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Post by boraddict on Apr 14, 2018 19:16:58 GMT -6
Hi davewatchman, I too was convince as you are. However, I had to accept that the midnight to midnight 24 hour day did not exist at the time of Christ's crucifixion. That society marked their time with the setting of the sun. Thus, their night began at sundown and through the night for the first period (night), and then went from sun up and through the day for the daytime period. As you said: "Three Nights: Thursday night. Friday night. Saturday night. Three Days: Friday day. Saturday day. Sunday morning. " I believed this as you do until I read some work by the late E. W. Bullinger. www.therain.org/appendixes/ and www.pilkingtonandsons.com/BullingerBooks.htmAnd two things come to mind. The first thing is that the last supper was not Passover, and Passover that year (Nisan 14) began at the setting of the sun on Wednesday. The reason we know this is because Lord Jesus came out of the tomb on the first day of the week. The first day of the week was from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday. It was during this period of time that Lord Jesus rose from the tomb and the women and then the men came to the garden. The 7th day of the week was sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. This was the third night and day. The 6th day of the week was sundown on Thursday to sundown on Friday. This was the second night and day. The 5th day of the week was sundown on Wednesday to sundown on Thursday. This was the first night and day and the Passover. The 4th day of the week was sundown on Tuesday to sundown on Wednesday. This was the time of the last supper, the time in Gethsemane, the betrayal, the illegal court trial, the time before Pilate and Herod, the time of the crucifixion and the placement in the tomb. Working from Nisan 10 forward: Nisan 10, The Passover lamb was selected. Nisan 11-12, the Passover lamb was inspected for flaws. Nisan 13, the Passover lamb was killed. This was before sundown on Wednesday. He was then put in the tomb. Nisan 14, The Passover from sundown on Wednesday to sundown on Thursday. This was the first night and first day that Lord Jesus was in the tomb. Nisan 15, Sundown on Thursday to sundown on Friday. This was the second night and second day that Lord Jesus was in the tomb. Nisan 16, Sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. This was the third night and third day that Lord Jesus was in the tomb. This was the weekly Sabbath. Nisan 17, Sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday. This was the first day of the week. Lord Jesus came from the tomb sometime between sun down on Saturday and sun up on Sunday. The time was marked from sundown to sundown not midnight to midnight. |
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 15, 2018 8:31:00 GMT -6
Hello Boraddict.
I might be mistaken - wasn't that a mis-type.? You have "started his ministry at Passover 27 AD, and ended his ministry at Passover 28 AD." ?? That's one year.
I think it should be "Started his ministry at Hanukkah 27 AD and ended his ministry at Passover 31 AD. - that's where we get 3 1/2 years.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth - just to clarify ?? ;-)
Thank you D4L. What you have stated is one possibility. However, if we consider that there might be four counts as I referenced above, then the fourth count is by weeks. Thus, there is a count of 70 weeks. It means that the 3.5 years has no application to the Savior's ministry but to the tribulation period from 67 to 70 AD. Thus, all seven years of tribulation are accounted for; because, 3.5 years would come from 67-70 AD and 3.5 years would come from 2018-2021 AD. Consequently, all 70 sevens are accounted for: 7 sevens, 62 sevens, and 1 seven (3.5 + 3.5). Because of that, the count of 70 sevens identifies 27 AD as the start of the Saviors ministry and then the prophecy applies secondarily as a 70 week count. It is believed that the Savior's ministry is 3.5 years; however, an acceptable year to the Lord might in fact be one year as follows: "Isa. 61:1-2, "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted*, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD...."
