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Post by Gary on Aug 7, 2018 12:49:07 GMT -6
I thought I had responded in this thread days ago, but apparently not, my bad, I apologize! (:
In any case, to make absolutely clear, the Holy Spirit is God. God is omnipresent. Thus, the Holy Spirit can't be removed from the earth. It's most often said that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer as compared to Michael, government, etc, but what we're really saying is the Holy Spirit-indwelt Church. That's the Restrainer. The Holy Spirit-indwelt Church, a.k.a. the male child, will be removed and then the dragon who will be cast down will give his power and authority to the beast. The man of lawlessness that 2 Thess. 2 refers to will be revealed only after the Restrainer is removed. He is currently restrained from 1. being revealed, and 2. rising to power.
Daniel and Revelation both clearly state that the saints and elect will be completely overcome by the antichrist. However, we learn elsewhere that the Church cannot be overcome. Thus, not only is the Church a different subset of the elect, but it is also the entity through which the Holy Spirit is currently restraining satan's global ambitions.
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Post by rt on Aug 7, 2018 18:01:28 GMT -6
First, it was not a defense but my opinion. It may be apples and oranges to you RT, but the way I see it, you view my opinion as me forcing scripture to make my view fit which is offensive to say the least but Imo, youre not looking at scripture the way I do. I had stated earlier why I thought it was Christ. Others stated their opinion. You are entitled to your own. We are here to search for truth, compare/debate. I hope that is what you want. I don’t follow pre Trib. Anyone who does not follow it should never be cast out nor should be felt they are wrong. You never know, you may be the one wrong. The truth is, there is what we choose to believe and what we don’t. But there is only 1 truth and this is why we read. I will reply to this tomorrow, after work, with scripture. My opinion is not changed but others have offered good reasons. I pray we look more to find out as it is difficult subject that many have written on and yet no answer. Still, I will reply tomorrow to your response on Daniel, prayer, the temple and sitting in the temple Dear Venge, I am so sorry that I came across as offensive to you. Please forgive me, that was not at all my intent. I am usually pretty good at re-reading my posts to make sure that I don't leave too much room to read between the lines. But it was late and I didn't do as thorough a job as I usually do. Sometimes my passion for a topic comes across as bullying when put in writing. Sorry about that, I will try to do a better job in future posts. I have stated elsewhere that we are all in this together, trying to make sense of the prophetic word, none of us has "arrived" at the precise interpretation. My point was that our view on when and if the rapture happens does influence how we interpret other bits of prophecy. You said yourself "you're not looking at scripture the way I do". The reason for this is because we build our interpretation on foundations of belief especially in regards to timing of events. I am not saying that I am right or wrong, or that you are either. You shared your opinion and yes you defended it with scripture, I shared my opinion about where I think you may be wrong and also my own opinion and defended it with scripture too. That is what debate is, isn't it? I didn't mean to offend and you are free to share where you feel I am wrong, I won't take offense if you do. Debating with one another is a great way to learn I think, as long as we keep an open mind and a good attitude toward one another. If nothing else I can learn more about why some folks hold various different views and it drives me back to God's word to recheck my own. Please know that I have great regard for folks like you who are willing to go to God's word, do the study for themselves and defend what they believe it says. The very fact that so many different views exist says that none of us can be dogmatic. As the old saying goes- "hindsight is 20/20". In future posts I will still point out where I think you ( or others) may be wrong and I will continue to do my best to defend my own views and opinions with scripture, but I will try to be more careful how I do so, so as not to offend. Please accept my humble apology, dear brother in Christ.
