Anti-Christ

witness1 said: I am curious about everyone's thoughts about the idea that THE antichrist will come from the church like "the many antichrists" do.

EDIT: I was just thinking about how the Catholic church believes that the pope has a direct line to God and is the spokesman of God... it wouldn't be a far jump to say God has indwelled him as the savior of the world.



Completely plausible (though I see the Pope fulfilling the role of the False Prophet). Judas was one of the 12 chosen by Jesus. He believed and followed Jesus for 3 years, then he betrayed his Lord. Jesus calls him the "son of perdition".

Likewise, Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 calls THE Antichrist "the son of perdition".

"3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" It is interesting that the ESV translation translates the word to "that" instead of "the." In the greek it is definitely the (ho).  


NASB Version:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for [it will not come] unless the apostasy (This is interesting the word apostasy/apostasia is translated this way. I know this word has been discussed frequently. My keyword study bible has some very interesting details regarding this word. In some other translations it is translated as the falling away or even departure. However it notes the verb that is used for this word is to place oneself away or stand away from someone. Not in the sense of removal either, but as a distance. It is used to mean the purpose of not incurring the dangers of that association. It states the understanding behind this was people who called themselves Christians on the outside, but once persecution started,  these people no longer associated themselves as a Christian. In other words, those who are not really faithful.) comes first, and the man (or men as in humans/mankind?) of lawlessness (sin or opposed to Christ) is revealed, the son (this is also used for descendant (figuratively) anyone sharing the same nature as their Father. Who is described as sharing the nature of their father the devil? The pharisees/unbelievers who had no faith and relied on their works and status to be "holy" or do not believe at all) of destruction (this word is interesting as well in the Greek: apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being. Not so much as a destroyed type of destruction.) , 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

I hope I am not coming across as being combative or anything of that sort, and I am no language expert. I just think there is a whole lot more to these verses than what is being understood. And I think from the above details given, that is somewhat clear. It is also interesting to note that anytime the word himself it is used in one of these verses, the verb in the language is actually neuter, not defining male or female. That is something I am looking more into. 

In regards to the Holy Spirit and our bodies being the temple of God and Paul being the one who is stating this in his letters that if he is referring to the temple of God wouldn't we naturally assume that is what he means? In other passages when Paul goes to the temple in Jerusalem, the word that is used is specifically for the temple (hieron) in Jerusalem or a physical location. However when he describes us as being the temple of God, he uses a different word entirely (naos: a temple, a shrine, that part of the temple where God himself resides. properly, a sanctuary (divine dwelling-place); a temple (sacred abode), the place of divine manifestation.) This is also the same word he uses to describe the one of lawlessness who is sitting in the temple of God in 2 Thess. 2:4. God will not be dwelling in the future/third temple that the Jewish people are trying to build. Naos only refers to a temple that God actually dwelling in. Hieron just means a temple building. Just some opinions and researching that I have done regarding these verses. 

Editing to comment on the quoted Revelation verses. The same word NAOS is used in those verses as well, not a physical temple building. So would that make the temple being measured us?

Hi cwood85. I appreciate the discussion, no offense taken. Sticking to my guns, I copied this from a site and it sums up what I am thinking here (please excuse the CAPS. I am not screaming at you, this is how it was formatted on the site):

HERMENEUTICS: THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION


WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.


A. SEEK THE PLAIN, LITERAL MEANING OF THE SCRIPTURES

1. The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its face value, if possible.

2. The following is an analysis of the adjectives "primary," "ordinary," and "usual."

3. "Primary" emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term.

4. "Ordinary" and "usual" are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, "usual" being employed for the sake of emphasis.

5. "Literal" is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning.

B. SEEK THE FIGURATIVE MEANING ONLY WHEN THE FACTS

DEMAND SUCH AN INTERPRETATION

1. Modernism and rationalism are the logical outgrowth of forcing a figurative meaning upon a passage that is clearly literal, or vice versa.

C. STUDY EVERY STATEMENT OF THE SCRIPTURES IN CONTEXT

("A TEXT APART FROM ITS CONTEXT IS A PRETEXT")

Then study the facts of the context in the light of related passages and axiomatic fundamental truths. No prophecy of scripture is of private (special) interpretation (II Peter 1:20); The sum of thy word is truth (Psalm 119:160).


Now we would need to have a discussion about translations, because cases can be made for differing interpretations based on particular translations. Oh boy!

cwood85 - I didnt think you were being combative or were you   - kidding just wanted to use the ninja emoji

I was thinking about this more yesterday and thought that we are here "debating" if there is an anti-christ (sole person) or if the spirit of anti-christ is what we should be anticipating. We who believe and are diligently watching may not ever figure out which is accurate but we should be able to concede that either or both may be true and should watch for both. At least that is how I feel about it, I clearly see (as noted in an earlier post) that evil has been here for 2000 yrs...(really all 6 thousand) but as John tells us: 
  

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And I think we can see this climaxing, building to a breaking point. that is the anti-christ spirit. Those like fitz who have been diligently watching for A LOT longer than I have would also concur that we are reaching that point. If we arent then I cant imagine how much more immoral this world will become. Based on what we can read in our bibles and other historic texts we are living in the days of Naoh & Lot!

My thoughts here were couple with what witness1 and (maybe Fitz) were tossing around. The possibility of the Pope being an anti-christ of sorts, etc. This is where I got thinking. While possible there is a certain person who people would flock to a leader like the Pope, what do those who are outside of the "watch" group as Christians think? For example, my brother doesnt watch like I do, but he's certainly saved and would absolutely recognize the Pope or any other person claiming to be the Vicar or other representation of God on earth as a false messiah, anti-christ (spirit).  So this is gauged to those who arent discerning enough and would trust someone to that degree. Then that got me thinking further about the anti-christ spirit and how that affects others in the world and what they hope for and look to.

for example Muslims are expecting their version of the savior to come in the final Mahdi.