Luke 4:17-19, 17 "And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
Thus, I am convinced that the acceptable year started Passover 27 AD and ended at Passover 28 AD. The remainder of the 70 weeks is counted both before and after the acceptable year. boraddict, I think it might be good to move this to another thread, so we don't rerail the original one blur started. Maybe a moderator can move the posts that don't apply? I would be very happy to reply, - engage in discussion more there. Aside from the fact that the notion that the first half of the tribulation already happened is not remotely supported by scripture, the notion has more problems than solutions. At the time of Christ they still had the 2nd temple, - 3rd temple was not even destroyed, and there was no rapture, and the Godzilla brothers never appeared. - two witnesses, and many many prophecies had not been fulfilled. Israel was not even a state/nation, and on and and on. Every person certainly has the right to their own opinion, but there are 3 Passovers accounted for during Christ's ministry, - and we also know that Christ was about 30 when he began his ministry. One year ministry doesn't fit secular history nor scripture. Nor is there any evidence from scripture that the 7 year started before Christ started his ministry, nor after.
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Post by davewatchman on Apr 15, 2018 14:08:31 GMT -6
Hi davewatchman, I too was convince as you are. However, I had to accept that the midnight to midnight 24 hour day did not exist at the time of Christ's crucifixion. That society marked their time with the setting of the sun. Thus, their night began at sundown and through the night for the first period (night), and then went from sun up and through the day for the daytime period. I believed this as you do until I read some work by the late E. W. Bullinger. www.therain.org/appendixes/ and www.pilkingtonandsons.com/BullingerBooks.htmAnd two things come to mind. The first thing is that the last supper was not Passover, and Passover that year (Nisan 14) began at the setting of the sun on Wednesday. The reason we know this is because Lord Jesus came out of the tomb on the first day of the week. The first day of the week was from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday. It was during this period of time that Lord Jesus rose from the tomb and the women and then the men came to the garden. The 7th day of the week was sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. This was the third night and day. The 6th day of the week was sundown on Thursday to sundown on Friday. This was the second night and day. The 5th day of the week was sundown on Wednesday to sundown on Thursday. This was the first night and day and the Passover. The 4th day of the week was sundown on Tuesday to sundown on Wednesday. This was the time of the last supper, the time in Gethsemane, the betrayal, the illegal court trial, the time before Pilate and Herod, the time of the crucifixion and the placement in the tomb. Working from Nisan 10 forward: Nisan 10, The Passover lamb was selected. Nisan 11-12, the Passover lamb was inspected for flaws. Nisan 13, the Passover lamb was killed. This was before sundown on Wednesday. He was then put in the tomb. Nisan 14, The Passover from sundown on Wednesday to sundown on Thursday. This was the first night and first day that Lord Jesus was in the tomb. Nisan 15, Sundown on Thursday to sundown on Friday. This was the second night and second day that Lord Jesus was in the tomb. Nisan 16, Sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. This was the third night and third day that Lord Jesus was in the tomb. This was the weekly Sabbath. Nisan 17, Sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday. This was the first day of the week. Lord Jesus came from the tomb sometime between sun down on Saturday and sun up on Sunday. The time was marked from sundown to sundown not midnight to midnight. Hello there boraddict. I can see you've done a fine job of reverse engineering something here. So i'll refrain from being too hyper critical of it at this time. I was talking to this youtube author from Austraila i think, and she also is unshakeable in her two Passovers on passion week hypothesis. She thinks the rapture is going to be in July 2019. I noticed time and date goes all the way back to the 1st century. I used their date to date calculator to try and see if there was a 1290 day parallel during the destruction of Jerusalem. I couldn't find one no matter how hard i tried to fudge the Josephus numbers. Time and dates April AD30 calendar shows the full moon on Friday Nisan 16.  |
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Post by davewatchman on Apr 15, 2018 14:18:56 GMT -6
and there was no rapture, and the Godzilla brothers never appeared. - two witnesses, and many many prophecies had not been fulfilled. That's funny. I would have figured out who you meant by the Godzilla brothers, even if you hadn't followed it up with - two witnesses.  |
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Post by venge on Apr 15, 2018 14:28:54 GMT -6
Why doesn't someone just post the signs we know 100% have to happen for his coming. 1-10 or how many it is. List each one with the Book, Chapter, Verses attached.