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Post by mike on Aug 8, 2018 5:42:07 GMT -6
Gary - This may not be specifically related to the "restrainer" topic of the post but as I was reading through the recent dialogue of RT & Venge I got to thinking about something you mentioned some time back. I was reminded of certain views that you had previously held and changed. I think it was (IIRC) annihilation, hell, eternal destination, etc. 1. Did your position or belief at the time frame how you read/interpreted scripture? 2. What made you reevaluate and alter the position? 3. How do you see interpretations of end times "doctrine" at this time given your (current) pre-trib rapture view? This may need to take a to a new a thread but it can be moved if need be
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Post by Gary on Aug 8, 2018 8:15:51 GMT -6
Whoa! Good questions and each could take a while to unpack (: Everyone comes at Scripture with certain preconceived notions and those notions are often tainted by the flesh. The only way to overcome those private interpretations is to 1. pray very diligently that what we believe and teach would be from the Holy Spirit and that we wouldn't lead others astray or be led astray ourselves, 2. strive very hard to read Scripture for its plain, literal meaning, only interjecting analogy when Scripture itself allows us to (e.g. a parable where the text itself interprets the symbols), and 3. trust God's clear promises (e.g. Jn. 14:1-3; Rev. 3:10). Because of my own preconceived notions, and now applying a stringent prima facie hermeneutic, I have had to change quite a few beliefs that I once held when I was young in the faith: I once believed that water baptism was essential for salvation --> I now believe salvation is by faith alone and essential baptism is that performed by the Spirit I once believed that Jesus died for my sins, but that I had to maintain my salvation through faithfulness --> I now believe in the completeness of atonement and in eternal security I once believed in a pre-wrath, and possibly, a post-trib rapture --> I now believe in dispensationalism and a full pre-trib rapture I once believed in eternal conscious torment of unbelievers --> I now believe in perfectly just conscious torment lasting as long as the crimes deserve, followed by eternal, irrevocable destruction (annihilation/conditionalism); pre-trib scholar Dr. David Reagan teaches this, as well; some of my reasons why I believe in conditionalism are here, but to summarize two key points: 1. when you take every verse in the Bible that speaks about the final punishment of the wicked, the vast majority indicate death, annihilation, ceasing to be, etc, and 2. English and Latin translations of the Greek words aion and aionios as "eternal" or "everlasting" are probably always or often mistaken Aside from sola fide, I don't hold any of these beliefs to be essential to salvation, and so I don't regard my understanding as unchangeable or perfect, but I want to be willing to follow the truth of Scripture wherever it leads. Taking the pre-trib view as an example, I used to be persuaded by the pre-wrath and post-trib camps about the numerous scriptures referring to a resurrection of the elect "on the last day" or the end of the Trib. But the more I studied Scripture, the more promises I found to the Church guaranteeing a heavenly escape—not from present day trials and tribulations—but from the final, end-of-the-age Tribulation coming on the whole world. In essence, what I see now is that the post-trib argument against a pre-trib rapture is just one big straw-man: 1. Scripture states there will be a resurrection of the saved at the end of the Trib (Mt. 24, Rev. 20, etc). 2. Therefore, the pre-trib view must be false. All of the arguments I've seen basically boil down to those two points. But it's just a straw-man, and a weak one at that, because pre-tribbers *also* believe in a resurrection of the righteous at the end of the Trib. In fact, I don't know any pre-trib scholar who argues otherwise. But in order to account for *all* Scripture, including the very many promises to the Church, there must necessarily be first, a resurrection and rapture of the Church, and second, a resurrection of the 5th Seal Martyrs and gathering of the living elect at the end of the Trib. No amount of clever tricks can avoid Isaiah 26:19–21, Zephaniah 1:14–2:3, John 14:1-6, 1 Thessalonians 5:4, Revelation 3:10, and dozens of other verses/passages. Regarding the order of events in the Trib (Seals, trumpets, bowls), timing of the rapture, timing of the AOD, and identity of Mystery Babylon, this is my most diligent and prayerful conclusion as I've strived to apply a literal hermeneutic: here. Blessings.
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 8, 2018 10:38:38 GMT -6
Hmm. I had never put much thought into conditionalism.
Interesting topic. I'll have to research it more.
