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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 15:12:08 GMT -6
Actually, Ephraim is represented by the tribe of Joseph in the list. Welcome!
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 16, 2017 15:53:15 GMT -6
Welcome, Paul, and that is an interesting take on the Ephraim and Dan question. I had never thought of that possibility before.  |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 16, 2017 15:54:26 GMT -6
Actually, Ephraim is represented by the tribe of Joseph in the list. Welcome! That is what I have always assumed, Beloved, and I still hold out that this may be the case. |
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Post by findtruth on Jun 17, 2017 8:50:22 GMT -6
I believe that the 12 tribes of Israel are separate from the church and make up part of the 144,000( 12,000 from each tribe). So the tribe of Dan is not part of the church. Welcome Paul!
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 17, 2017 12:10:58 GMT -6
Dan has his portion in the land during the millenium, which is reassuring.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 12:53:23 GMT -6
Rt,
During the half hour, I see a Heavenly picture of Numbers 16. Angels pouring out incense, sealing and protecting God's chosen people in the midst of a world challenging Jesus' authority. Notice that pestilence was poured out in number 16 and I can't help but wonder that in the 30 minutes of silence that the coals being poured out by the angels may actually arrive on earth as meteors and such!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 13:15:52 GMT -6
Hi Paul! Welcome! I like your heart already!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 13:56:08 GMT -6
I have a question, rt. So, you think the great multitude is the Church, right? However, the text says, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.", in Revelation 7:14. They have come out of the tribulation; therefore they couldn't be the Church. It also says they will serve in God's temple, while Jesus says the Church will be pillars in His temple. These serve in the temple; the Church is the temple.
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Post by rt on Jun 17, 2017 15:18:20 GMT -6
Rt, During the half hour, I see a Heavenly picture of Numbers 16. Angels pouring out incense, sealing and protecting God's chosen people in the midst of a world challenging Jesus' authority. Notice that pestilence was poured out in number 16 and I can't help but wonder that in the 30 minutes of silence that the coals being poured out by the angels may actually arrive on earth as meteors and such! An interesting thought. However I see more of a correlation to the day of Atonement but who knows?? I wonder about the coals too, as meteorites or comets. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 17, 2017 15:28:55 GMT -6
I have a question, rt. So, you think the great multitude is the Church, right? However, the text says, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.", in Revelation 7:14. They have come out of the tribulation; therefore they couldn't be the Church. It also says they will serve in God's temple, while Jesus says the Church will be pillars in His temple. These serve in the temple; the Church is the temple. I believe what rt has shown about this question (back a ways in this thread) is that the Greek words allow for the meaning of "came out of the great tribulation" to actually be "kept from (having to be in) the great tribulation." If you back-track through the thread, I believe it is back there a ways, maybe near the beginning. Determining the meaning of this one verse definitely makes a huge difference for rt's postulations. |
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Post by rt on Jun 17, 2017 15:42:03 GMT -6
I have a question, rt. So, you think the great multitude is the Church, right? However, the text says, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.", in Revelation 7:14. They have come out of the tribulation; therefore they couldn't be the Church. It also says they will serve in God's temple, while Jesus says the Church will be pillars in His temple. These serve in the temple; the Church is the temple. I answer this earlier in the thread here unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture?page=9I also explain about the robes being washed as well here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture?page=7As for the temple "issue" I agree that while on earth the church serves as the temple of the Holy Spirit. Remember there was an earthly temple that was patterned after the heavenly temple. The earthly temple was a literal temple, where God spoke to men, scripture refers to it as the footstool of God's heavenly throne. Since Jesus died and rose again the earthy Jewish Temple is no longer needed, therefore as followers of Christ filled with the Holy Spirit we now serve as the footstool of God's throne on earth. We are God's voice to mankind. But when John talks about the temple in Revelation 7, he is not talking about the earthly temple, rather he is talking about the heavenly temple where the seat of God's throne is. The place where John was called up into. There is no contradiction, when our physical bodies are regenerated and glorified we are no longer the "earthly temple" we come into the heavenly temple where we will serve God as His "pillars". Not literal pillars, but we will serve Him as support of His truth: Hope this helps you understand where I am coming from a bit better |
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Post by rt on Jun 30, 2017 9:48:30 GMT -6
In the thread found here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/348/understanding-beginning-revelations?page=2&scrollTo=3243 Gary said : I do not see any contradiction between Christ's words concerning end times and this theory. In Matthew 24, Jesus answers the disciples question about His coming and the end of the age. This was precipitated by Christ predicting that the temple would be utterly destroyed. Jesus replies to them with a list of events that will take place: The following Christ calls the beginning of birth pains:
False Christs Rumors of war nation against nation kingdom against kingdom famines earthquakes The disciples saw these things happen in their own lifetimes. They are not things exclusive to any specific time period, in fact they existed even before Jesus, including false Christs. he goes on to say that: The disciples would be delivered to tribulation disciples would be killed disciples would be hated false prophets will arise lawlessness will increase the love of many will grow cold I think that these effects are also birth pains, and again the disciples saw these things happen in their lifetimes to varying degrees, but as with labor pains, they continue and intensify. These same effects would follow with successive generations of believers, who endure in their time to the end of their lives and are saved. Within these labor pains we can see some of the effects of the seals. Conquerors (kingdom against kingdom), wars (rumors and nations against nations), famine, death, martyrdom. The prerequisite to the coming "end" is:The gospel shall be preached to the whole world as a testimony to all the nations. With this statement Jesus, has now changed from birth pains, to "the end". Remember the question asked by the disciples: "when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age?"