Do not list possible prophecies with it. Only list verses that state the Day of the Lord, or the coming of the son of man etc...Then work from there.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 15, 2018 15:39:26 GMT -6
Dave, we need the calendar for April 27 AD (Nisan 27 AD).
Godzilla brothers
Also the Jews at that time did not go by the equinox for Nisan 1 but by the new crescent moon.
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Post by davewatchman on Apr 15, 2018 16:17:37 GMT -6
Dave, we need the calendar for April 27 AD (Nisan 27 AD). Godzilla brothers No you don't. I'm sure you think you do but you don't. Also the Jews at that time did not go by the equinox for Nisan 1 but by the new crescent moon. I know. I know they did boraddict. They were on the wrong day. They were looking for the sliver of the silver moon, Jesus was doing it by conjunction. Who do you think was doing it the right way? That's why there were two Passovers on passion week. Jesus ate the true Passover on Thursday, the Jews were rushing for their erroneous Passover which was a day late. If Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, He must be the genius Star of the Passover. It says in Numbers 9 that it's a sin to observe the Passover on the wrong day, unless they touched a dead body or were away on a long journey. That's why the have the second Passover 4 weeks latter. AD30 is the only year, in the middle of a "week" of years, that can work.  But not to offend, Godzilla brothers. Here's AD 27:  www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=27&month=4&country=34 |
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Post by davewatchman on Apr 15, 2018 16:44:44 GMT -6
Why doesn't someone just post the signs we know 100% have to happen for his coming. 1-10 or how many it is. List each one with the Book, Chapter, Verses attached. Do not list possible prophecies with it. Only list verses that state the Day of the Lord, or the coming of the son of man etc...Then work from there. That doesn't sound like fun. Does that mean this ones no good: “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars , and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves , people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. - Luke 21:25 How much time do you think this verse entails? How much time from the signs in the sun and in the moon and in the stars,,, Until on the earth "distress of nations" "in perplexity" "because of the roaring of the sea and the waves", "people fainting with fear" and with "foreboding of what is coming on the world". I ask this because i think these signs have all just been given, the sun and moon and star signs. I think we are right now waiting at the comma, just before: "on the earth "distress of nations" I think the whole verse spans three years. Signs in the sun and moon was 2015. Signs in the stars was in 2017. I think were going weekend to weekend now. To me the "distress of nations", "in perplexity", "because of the roaring of the sea and the waves", is indicative of the trumpets. A third of the trees and all the green grass, that will be the cause of "distress of nations". And "something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea", would surely cause perplexity "because of the roaring of the sea and the waves". It never mentions a tsunami, but if an asteroid hits an ocean, there's probably going to be a big one. And then in Luke, just a couple verses latter, "And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. So when these trumpets begin to fall, i bet we're just days away from the second coming. 6 months, or 5 months i don't know. But it can't be drawn out over seven years. We would be extinct. There would be no flesh saved alive. But i think we're closer than anyone thinks. |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 15, 2018 20:31:59 GMT -6
Dave you are beautiful. The calendar shows Nisan 14, 27 AD on a Wednesday and that is the full moon. According to my calculations that is the day Lord Jesus drove out the money changers and Passover began at sundown. Additionally, you said "That's why there were two Passovers on passion week. Jesus ate the true Passover on Thursday, the Jews were rushing for their erroneous Passover which was a day late." I was not aware that there were two Passovers. Are you counting the last supper as a Passover meal? Where did this verse come from "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer?"You said: "That's why they have the second Passover 4 weeks latter." What is this Passover?" Are you referencing Shavuot?
Also, you said: "AD 30 is the only year, in the middle of a "week" of years, that can work." Can you explain this for me again?