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Post by venge on Aug 8, 2018 12:37:09 GMT -6
I see this defense as a mixing of apples and oranges. First of all you talk about Daniel. Daniel was a Jew, a captive in the land of Babylon. He was not "in Christ", he was bound to the law of Moses. Nevertheless, though prayer was banned, Daniel and his friends were not removed, they survived the fires of the furnace, also Daniel survived the lion's den and went on to influence the babylonians for good and for God's glory. This does not demonstrate the point you were trying to make. Also the "daily sacrifice" that is taken away in Daniel 11:31, is not prayer nor is it the body of Christ. The Daily sacrifice is an actual animal sacrifice (Exod 29:38-42; Num. 28:3, 6, 2 Chron. 2:4, etc.), not "prayer" As for the abomination of desolation The "Holy Place" is not us, it is the physical building- the (rebuilt) Temple in Jerusalem. If you don't think this will happen, just check out the Temple Institute's website and you will see that not only is there a will to see it happen, but they are actually in the planning stages for it, having recreated the temple implements, identifying the priesthood through genetic testing and have begun training the priests in the temple duties, they have revived the Sanhedrin and have blueprints for the chamber of hewn stone and I am sure that there are plans already drawn up for a new temple. Consider what Paul says to the Thessalonians The "lawless" one seats himself in the temple of God, displaying himself as God. This IS the abomination of desolation. If you consider the "temple of God" to be us as believers, how then can the lawless one seat himself in us? That is virtually impossible both physically and spiritually. I understand that what one believes regarding the rapture timing and whether or not you believe the church will go through the 70th week, changes the lens through which you interpret prophecy. It sounds to me like you do not ascribe to a pre trib view. The foundation of your interpretation is based on your view of when the rapture happens, so you interpret things to suit that view. yes I also interpret through the pre trib rapture lens. Let the reader decide which view has more scriptural merit. Yes this is true of Christ, He is our strength and our fortress. But no man can pollute our sanctuary in Christ. No man can remove worship of Him from us or take Him from our lives. He lives in us, He abides in us and we in Him. Man can try to prohibit us from praying, man can shut down our places of worship. But our faith is not dependent on a building, and who can keep us from prayer? It didn't work for Daniel and God delivered him. In fact this was the result: Ok I just spent 40 min writing up this for the entire thing to erase. I don't like this site. Gonna try to write it in word and copy it. RT said, Daniel was a Jew, a captive in the land of Babylon. He was not "in Christ", he was bound to the law of Moses.
Daniel was “in Christ”. He may not have been washed by the blood of the lamb because he was under the mosaic law, but he was in Christ. Moses and the Prophets had Christ in them. Perhaps not as we do today. They didn't have the new wine, but they had Christ as shown above. Rt said, Also the "daily sacrifice" that is taken away in Daniel 11:31, is not prayer nor is it the body of Christ. The Daily sacrifice is an actual animal sacrifice (Exod 29:38-42; Num. 28:3, 6, 2 Chron. 2:4, etc.), not "prayer"
The daily was meant to be worship and oblation. Making requests to God and offering a sacrifice for ones sins. Daniel did not offer up an animal sacrifice but it was said he did what he was taught to do as a child. Daniel praying is what got Daniel to be thrown into the Lion's den. The decree was set forth to stop prayer and oblation to any other God, that was the daily. Let us start the story below. Daniel shows he gets on his knees and lifts his hands to heaven to offer prayer and oblation. We know that the daily was at least in the morning and evening. We can look to Psalm 141:2 for what our daily and Daniel's daily is. Our prayers go up like smeet smelling incense and our lifting of hands like the evening sacrifice. Ok, but that's not enough right...there's gotta be more. So lifting up our hands and praise through our lips giving thanks to God is a sacrifice. Lets continue: Our bodies are a living sacrifice. We are the sheep. We are to present ourselves spotless, as possible, and sacrifice ourselves and our flesh to God. How do we do this? We circumcise our hearts and make them not hardened. We cut our flesh, not our human flesh but the flesh of sin. Cut it out of you and make yourself a Holy people. Sacrificing your fleshly lusts, your heart and asking for forgiveness, praising his name, presenting your requests to God showing love and admiration for the creator. That is the daily. When you look at it, let us look back at the Daniel verse of the future. The AC will come and he will abolish prayer and worship of our God. There will be a falling away of the faith. RT said, As for the abomination of desolation
Matthew 24:15–16 15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
The "Holy Place" is not us, it is the physical building- the (rebuilt) Temple in Jerusalem. If you don't think this will happen, just check out the Temple Institute's website and you will see that not only is there a will to see it happen, but they are actually in the planning stages for it, having recreated the temple implements, identifying the priesthood through genetic testing and have begun training the priests in the temple duties, they have revived the Sanhedrin and have blueprints for the chamber of hewn stone and I am sure that there are plans already drawn up for a new temple.
