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Post by fitz on Jan 29, 2019 9:59:24 GMT -6
fitz, can you redo your post? Why BSG? Is it confusing with all the Strong's reference numbers? |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 29, 2019 10:23:35 GMT -6
yes, this confuses me because I didn't understand why each reference for each word of that verse. But now I get it.
I think though I may understand now the verse that makes it seem like saints are angels, and this has to do with the part where the 'rapture' requires no angels, but that the 2nd return requires angels to help gather..this is according to the person who made the chart. See Line 11 of the chart..
and in the 2nd coming side there is the army of saints that come with Christ for the battle, so I am wondering if this is where saints/angels are getting jumbled ?
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Post by fitz on Jan 29, 2019 10:32:56 GMT -6
yes, this confuses me because I didn't understand why each reference for each word of that verse. But now I get it. I think though I may understand now the verse that makes it seem like saints are angels, and this has to do with the part where the 'rapture' requires no angels, but that the 2nd return requires angels to help gather..this is according to the person who made the chart. See Line 11 of the chart.. and in the 2nd coming side there is the army of saints that come with Christ for the battle, so I am wondering if this is where saints/angels are getting jumbled ? Perhaps. I was trying to post a verse that backed you up on the "saints are people", and they are, which it sounds like Holy is having problems convincing the wife of. BTW, I see all kinds of You Tube prophets saying angels collect us at the rapture, but I have never seen it that way. I think Jesus descends on a cloud, and we hear"come up hither!", and we shoot into the sky by the power of Jesus in glorified bodies. No angels needed. My .02. Conversely, the angels are needed to gather the survivors of the tribulation at the second coming because they are still flesh and blood mortals. |
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Post by mike on Jan 29, 2019 11:53:22 GMT -6
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Not speaking of angels here
2 Corinthians 5:4
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
No angels here either
1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is not for the angels
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
No angels mentioned here either - the 'we' is us and those who have passed before us, not angels.
Without interjecting my own ideas here isnt it very easy to see that when we see Him we will be changed into something imperishable, like He is now? Caught up into the clouds, and clothed with immortality?
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Post by stormyknight on Jan 29, 2019 21:00:06 GMT -6
Yes! We shall be like Him!
"and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man, dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest. The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters. He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest. ." Rev. 1:13-16
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Post by boraddict on Jan 30, 2019 9:33:44 GMT -6
Yes! We shall be like Him! "and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man, dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest. The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters. He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest. ." Rev. 1:13-16Stormy, I had not noticed this before. I have always contended that there are three players in the BoR: The Savior, the angel, and John. Additionally, there are six other angels whom participate in latter days events as well as the 144,000, the body of the church, and others. Yet, there are only three players involved in making the book. These three are identified in the first verse as: The revelation of Jesus Christ which God (The Father) gave to him, to show unto his servants (the angel and John), the things which must shortly come to pass, AND, He (Jesus Christ) sent and signified it (the revelation) by his angel unto his (Jesus Christ's) servant John. Thus, God the Father gave the revelation to Lord Jesus who in turn used his angel to to give the revelation to John. This interaction between the Savior, the angel, and John continues throughout the book. One of these interactions begins at Verses 1:10-11 where we have the Savior as of a trumpet saying I am Alpha and Omega. Then at Verse 1:12 John turns to see the Savior and he sees the seven candle sticks that in Verse 1:20 are the seven churches. Then at Verse 1:13 John sees "one like unto the Son of Man" to whom John falls at his feet. We are told twice at Verses 19:10 and 22:8 that John fell at the angels feet. Thus at Verse 1:17 it is the angel's feet to which John falls. An angel that is "like unto" (v. 1:13) the Savior. Thus, John sees two individuals, the Savior and the angel in Verses 1:13-15. Yet, we know that it is the Savior who places his hand upon John in Verse 1:17 because only the Savior is the first and the last. Therefore, at Verse 1:17 all three individuals are there. John who falls at the feet of the angel and the Savior who places his hand upon John. Therefore, the description of the Savior in Verses 1:13-15 also describes the angel. It must be the case that when John saw these two individuals he fell at the feet of the one closest to him; the angel "to worship him" (vv. 19:10, 22:8). To which the angel said "do it not" for "I am thy fellow servant." Thus, we have two servants to whom Lord Jesus is showing the revelation (v. 1:1). It follows that once upon the ground John did not get up to fall again at the Savior's feet. No, he remained "as dead," and then who places the hand upon John? Not the angel but the Savior. |
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Post by onesteelmagnolia on Jul 9, 2019 15:08:52 GMT -6
Hi New to the forum but not to Christ my King!! I would soooo appreciate if you all would watch this video CAREFULLY and Try to listen to it without your belief in a pre-trib rapture. It was hard for me to do because I have always believed in a pre-trib rapture!! Have a pen ready because the speaker does not allow you to back up and relishes without starting all over. I'm concerned about him possibly being right in saying we will have to endure the trib Again listen without opinion and then think about his analogy on what the shortening of the days for the elect means. renewingyourmind.org/2019/07/05/the-rapture-of-the-churchCan't wait to hear what you think. Hope he is WRONG!! |
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Post by Natalie on Jul 9, 2019 17:01:28 GMT -6
Welcome onesteelmagnolia ! Glad you joined us. I am not able to listen to him right now, but studying for myself, I believe the Bible teaches that there is a rapture of the Church, a period of time for purifying (disciplining/regathering) Israel and punishing the nations, and then a physical return of Jesus. I do know that there is tribulation for believers, but we won't be here for what has been called The Tribulation (I prefer other labels such as the Time of Jacob's Trouble because it is not for the church.) Now, there are people on this board with varying views of when the rapture takes place and how long the period is between the rapture and the Second Coming, and we are open to discussing all that. |
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Post by mike on Jul 9, 2019 18:05:35 GMT -6
Ok first, welcome to the forum, thanks for posting.