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Post by witness1 on Apr 15, 2018 22:35:14 GMT -6
Thank you D4L. What you have stated is one possibility. However, if we consider that there might be four counts as I referenced above, then the fourth count is by weeks. Thus, there is a count of 70 weeks. It means that the 3.5 years has no application to the Savior's ministry but to the tribulation period from 67 to 70 AD. Thus, all seven years of tribulation are accounted for; because, 3.5 years would come from 67-70 AD and 3.5 years would come from 2018-2021 AD. Consequently, all 70 sevens are accounted for: 7 sevens, 62 sevens, and 1 seven (3.5 + 3.5). Because of that, the count of 70 sevens identifies 27 AD as the start of the Saviors ministry and then the prophecy applies secondarily as a 70 week count. It is believed that the Savior's ministry is 3.5 years; however, an acceptable year to the Lord might in fact be one year as follows: "Isa. 61:1-2, "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted*, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD...."
Luke 4:17-19, 17 "And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
Thus, I am convinced that the acceptable year started Passover 27 AD and ended at Passover 28 AD. The remainder of the 70 weeks is counted both before and after the acceptable year. boraddict, I think it might be good to move this to another thread, so we don't rerail the original one blur started. Maybe a moderator can move the posts that don't apply? I would be very happy to reply, - engage in discussion more there. Aside from the fact that the notion that the first half of the tribulation already happened is not remotely supported by scripture, the notion has more problems than solutions. At the time of Christ they still had the 2nd temple, - 3rd temple was not even destroyed, and there was no rapture, and the Godzilla brothers never appeared. - two witnesses, and many many prophecies had not been fulfilled. Israel was not even a state/nation, and on and and on. Every person certainly has the right to their own opinion, but there are 3 Passovers accounted for during Christ's ministry, - and we also know that Christ was about 30 when he began his ministry. One year ministry doesn't fit secular history nor scripture. Nor is there any evidence from scripture that the 7 year started before Christ started his ministry, nor after.
Hi friend. I haven’t commented in awhile because I was having trouble following borradict’s take on things and was letting it play out. But since I am the one who put forth the hypothesis that the first half of the 70th week may have been fulfilled in Jesus, I feel the need to clarify some things now. It seems like her theory (which I don’t at all understand) and mine are being confused with each other. I agree that there are at least 3 Passover’s, and some say there were 4. I am currently studying this. I also don’t think there is any reason to look for 70 literal weeks or 70 literal years in the Daniel prophecy. The prophecy is clearly about weeks of years, and trying to force secondary and tertiary meanings is dangerous. But I want to comment on thIs section of your comment: “Aside from the fact that the notion that the first half of the tribulation already happened is not remotely supported by scripture, the notion has more problems than solutions. At the time of Christ they still had the 2nd temple, - 3rd temple was not even destroyed, and there was no rapture, and the Godzilla brothers never appeared. - two witnesses, and many many prophecies had not been fulfilled. Israel was not even a state/nation, and on and and on.” I’m not sure whether you are referring to my 69.5 week theory and have misunderstood what I’m saying or whether the misunderstanding lies with something in borradict’s comments. But I feel the need to set the record straight that I am absolutely not saying that the tribulation is halfway over. That would be preposterous, for all the reasons you have mentioned. What I AM saying is that the notion that the tribulation is 7 years is not remotely supported by scripture. Revelation repeatedly says 3.5 years. Daniel says 1335 days total, indicating an extra 75 days past the ministry of the witnesses. I only see 3.5 (and a little more) years of time described in Revelation. The second woe has passed when the witnesses ascend. A seven year tribulation would mean there is three and a half years for the third woe, which is the bowl judgments and seem to happen rapidly. Almost all of the events in the book of Revelation take place during the time of the 2 witnesses, which is a clearly marked length of 1260 days. None of this has happened yet. ALL SEVEN seals are still sealed until we arrive in heaven to witness their opening. What HAS happened though is 69 weeks until Messiah came in 27/28AD and then 3.5 weeks until He was cut off. Saying half of the 70th week is over is not the same as saying half of the tribulation is over. I hope this makes sense. Please let me know if I can clarify further. My position is controversial enough without it being misunderstood 😊 |
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 16, 2018 3:56:50 GMT -6
boraddict , I think it might be good to move this to another thread, so we don't rerail the original one blur started. Maybe a moderator can move the posts that don't apply? I would be very happy to reply, - engage in discussion more there. Aside from the fact that the notion that the first half of the tribulation already happened is not remotely supported by scripture, the notion has more problems than solutions. At the time of Christ they still had the 2nd temple, - 3rd temple was not even destroyed, and there was no rapture, and the Godzilla brothers never appeared. - two witnesses, and many many prophecies had not been fulfilled. Israel was not even a state/nation, and on and and on. Every person certainly has the right to their own opinion, but there are 3 Passovers accounted for during Christ's ministry, - and we also know that Christ was about 30 when he began his ministry. One year ministry doesn't fit secular history nor scripture. Nor is there any evidence from scripture that the 7 year started before Christ started his ministry, nor after.