Consider what Paul says to the Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians 2:4 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
The "lawless" one seats himself in the temple of God, displaying himself as God. This IS the abomination of desolation. If you consider the "temple of God" to be us as believers, how then can the lawless one seat himself in us? That is virtually impossible both physically and spiritually. The sitting in the temple is not literal sitting. The text states: Let us look at it again. Because he opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called God, doing that, he sets himself up like he thinks he is God in his heart. Let us look at Ezekiel 28:2-5 where the Lord speaks to the king of Tyre. Did the king of Tyre literally sit in God's temple? Did he use his voice to proclaim he is God? Or did his actions, his pride, his arrogance and his wealth cause himself to puff up like he is God. We are the temple of the holy ghost. We are the sanctuary built without hands. God dwells within us therefore there is no need of a temple. We are to be clean, a spotless sheep good for sacrifice to him. Iniquity in our life is like an unclean bristled sheep. Unsuitable for sacrifice. The Antichrist will puff up his heart with pride and riches and in doing so proclaims he is God. Not with his mouth but with his actions. He will not sit down in a chair on the mercy seat of the ark, which is LONG gone, to be called God. He will do it in his heart. There was a statement against me that suggested that I said Christ departs from us. Perhaps I was not clear. I don't believe Christ ever leaves us, what I was trying to say was someone removing prayer and worship would be removing Christ from us. Not in our hearts or minds but removing Christ from us (the rest of the world) that needs him. Prayer is our relationship with him, its the open line to his throne room. Could you imagine that being outlawed? Why will people abandon the faith? If they were in the faith, they believed and were sealed w/the Holy Spirit. But they give it up. Christ didn't give up on them, they gave up on Christ, but an AntiChrist kingdom will teach a doctrine to pull people away from Christ; and that is removing Christ from the world. That is his goal. Christ is never really gone, but preventing Christian things such as prayer, worship, communion.....that is possible since 2 of the 3 were done in Daniel's day. Daniel still had Christ in him, and he was ready to lay down his life for his faith. How many are prepared to do that in the times to come? He who letteth lets, until he is taken out of the way. Well, who is taken out of the way if worship and prayer are banned by death?In regards to the holy place in "us". Christ is the chief cornerstone, we are the pebbles built upon a holy foundation of a temple. We are the new temple. 1 Peter 2:5-7 I did not get a chance to address everything yet, but I am sure you heard this song so I will write it instead of linking it. A song from church, listen to the words: "Lord prepare me, to be a sanctuary, pure and holy, tried and true... with thanksgiving, I'll be your living, sanctuary for you." We are the living temple of God. He resides in us. We are to sacrifice our flesh for HIM and give prayer and oblation lifting up our hands and loving our God to which is our daily; before someone tries to take it away. Perhaps not the cleanest reply, but I had a nice write up and it got messed up and erased. Things I haven't touched on yet I will try later in the week. I will still talk about the locusts of Revelation for part of my reply and whatever else comes up.
