all. I totally get how foreign this interpretation is and I see why some would disagree with me. So as humbly as I can say in writing, this is not easy stuff. Almost nothing I have brought to this forum is easy. But the reason it is not easy is not because the verses we are looking at - it is because of the framework that has been ingrained within us. I submit these things to the Lord multiple times a day. It is the attitude of my heart. I’m not looking to be right. This is just what I see. But in my own spirit, these things make a lot more sense then the current end times theories that I see being taught today and the vast number of holes they contain.

It takes lining up several of the things we have been learning to see what this verse is talking about. We have to see perishing as not meaning going to hell. We have to see that Christians can walk in a state blindness. We have to see that God blinds the eye of His servant. We have to see that God does not anymore honor a temple made with the hands of men, but rather has put His temple within his body. We have to see that the mystery of lawlessness was already active back in Paul’s time. We also have see that the son of perdition is a repeat performance that must be performed by someone close to Jesus in the latter days.


I don’t know if these answers were satisfactory, ladies. Please let me know if there is something better I could say to help show you my vision.

SK

I was looking at The covenant in Genesis 15 because you mentioned God walking between the animals. This promise in genesis 17 does include the word everlasting but once again that's the same word that we have shown to mean for an age.

Having said that, the whole earth will be given to the descendants of Abraham. This includes the land of Canaan and the descendants of Abraham includes the believers. It is not a promise to genetic people it is a promise to the seed of Abraham.

wow, boraddict!  I havent gotten that far in my rereading, but look forward to getting there...

Sk says: "We also have see that the son of perdition is a repeat performance that must be performed by someone close to Jesus in the latter days.
" 

Is this Judas?

the latter days.... of this present age or at the end of the millenial?

First of all, dear Lord God Almighty, who sent is Son Jesus to save us all, thank you for sending SK to this forum to share an insight worthy of evaluation.  May it speak to each one of us and reveal and correct any flaws either from SK or those of us conversing back and forth in this forum.  We are nearing a crucial moment in time and we want to be ready either as barley or wheat for your work to usher in You Kingdom, and we all have seriously been needing to get to know You better so we can Hear you better.. Amen.

And SK how are you?  How is family time?  let your family know that your work here is of much importance and that we appreciate the time that you can spend here on Unsealed.  We all have lives to live outside this forum..

I started the 70 weeks fulfilled thread with it being as humble a start as possible.  I noticed at least for about a dozen threads under the category 70 weeks that no one was saying it was fulfilled thru the 70th week.  I kinda wanted to get some of those who are not following SK to bring in thoughts.  If the 70th is fulfilled, than this changes much of the timeline of a tribulation and frankly, I am lost now on a reference point.  (except for the Great sign, praise Jesus!) But I am only half a day into resorting my virtual coffee table of end times papers strewn out everywhere...  

HEY SK!  The word virtual...  Virtual Israel versus Physical Israel!  lolol...

Like others I started reading in Genesis last week and came across ch. 17 and noticed the "everlasting covenant" and was reminded of the Restoration thread and the terms used there for time/ages. Upon seeing this response I went to Strongs  to review the word used here. 

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity

NASB Translation

ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1).

I have searched for the Hebrew word that means or equates to "forever" and this is the closest word to it, but it seems there is no word for word for "forever". Perhaps I just didnt locate it, However if this is the (closest) word, then any translation of everlasting or forever could be skewed to have some ending point or replacement, right? The restoration thread (page 1) shows the greek Aion but nothing of the Hebrew. Can you help clarify this?

mike - as to the Hebrew word for forever.

There are several words that are translated with some version of long periods or endless periods of time.

Olam is the word most associated in meaning to Aionios. We know this by looking in the Septuagint. The Septuagint was a greek translation of the Hebrew old testament. It was accomplished by Hebrew men who spoke both Greek and Hebrew. So they selected the best words they could in Greek to represent the Hebrew words. They used aionios for olam.  They represent Age, a finite but indefinite period of time.

There are a couple other words in Hebrew that also speak of time frames:

Kedhem
Kedhem is used to refer to the ancient past or to the east. There are at least 80 verses that use this word so I won't quote them here. Half of them are used to indicate east (God planted a Garden in the East[kedhem] is an example). The other half refer to the ancient past and typically claim that God is from that time (everlasting) meaning - from the ancient past - before memory. There is a reason that God chose to have the sun rise in the east!
It is never connected to any type of punishment. It is never connected to the wicked or used to represent anything along the lines of Hell.

Adh
Adh is usually translated "forever". However, it is a little confused with itself. For instance:

Hab. 3:6 He stood and surveyed the earth; He looked and startled the nations. Yes, the perpetual[Adh] mountains were shattered, The ancient hills collapsed. His ways are everlasting[Olam].

Many translations use everlasting instead of perpetual here. Perpetual is better. In this scripture we have two uses of everlasting - the first is Adh, the second is Olam. The first everlasting refers to the mountains, but in the same breath indicates that they will be shattered! So Adh cannot really claim they are everlasting in their current form - perhaps the stones are everlasting, but they will not retain their shape?

Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal[Adh] Father, Prince of Peace.

Here Eternal Father or (everlasting Father) is the same word: Adh. Cleary the Father will not be broken - then again - this passage is referring to Jesus and he was, indeed, broken. When going through the Old Testament we tend to find that a literal translation of this word is "to the end". It is often used in conjunction with Olam to create the phrase "forever and ever". As we will found when we studied Olam and Aionus - these words mean age(among other meanings). And the true meaning of this combination then becomes "to the end of the ages". The main thing to retain about Adh is that it is time based and means "to the end."

We are conditioned to think of forever as without end because that is our mindset and because we also are anxious to "get outta here" and start our next life.  We need to realize two things:

1.  We need to stop thinking about our next life and start thinking about the next movement of God.
2.  We need to understand that God created a set of ages and almost everything in scriptures is talking about things from the perspective of those ages.  Not endlessness.  Once in a while we will see a scripture that is actually referring to unending or non-beginning.  But the vast majority of what God is talking to us about - is within the timeframe of the ages that He made for us.  If we could start thinking that way, a lot of scripture would make a lot more sense.

It sounds like I should start a thread on the covenants.  There are several of them and they have various conditions attached.  However, some were unconditional and spell out another justification for Restoration.  

With all respect to you SK I just dont see what you are saying here. You are taking other areas of scripture and applying them to the verse and meaning of the verse in question. We dont need to do that in this case as the verse already explains itself. Moreover the OT was written in Hebrew, why would I go to the translation of the translation to try to understand the meaning of a word that has a meaning translated to mean forever/without end?

While I see your point about thinking about our next life, I am not looking at this in any other way than trying to understand how this applies to me and now. I have more than enough to concern myself with each day that I do not sit daydreaming about walking on clouds - I dont mean that to sound harsh, but I do not want to belabor the point

How am I?  In need of prayer.  Feeling a bit like Elijah in the cave.