Hi friend. I haven’t commented in awhile because I was having trouble following borradict’s take on things and was letting it play out. But since I am the one who put forth the hypothesis that the first half of the 70th week may have been fulfilled in Jesus, I feel the need to clarify some things now. It seems like her theory (which I don’t at all understand) and mine are being confused with each other. I agree that there are at least 3 Passover’s, and some say there were 4. I am currently studying this. I also don’t think there is any reason to look for 70 literal weeks or 70 literal years in the Daniel prophecy. The prophecy is clearly about weeks of years, and trying to force secondary and tertiary meanings is dangerous. But I want to comment on thIs section of your comment: “Aside from the fact that the notion that the first half of the tribulation already happened is not remotely supported by scripture, the notion has more problems than solutions. At the time of Christ they still had the 2nd temple, - 3rd temple was not even destroyed, and there was no rapture, and the Godzilla brothers never appeared. - two witnesses, and many many prophecies had not been fulfilled. Israel was not even a state/nation, and on and and on.” I’m not sure whether you are referring to my 69.5 week theory and have misunderstood what I’m saying or whether the misunderstanding lies with something in borradict’s comments. But I feel the need to set the record straight that I am absolutely not saying that the tribulation is halfway over. That would be preposterous, for all the reasons you have mentioned. What I AM saying is that the notion that the tribulation is 7 years is not remotely supported by scripture. Revelation repeatedly says 3.5 years. Daniel says 1335 days total, indicating an extra 75 days past the ministry of the witnesses. I only see 3.5 (and a little more) years of time described in Revelation. The second woe has passed when the witnesses ascend. A seven year tribulation would mean there is three and a half years for the third woe, which is the bowl judgments and seem to happen rapidly. Almost all of the events in the book of Revelation take place during the time of the 2 witnesses, which is a clearly marked length of 1260 days. None of this has happened yet. ALL SEVEN seals are still sealed until we arrive in heaven to witness their opening. What HAS happened though is 69 weeks until Messiah came in 27/28AD and then 3.5 weeks until He was cut off. Saying half of the 70th week is over is not the same as saying half of the tribulation is over. I hope this makes sense. Please let me know if I can clarify further. My position is controversial enough without it being misunderstood 😊 Thanks witness1,
I really appreciate the clarification, and I can't speak for anyone else, but often people have some overlap, or similar views, and we can/ tend to lump others in the same pot, or rather "pigeonhole people" , - "All Pre-tribulation people think this, or the classic example is falsely conflating Arminians with Pelagianism, etc. or that all/ most Calvinists believe replacement theology. It's also not in any way meant as a criticism of boraddict - or anyone's views. ;-) It's sort of like Calculus - I just can't connect the dots - /can't understand it. Sometimes a big factor is people don't explain it well, but it doesn't automatically mean that it's incorrect or wrong - simply because I don't understand it.