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Post by fitz on Aug 8, 2018 15:43:30 GMT -6
You gotta keep 'em separated.
Christians are the temple, but the Jews haven't accepted their Messiah...yet. The AOD is for the Jewish people, not the Church.
The Jews will rebuilt a third temple. When the AOD occurs, the Church will have been in heaven for 3 1/2 years.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 8, 2018 16:14:54 GMT -6
fitz just curious of a few things. Did not most of the Apostles accept Jesus? some sooner than later, and even Judas although he betrayed Jesus, we do not know what his heart really felt, but he must have felt convincted enough of what he did to hang himself...shame took over him. James wasn't convinced right away, nor Thomas, however, they came to faith and believed and they were jews..what about Paul? and what about those whose faith was counted as righteous in the lists of Hebrews 11 prior to CHrsit on the Corss? The author of Hebrews seemed to demonstrate that Faith even meant something back then, and we are given details of the obedience (not works) of these peoples. What about in the book of Acts where it says 1000's came to believe. And they were talking about jews there, not gentiles. I can give you the scriptures but I have always wondered that the "blindness" wasn't complete blindness to ALL jews in the day, and what about Jonathan Cahn? and any number of 'messianic jews" of our day today? This is a sincere question on my part. edit: Ok, I have no problem accepting that there could and can be a 3rd temple being built. Afterall, we have many a literal situation in the scriptures that plays out the spiritual battle behind the scenes. So... for the record, I can not dispute that the literal, physical event can, will or could happen. But what about the irony of the whole temple thing? Is there not a spiritual lesson behind this physical temple desire by man to create something for himself that he thinks appeases God? When we have these literal physical things spoken in the Word, is there not the chance that there is a double meaning/lesson being spoken? It is the inspired Word of God afterall... Many talk of Ruth and her story and then equate it to the Christian...Many use Job to explain the trials and tribulations of their own personal life. Why do we quit doing that when it comes to the end times stuff? Why do we, rather the Christ follower, drop the spiritual lesson the Word is trying to speak towards by only considering the literal physical?
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Post by venge on Aug 8, 2018 16:26:23 GMT -6
You gotta keep 'em separated. Christians are the temple, but the Jews haven't accepted their Messiah...yet. The AOD is for the Jewish people, not the Church. The Jews will rebuilt a third temple. When the AOD occurs, the Church will have been in heaven for 3 1/2 years. As Barbio had stated, and as I showed scripture....there are Jews who are Christians. The law was the schoolteacher but the temple always resides in the hearts of the faithful. When the AoD occurs, the pre Trib believe they will be gone. The church doesn’t all hold to that doctrine. Matt 24 says in vs 8, these are birth pangs. Following Christ says Than You will be handed over to be persecuted. That is the church. And put to death....also the church. Christ was talking to believers. He then assured us because he says the one who stands firm to the end will be saved! We are for persecution as it refined us. Persecution is man sin, not God’s wrath. Wish I had scripture to put down right now but I’m sitting in the Chick-fil-A eating with my daughter
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Post by fitz on Aug 8, 2018 17:41:49 GMT -6
It's not the Messianic Jews I refer to...they are Christians. It's unbelieving Israel.
Personally, I am the righteousness of God in Christ. Jesus finished my refinement for me on the cross and He imparted it to me by my faith in Him, and nothing more. Nothing I could go through on this earth can refine my flesh enough to satisfy a perfect and holy God. Nothing we can add to that finished work. Any further refinement while I still wear this filthy flesh would serve no purpose and you can't be more refined than the righteousness of God in Christ.
Any theology other than this seeks to steal the glory that belongs to Jesus alone. It's all about Him, not about us.
No need for the Church to go through any part of the tribulation. Jesus paid for my refinement in full. I am already positionally seated with Christ in heaven. Soon I will be physically seated with Him, but without this flesh suit.