Jesus now points to events that will lead up to the end (of the age):The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (as spoken of by Daniel) Those in Judea flee to the mountains Great tribulation False Christs and prophets great signs and wonders Then Jesus points to events that lead to His coming, immediately after the (great) tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened the moon will not give its light the stars will fall from the sky the powers of the heavens will be shaken the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky all the earth will see Him and mourn He sends forth His angels with a great trumpet, to gather the elect from one end of the sky to the other The parallel account in Mark 13, says that the elect are gathered from the farthest ends of heaven and earth. The parallel passage in Luke 21 says that people are to flee to the mountains when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, which signifies that her desolation is near. It also says that her people will fall by the sword and be led captive into the nations, and that Jerusalem will be trampled by the gentiles until the time of the gentiles is finished. cont'd |
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Post by rt on Jun 30, 2017 10:18:59 GMT -6
I have had this debate with others on another site I frequent. I do not know what you see that is contradictory, but most I have discussed this with, see the signs in the sun and moon as contradictions. They see them fulfilled at the opening of the sixth seal. However I would point out that the moon will still give forth light. Matthew's account tells us that the moon will not give forth light. but what John sees at the removal of the sixth seal is the full moon turning to blood. A blood moon is still producing light, albeit diminished, but John clearly still sees the moon as it turns red like blood:
Others see the gathering event of Matthew 24:31 as a contradiction.
This gathering clearly takes place after the great tribulation, around the time of Christ's return to earth. So this cannot represent a pretribulation rapture event, I do not believe that this is a resurrection event. IMO I see this as the gathering together of all believers, those on earth who I believe are the 144,000 and all those in heaven. He gathers them for the battle of Armageddon.
By the way, another interesting thing about this gathering is that it is done by angels and not by Christ Himself. He is the trumpet that sends His angels forth to accomplish this gathering. While at the rapture He Himself does the gathering
The Lord shouts with the voice of a an archangel and trumpet, there is not an archangel who does this for Him, He does it Himself.
Those are objections of others, as I said I do not know what your objections would be, and where you may see a contradiction. I am very curious to know what they might be. Perhaps you would care to elaborate.
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Post by delo63 on Jul 1, 2017 22:04:18 GMT -6
I agree with RT because it doesn't make sense that the antichrist would gain so much power and be allowed to operate the way that he will if the church is still around.
Think about it Christian's still to this day have influence in the world and the reason the birth pangs have been delayed has been because Christ still working through His church. If we were to stay to the end or even the middle of the tribulation there is no way the church would allow it, the one world government, one world religion, one world currency, it can't happen until we're gone because we are holding these things from happening. Or I should say Christ is holding it at bay and using us to aid.
If the pretrib rapture is incorrect then the whole idea that we would sit idly by and allow the antichrist full control just doesn't add up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 13:31:57 GMT -6
I also noticed that the first half of the tribulation, God will be dealing with the Gentile nations. It would be awfully hard for true Christians to operate in a nation that was being judged. Having the government and everything around us Cursed , because it seems like it would be impossible for us to live in (obeying authority, etc).
The only other picture I can think of is when Israel was taken into Babylon. And still you get the picture of people going into 'captivity'... of the world. As Christ followers we would not be part of a disobedient people, again we are 'in Christ'... who was an 'obedient' one.
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