I listened to the opening and stopped. Why should we assume those currently blind to truth will simply realize the spiritual transformation of those around, dead rising, Jesus in the clouds, Angels, Trumpets, etc. All of it is in the spirit. Being changed and with the Lord forever does not specially mean we just vanish. We are changed.
EDIT - I have a changed view of the rapture after two years on this site. It's ok to discuss these things. There are many views, most believe theirs is correct, but only one can be. Maybe that one hasn't even manifested yet. People didn't realize they were looking at, talking to, eating with the risen Christ. Is it possible for anyone of us to be blinded by pre-conceived ideas as well?
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Post by fitz on Jul 9, 2019 19:43:32 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Jul 9, 2019 19:55:56 GMT -6
Thanks Fitz. I only listened to a few minutes so far. He started talking about Kathryn Kuhlman and Benny Hinn and I kinda shut down and stopped listening. I try to keep an open mind to things but those two are beyond my limits |
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Post by venge on Jul 10, 2019 17:57:27 GMT -6
Hi New to the forum but not to Christ my King!! I would soooo appreciate if you all would watch this video CAREFULLY and Try to listen to it without your belief in a pre-trib rapture. It was hard for me to do because I have always believed in a pre-trib rapture!! Have a pen ready because the speaker does not allow you to back up and relishes without starting all over. I'm concerned about him possibly being right in saying we will have to endure the trib Again listen without opinion and then think about his analogy on what the shortening of the days for the elect means. renewingyourmind.org/2019/07/05/the-rapture-of-the-churchCan't wait to hear what you think. Hope he is WRONG!! Welcome to the forums. I did not listen to the link. With that being said, I believe we will go through a time of trial. For me, it is not that believers must all be inflicted with persecutions. We have a body of Christ. Some that take the title "Christian", do not practice. They are title only. Some others practice by attending church, perhaps pray but do not grow. Others grow and grow and grow more and make it a focus of their life. Now there are other examples but Christ gave them perfectly when he addressed those seeds that drop on the stones, and the seeds that drop around thorns and thistles and seed dropped on good ground. It is these trials that the true church will be kept from because they have Christ. They put on the armor of God and are not tempted. Not a removal off planet earth but are not tempted because they are awake. As Christ explained in the garden of Gethsemane. They are still on earth when these things happen but being here doesn't mean they experience it. But the others that are Christian in title only, they will. And Christ speaks about staying firm in the face of persecutions and he says we will go thru them. Paul says tribulations, another word for persecutions, makes us stronger in the faith. Since Christ rose to heaven...how many apostles and Deacons and elders died from persecution? Scores! They all were saved by grace thru faith. They were all baptized! What makes them different from us that we would escape what they did not? Nothing. But we are told fear not man that can destroy the Body and not the soul. Fear God who can destroy both body and soul. There is no better friend then to lay down your life for your friend..that being Christ Jesus to die as a martyr. Have you not read Rev 14 which after the 144k are sealed, after Babylon falls, after the mark of the beast image and worship is setup that it is said: Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.Christians are called at that time of trial to remain faithful and endure all things for the master. But this is my interpretation. You need to read the scriptures and pray and let the holy spirit guide you. No writer, no theologian, no one here can help you with your question But the Holy Spirit that will guide you. Again, welcome to the forums. |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 10, 2019 19:35:11 GMT -6
DS, well said and I will go a little further than you have; that the dividing line is between the "Watchers" and the general Christian membership: active, non-active, etc.
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Post by mike on Jul 10, 2019 20:04:30 GMT -6
DS, well said and I will go a little further than you have; that the dividing line is between the "Watchers" and the general Christian membership: active, non-active, etc. Do you always refer to Venge as DS? |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 10, 2019 22:58:43 GMT -6
DS, well said and I will go a little further than you have; that the dividing line is between the "Watchers" and the general Christian membership: active, non-active, etc. Do you always refer to Venge as DS? Yes! Remember a few months ago that a drive by member gave venge the abbreviated name "DS." I thought that was so very cool. Venge you are so very cool and a great Dad! So I guess DS to me means someone that is a very cool and a great person. Thus, venge has the distinct honor of being DS: Diamond Sharp. |
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