I also certainly believe that there is strong evidence for/ clear reasons to support the notion of 3 1/2 year tribulation, but where I would respectfully disagree, is that there is scriptural evidence for the other/ traditional view as well.
I know that just because 5 million people think the earth is flat doesn't make it so, or 50 million people believe in the Catholic/Friday crucifixion doesn't make it so, but there are many watchmen on here, who could provide/ explain the reasons using scripture and or Hebrew culture - supporting evidence to explain the 7 year tribulation idea. **I really hope you start another thread - really, witness1. ;-)
One example is that I'm a firm believer in the Pre-tribulation rapture, but the moment we see Facebook and Twitter and Instagram explode with the Godzilla brothers - two fire-breathing witnesses who can't be killed, and/or a Ginormous #15 earthquake that swallows up the Dome of the Rock, or we see Damascus become uninhabitable, - then we all collectively hit reset - and collectively realize "OK, so the mid-tribulation people were right." Heheheh.
For this reason, -since I think scripture clearly teaches a Pre-tribulation rapture, I think whether the tribulation is 3 1/2 years or 7 or 11 1/2 won't really matter for Christians.
I can't wait for the new thread - witness1 !! I'll give you a few days, and if you don't start it, I'll copy and paste your idea and make a thread for you. ;-) I'll bring the spinach-dip and hummus. ;-)
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Post by venge on Apr 16, 2018 4:00:00 GMT -6
I have 2 issues witness,
1: The 2 witnesses in my understanding do not form even 50 percent of revelations content. I can explain later.
2: Evidence is lacking on believers watching the seals open. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. We don’t know the elders are human. It’s assumed. We don’t see anyone else like believers there by John. It is assumed. We cannot explain why there are 24 factually, only speculative. It is assumptions. More study must happen.
If it is possible to be given white robes like the martyred of the 5th seal, they still need to be changed as do those martyrs. Hence, it’s possible their soul is there without the change. Therefore no rapture. Christ needs to come in the clouds. That is not shown. Every eye needs to see him. The blessed hope and glorious appearing. His appearing. According to Matthew 24, that happens after the tribulation.
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Post by witness1 on Apr 16, 2018 5:09:36 GMT -6
disciple4life, what do you think the topic of the new thread should be? I have so many ideas but am not sure what the main topic should be since we’ve already discussed this in the timelines overview thread. I agree we should move this, but what do you think is the most important thing to discuss first? As far as 3.5 or 7 years... I do think it’s matters for us. For one reason, this means that the abomination could happen before the rapture (I think just a few days prior, which would be the waterbreaking event you’re looking for). This means that our brothers and sisters in Judea would need to flee, which is a pretty big deal. We wouldn’t be worth anything as watchmen if we didn’t warn our own brothers and sisters. Also, how confused and despairing would we be if we all of a sudden see something we expect to happen in the middle of the tribulation? Secondarily, I feel hugely motivated to figure things out for those who are left behind (this has been my primary motivation). My best friend is firmly intent on going through the tribulation, and I realized in the fall when I composed my letter to her that I had *no idea* what was going to happen. Besides sharing the Gospel, all I could say was, “don’t take the mark of the beast (what’s that?) or worship the antichrist (who’s he?). Oh and there will be some false prophet guy too... don’t believe his miracles. Listen to the 2 witnesses.” Really? After walking with Christ this long, I couldn’t explain more? I’m hoping my loved ones can survive for 7 years and I don’t even have anything to leave them to help them understand what’s going on? Yes, they will have my Bible to read Revelation, but I’ve read that for years and still don’t understand it. So I prayed the Lord would give me understanding in order that my neighbors may come to know Him in the tribulation and not fall into deception. I’m not watching just for myself, throwing out things that don’t matter to me like 3.5 or 7 years, because it matters big time to them. *If* I am understanding things correctly, I think it is because the Lord blessed my plea for understanding. I’m not just counting down the days to the rapture... I am trying to take my place in His story by engaging in this last great battle against evil, spiritually discerning things that are spiritual so unbelievers may know the Lord. Why did God give us this Great Sign if not to say, “This is happening. Figure it out.”?