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Post by venge on Aug 8, 2018 18:00:51 GMT -6
Please explain when Christ said, the one who stands firm till the end will be saved. As that salvation from him comes before the end as he says, yet the birth pangs come prior. If they come prior, the church can go through them.
If the church doesn’t go through them, and we are raptured before the end, why say we will be persecuted and put to death?
Fritz, I’m glad you are positive and convicted. But I’m not questioning your salvation. I’m saying there’s plenty verses that say tribulation in the form of persecution is good. Paul was saved and he went through it. Why r you special over him that u shouldn’t endure it?
How many Christians endured severe persecution? The church has gone through it and will go through it.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 8, 2018 19:41:38 GMT -6
But does it mean all of the church? What about those that died in the past without being persecuted?
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Post by Natalie on Aug 8, 2018 20:00:07 GMT -6
venge says: The daily was meant to be worship and oblation. Making requests to God and offering a sacrifice for ones sins. Daniel did not offer up an animal sacrifice but it was said he did what he was taught to do as a child. Daniel praying is what got Daniel to be thrown into the Lion's den. The decree was set forth to stop prayer and oblation to any other God, that was the daily.
and you use Psalm 141:2 which says what the daily is "evening sacrifice" There were sacrifices made daily. (Lev 6:9 for example) These will be what are stopped. No man can make people stop praying. I can drive around my town praying. I can walk around the grocery store or mall praying. No one is going to be able to take that away.
Also, the anti-Christ is not a believer. Therefore, he is not a temple for the Holy Spirit. The Scripture says, "he sets himself up in God's temple." So, he would have to set himself up in a believers heart, and that's not possible. The literal understanding is what makes sense. There has to be another Temple in Jerusalem....with daily sacrifices.
ETA: I logged off to go do something else when fitz's comment "You gotta keep'm separated" clicked. Venge, you believe that Christians have to go through the Tribulation Period; therefore, you are trying to find a "daily sacrifice" that Christians do that will be taken away. But it's called the time of Jacob's Trouble because it is for the Jewish nation. We have to look at what the nation will be doing as a "daily sacrifice." What daily thing did the nation do? (see Leviticus) You see it as a spiritual temple of God because you think Christians will be there, but it's going to be a physical temple that the nation builds and then start their daily burnt sacrifices.
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Aug 8, 2018 20:43:25 GMT -6
You gotta keep 'em separated. Christians are the temple, but the Jews haven't accepted their Messiah...yet. The AOD is for the Jewish people, not the Church. The Jews will rebuilt a third temple. When the AOD occurs, the Church will have been in heaven for 3 1/2 years. Where is Revelation written only for the Jews? I thought it was a revealing of the mysteries of God for the believers? Hence the 7 letters to the churches. That’s definitely not the Jews. Beside that, there is neither new nor Greek, etc.
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Post by fitz on Aug 9, 2018 3:54:46 GMT -6
You gotta keep 'em separated. Christians are the temple, but the Jews haven't accepted their Messiah...yet. The AOD is for the Jewish people, not the Church. The Jews will rebuilt a third temple. When the AOD occurs, the Church will have been in heaven for 3 1/2 years. Where is Revelation written only for the Jews? I thought it was a revealing of the mysteries of God for the believers? Hence the 7 letters to the churches. That’s definitely not the Jews. Beside that, there is neither new nor Greek, etc. I didn't say anything about Revelation. The AOD is outlined in Daniel chapter 9 and Matthew chapter 24, but it is not directly referenced as such in the book of Revelation, which was written for the church. In Matthew chapter 24, Jesus is speaking to his disciples...Jewish men, pre-cross and His message at this time was primarily for the Jews, not the Church. The Church did not begin until Pentecost. You reference Galatians 3:28 ...28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.
This verse is talking about Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ. You cannot apply it to unbelieving Jews, or any unbeliever. Only believers have become a new creation in Christ.
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