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Post by fitz on Jul 13, 2018 14:43:11 GMT -6
I think I wrote a similar post some time ago, but feel like it's important for someone out there who is struggling in their faith.
There are lots of great videos on You Tube. Music, instruction (i.e. how to change the drive belt on a Sears lawnmower!), recipes, gardening, on and on. And for us Christians, loads of preachin', teachin', encouragement, prophetic dreams, and plain old dreamers.
But I have become so disheartened of late. The Great Apostasy is in full swing! The wolves are out and they are hungry...chewing up insecure Christians by the dozens, deceiving and leading astray...preaching another gospel...NOT the gospel of grace!
It seems many video posters and commentators have abandoned the teachings of Paul. They are continually fleecing the flock with the lie of the "gospel of works".
According to these false teachers, you can't be saved/raptured until you "repent"...continually, and keep the commandments. Though the word means "to change your mind" (about who Jesus is and what HE has accomplished on our behalf), this is not the way they use it. They are teaching that it means to "change your behavior and keep ALL of the commandments". You gotta "get right" with the Lord. I.e. work your butt off to keep yourself in right standing with God. They are angry and hateful people and their words have the smell of death. They seek to ensnare unsuspecting babes in Christ, chaining them once again to the bondage of law keeping. Can you imagine how it grieves the heart of God that He sent His Son to die, to purchase us with His own precious blood and these tyrants want to steal His glory by trying to prove how "good" they are. It would be better for them if someone tied a millstone around their neck and cast them into the sea. God is not amused with their self-righteousness. Woe to those who lead the little ones astray!
Folks, they are NOT preaching the gospel Paul taught. If we could keep the law, we wouldn't have needed a Savior. Now, no one in their right mind would suggest that we can live any way we want to and trample the grace of God. No, we are to seek the Lord in all things and live holy lives as best as we can. But we are also called to rest in the finished work of Christ. He is the one who justifies, sanctifies and glorifies. We just cooperate with the Holy Spirit in all these things and He does the work. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins (daily is good), He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We repented the day we believed on Jesus! Unless you've renounced faith in Him, you don't have to continually "repent". If you follow Christ, I assume your mind has been changed!
Those who think they can add their works to grace may very well be the ones Jesus talked about in Matthew 7.
21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’
You see, ALL the glory for saving His people goes to Jesus. All of it! If you think you can do something more than what Jesus has already done, then you have missed the boat.
Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”
So then, what is "the will of God" concerning you?
We are now under the covenant of grace. Believe and receive!
Hebrews 10:10 For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.
Acts 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.”
Romans 8:1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
John 20:31 But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life by the power of his name.
Grace through faith...nothing but the blood of Jesus can save you. It is finished! Rest in Him, read the word, and do your best to live a holy life separated from this ungodly world, but don't let anyone tell you you must DO something to get to heaven other than trusting in Christ alone.
1 Timothy 1:16 But God had mercy on me so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of his great patience with even the worst sinners. Then others will realize that they, too, can believe in him and receive eternal life.
Beware of the wolves on You Tube...and everywhere else.
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Post by mike on Jul 13, 2018 17:11:28 GMT -6
AMEN!
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Post by venge on Jul 13, 2018 17:37:43 GMT -6
Fritz,
I agree with most you said but two verses I wanna put up that make me disagree somewhat.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.
John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
In Matthew 22:36-40, Christ says all the law and prophets hang on loving God and loving one another.
We are saved by grace thru faith in Christ. End of story! But, once saved we have a renewing of ourselves. We work to put on the new man. It isn’t automatic. If we love God, we are to obey his commandments. Not obeying is not loving and not loving directs us back to Christ not knowing us. How do you have a relationship if you don’t love them? Love God, obey his commandments.
If you believe in Christ, but you don’t follow God’s commandments therefore not loving him and therefore not loving others....do you go to heaven or does he say, depart from me ye who work iniquity....I never knew you?
Edit: I should add that the apostle Paul also taught to go out to the widows, those in prison, those that needed help and to help them. By feeding them, by clothing them, by loving them, and most importantly by preaching to them. Christ even said at the harvest was great but the laborers are few. There are not enough people going preaching his word. Today are people that are not following what was the true church .
2nd edit: Christ Even says in the beginning of Revelation, that one is able to lose his crown and one is able to even have his name blotted out of the book of life. Christ does not make idle threats.
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Post by fitz on Jul 13, 2018 19:43:29 GMT -6
Well, as I said, we follow Christ, of course we want to live holy lives and serve God. If you aren't doing this at all, then I'd question if your conversion was genuine. Some do this better than others. Men have no ability to judge other men in this regard. Thankfully, God knows the heart of every man and knows who loves him and who doesn't. He will judge fairly. I'm not talking about claiming faith in Christ and then living like the devil. I'm talking about people who want to put the law back on our shoulders. Paul was very clear that law keeping has no power to save. In fact, trying to do so makes it certain that you've not trusted in Christ. I just remember the thief on the cross. He didn't get an hour to keep the commandments. Never kept a single one. Wasn't even baptized. He just put his trust in Jesus and Jesus said he was saved. John 628 They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”29 Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.Pretty clear, huh?Romans 321 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.
Matthew 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Do this and you've fulfilled God's law.
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tyler
New Member
Posts: 14
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Post by tyler on Jul 14, 2018 6:55:40 GMT -6
As some one that has grown up in the church and in a Christian environment, this one area has been an arrow the devil has used on me many a times. I was led by the Holy Spirit this morning to read James 2. Faith without deeds is dead or useless. Does this speak to our salvation, or simply put our salvation (through faith alone in Jesus Christ) will be evident by out deeds. I would love to hear your perspective on this chapter and how it plays into the discussion above.