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Post by witness1 on Apr 16, 2018 5:19:22 GMT -6
venge, who can be redeemed and rule as priests besides humans? I welcome your thoughts and ideas contrary to previously held beliefs, but you’re not going to change my mind on a pre-trib rapture. It seems like no one is going to change your mind either, so maybe we just need to leave the timing of the rapture out of the discussion. I don’t have time to try to convince you, and I personally would like you to explain more about how you see the mark of the beast and the beast kingdom instead of arguing about something we will never agree on.
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 16, 2018 6:15:40 GMT -6
disciple4life , what do you think the topic of the new thread should be? I have so many ideas but am not sure what the main topic should be since we’ve already discussed this in the timelines overview thread. I agree we should move this, but what do you think is the most important thing to discuss first? As far as 3.5 or 7 years... I do think it’s matters for us. For one reason, this means that the abomination could happen before the rapture (I think just a few days prior, which would be the waterbreaking event you’re looking for). This means that our brothers and sisters in Judea would need to flee, which is a pretty big deal. We wouldn’t be worth anything as watchmen if we didn’t warn our own brothers and sisters. Also, how confused and despairing would we be if we all of a sudden see something we expect to happen in the middle of the tribulation? Secondarily, I feel hugely motivated to figure things out for those who are left behind (this has been my primary motivation). My best friend is firmly intent on going through the tribulation, and I realized in the fall when I composed my letter to her that I had *no idea* what was going to happen. Besides sharing the Gospel, all I could say was, “don’t take the mark of the beast (what’s that?) or worship the antichrist (who’s he?). Oh and there will be some false prophet guy too... don’t believe his miracles. Listen to the 2 witnesses.” Really? After walking with Christ this long, I couldn’t explain more? I’m hoping my loved ones can survive for 7 years and I don’t even have anything to leave them to help them understand what’s going on? Yes, they will have my Bible to read Revelation, but I’ve read that for years and still don’t understand it. So I prayed the Lord would give me understanding in order that my neighbors may come to know Him in the tribulation and not fall into deception. I’m not watching just for myself, throwing out things that don’t matter to me like 3.5 or 7 years, because it matters big time to them. *If* I am understanding things correctly, I think it is because the Lord blessed my plea for understanding. I’m not just counting down the days to the rapture... I am trying to take my place in His story by engaging in this last great battle against evil, spiritually discerning things that are spiritual so unbelievers may know the Lord. Why did God give us this Great Sign if not to say, “This is happening. Figure it out.”?
As for my two cents - I would recommend something quite specific. 3 1/2 year Tribulation or Evidence for 3 1/2 year Tribulation. but it's up to you. I also think it's fine to know those places where we are convinced - [not open to new/ other ideas or considering new information]. Not everyone will agree - and that's OK. For me, I'm open to new ideas and information about Christ's death, but no one can fill in the holes and answer the nagging questions. I'm not at all, open, to the notion that the tribulation has already started, or that that God would use occult practices/ which was forbidden with penalty of stoning, - use pyramid angles for the rapture.
Imho - I do think it would be worth noting at the beginning, to distinguish between passages that refer to Rapture vs passages that refer to Second Coming For example *** Day of the Lord passages referring to judgement/ vs Day of Christ passages - different audience, different outcomes, totally different descriptions. Many people conflate the two, and even on this forum - many refer to the over-arching Return of Christ, and in that they include Rapture, Tribulation, Abomination of Desolation, Rise of Anti-Christ and Second Coming. All the events that are part of the Second Advent. ;-)
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