The Mahdi is an eschatological redeemer of Islam who will appear and will rule for five, seven, nine, or nineteen years (according to differing interpretations)[1][2] before the Day of Judgment (yawm al-qiyamah, literally, the Day of Resurrection)[3] and will rid the world of evil.[4]



There is no reference to the Mahdi in the Quran,[5] only in the ahadith (the reports and traditions of Muhammad's teachings collected after his death). In most traditions, Mahdi will arrive with Jesus (Isa) to defeat Masih ad-Dajjal (literally, the "false Messiah" or Antichrist).[6] Although the concept of a Mahdi is not an essential doctrine in Sunni Islam,[7] he is popular among both Sunni and Shia Muslims. Both agree that he will rule over the Muslims and establish justice; however, they differ extensively on his attributes and status. (From Wikipedia)

My point here all ties together with this thought from Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. Certainly people can be possessed, its throughout the bible, but what about Satan himself possessing someone else? Why hasnt he possessed others, or has he? Is it possible he will possess another at the grand finale?

Final thought - whether it is spirit of anti-christ or anti-christ incarnate, we need to point to Christ and His atonement for us

mike, I think you have a good point that true believers would recognize something was awry if a person were to do something unbelievable soon. I do not think that only the people who are watching will be able to see it for what it is. But I do think we may (hopefully) be able to explain it if/when it comes.

One of my favorite articles; formatted here: www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1097-the-son-of-perdition-is-a-patsy/

The Son of Perdition Is a Patsy

When Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested on November 22, 1963, he asked the police what he was being charged with. They told him the murder of President Kennedy. He then said, “So Iʼm the patsy.” A few days later, he was dead and despised.

Whether or not one believes Oswald shot Kennedy, what he said was true: Kennedy was dead, and Kennedyʼs enemies had a patsy to take the blame.

Judas was also patsy. When he threw the blood-money for Jesusʼ betrayal into the holy naos/sanctuary of the Temple (Matt. 27:5) – coins with pagan gods idolized upon them – he committed the Abomination of Desolation for that age. Jesus called him “the Son of Perdition.” John 17:12; 6:70-71 After Judas had been so used by Satan and apostate Jews to effect the death of Jesus, he was then disdained by his masters like the dumb fool he was. And, like Oswald, he became dead and despised soon afterward

The Son of Perdition for our age, a.k.a. the King of the North, will similarly be used as a patsy. He will invade the Middle East, seemingly from the north through Syria, then occupy Israel and subdue Islamic North Africa. Dan. 11:40-43 This Satan-deluded god-man will bring his forces from Europe by means of “ships of Chittim.” Num. 24:23-24 His invasion will inflame the rest of the world, particularly the peoples of Islamic and Jewish Middle East, but also peoples “from the east” – probably Iran and/or China, “and from the north” – Syriaʼs ally Russia. Dan. 11:44 “He shall [then] plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain [that is, the Temple Mount: this will be the Abomination of Desolation for our age], but shall come to his end, and no one will help him.” Dan. 11:45

Like Judas, this patsy will quickly end up dead and despised, because his usefulness to Satan will be over. Satanʼs sole plan for him is to cause world-ending chaos, that is, the Great Tribulation. Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:15, 21 This will cause the collapse of the current worldʼs political system, and set the stage for “a New World Order,” that is, the Beast Kingdom – in which kingdom the Son of Perdition will have no part at all.

Jesus, in his appearance in the clouds to be “seen by every eye” (Rev. 1:17; 6:16 = Sixth Seal), will gather his Elect to himself, even while shepherding the earthly Remnant of Jacob into the “place prepared of [Greek apo: lit. away from] God, that they should feed her there 1260 days.” Matt. 24:31; Rev. 12:6 This Remnant will “have the testimony of Jesus.” Rev. 12:17 But not having prepared themselves for his Coming, they wonʼt be able to ascend to him. Among the Remnant will be the sealed and sanctified 144,000, who will shepherd them during the 1260 days.

As for the Son of Perdition, “…the Lord shall consume [him] with the spirit of his mouth, and shall bring [him] to naught with the brightness of his coming.” 2 Thes. 2:8

The “door” into the heavens will then be quickly “shut” (Matt. 25:10), along with every Spirit-opened eye, leaving forlorn virgins pleading to be allowed in. (“I do not see/perceive [Greek: oida] you,” Jesus will tell them. Matt. 25:11-12) Sometime thereafter, “the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss” (Rev. 11:7), having been released at the Fifth angelic Trumpet (Rev. 9:1-2, 11-12), will proceed to fulfill the “strong delusion” ordained by God. 2 Thes. 2:11 The little horn/Mouth of the Beast will utter his blasphemies against God, deceive the world, and persecute the earthly saints for 1260 days. Dan. 7:8, 25; Rev. 13:5-7

By this time the Son of Perdition, the patsy used by Western apostate Christianity to fully betray its once great heritage –

this deluded god-man, who commits the Abomination of Desolation, which brings to pass the chaos of the Great Tribulation –

he will have become no more than a hiss and a byword of history. Just like Judas, the only other son of perdition, who was used by apostate Judaism to fully betray their own once great heritage. John 17:12

Instead of being the great operator and insider heʼd been duped into believing himself to be, the Son of Perdition will turn out to be just another dumb-fool patsy. Like Judas. Like Oswald.