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Post by fitz on Jul 14, 2018 9:17:54 GMT -6
Thank you Tyler. If your conversion is genuine, then you've received the holy spirit. Think about it, the Creator of the universe and all that is beyond it is living on the inside of you! If we cooperate with His spirit, good works will follow and our faith will be demonstrated. We can certainly grieve the spirit by not being obedient, but He prompts us to do the works and it's by His power that they are achieved. These works will store treasure in heaven.
What I am talking about above is working for your salvation rather than resting and trusting in Christ's finished work. These works are mustered from within the flesh out of fear that God will send you to hell if you don't DO something. The flesh is worthless! No "good work" performed in the flesh will last in heaven, but will be burned up.
Big difference.
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Post by barb84 on Jul 14, 2018 12:17:57 GMT -6
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Post by fitz on Jul 14, 2018 12:22:50 GMT -6
That is (Spurgeon is) brilliant, Barb, thank you!
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Post by venge on Jul 14, 2018 12:58:54 GMT -6
As some one that has grown up in the church and in a Christian environment, this one area has been an arrow the devil has used on me many a times. I was led by the Holy Spirit this morning to read James 2. Faith without deeds is dead or useless. Does this speak to our salvation, or simply put our salvation (through faith alone in Jesus Christ) will be evident by out deeds. I would love to hear your perspective on this chapter and how it plays into the discussion above. My opinion: We are saved by grace thru Christ but your faith is dead if you don’t act on them. Think of it like this. If you believe Christ died and rose again for you, you are saved but now believing that, wouldn’t you want to tell others do they could be saved? Wouldn’t you want to walk in the footsteps of Jesus and help others? Where your heart is your treasures lie also. Knowing that, do you go to church on Sunday to worship or do you stay home and sleep in? Church won’t get you into heaven but if your heart takes presedince over God.....your faith isn’t that strong. Then, do you really believe? Faith without works is dead faith but works don’t get you to heaven. They prove your faith which is already guaranteed. Remind yourself always, God called true believers to be a holy people zealous of good works. Are you Holy at work? Would people that know you say he’s a zealot for good works? They should! That is what causes your light to shine. And when they ask you how you’re doing today, you tell them “better then I should be”. And when they ask why? You say, because I’m a sinner but thank God he has saved even me. And if they ask why you do these things, give God all the glory and tell them you do them for kingdom of God. It’s the Holy Spirit working through you. If someone says you’re only doing it to get to heaven, remind them of Ephesians 2:8 “not by works lest any man should boast”. You do it because your faith is strong and you love good works
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Post by mike on Jul 17, 2018 11:21:05 GMT -6
As some one that has grown up in the church and in a Christian environment, this one area has been an arrow the devil has used on me many a times. I was led by the Holy Spirit this morning to read James 2. Faith without deeds is dead or useless. Does this speak to our salvation, or simply put our salvation (through faith alone in Jesus Christ) will be evident by out deeds. I would love to hear your perspective on this chapter and how it plays into the discussion above. My opinion: We are saved by grace thru Christ but your faith is dead if you don’t act on them. Think of it like this. If you believe Christ died and rose again for you, you are saved but now believing that, wouldn’t you want to tell others do they could be saved? yes but this is not a requirement to be saved Wouldn’t you want to walk in the footsteps of Jesus and help others? yes but not necessarily required for salvation Where your heart is your treasures lie also. 1 John 3:20 If our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and He knows all things. Knowing that, do you go to church on Sunday to worship or do you stay home and sleep in? Personally I do not attend church on Sunday. I have my reasons but church attendance is not a gauge of belief in the slightest...Church won’t get you into heaven but if your heart takes precedence over God.....your faith isn’t that strong. <<see 1 John 3:20>> Then, do you really believe? Faith without works is dead faith but works don’t get you to heaven. They prove your faith which is already guaranteed. Remind yourself always, God called true believers to be a holy people zealous of good works. Are you Holy at work? Would people that know you say he’s a zealot for good works? They should! That is what causes your light to shine. And when they ask you how you’re doing today, you tell them “better then I should be”. And when they ask why? You say, because I’m a sinner but thank God he has saved even me. And if they ask why you do these things, give God all the glory and tell them you do them for kingdom of God. It’s the Holy Spirit working through you. If someone says you’re only doing it to get to heaven, remind them of Ephesians 2:8 “not by works lest any man should boast”. You do it because your faith is strong and you love good works 1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Venge, I realize you clarify your position on this topic but far too often I have heard people say similar things and they equate the lack of visible/tangible works with no faith/not saved. Again I am not saying you are stating that but one could read what you wrote that way. I read through twice because the first read I thought you were saying that. So I wanted to chime in and make sure that works does not equate to faith. Far too often I have felt condemned when I thought I should say something (open my big mouth) but didnt. Only to find out later that had I said what I thought I should say would have created a situation worse than it already was. Oftentimes people want to see you demonstrate your faith rather than hear about it. I have been called a hypocrite for similar reasons. "people dont care how much you know until they know how much you care". Again I am not saying you said any of this or intended to. I am also not saying you do not demonstrate your faith through actions AND words, but just trying to make sure I understand and clarify my thoughts in response to your post. Thanks brother.
tyler - I think I understand your thoughts here. I hear what James is saying loud and clear. Back up to beginning of the chapter and realize that James is first laying out who we are accountable to and how we should not esteem anyone any different than another person. Jump down to verse 8 where he tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves and fulfill the royal law, we love and treat everyone the same...then to the crux of the debate "faith without works is dead" Acting on what you believe and not just talking about it. "hey you look cold and need a jacket, then walk away" OR "hey here's my jacket". It is the proof that you have the faith in God, yet all of our works shall be tested in the day (1 Cor 3:15)
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Post by socalexile on Jul 19, 2018 17:22:22 GMT -6
Fritz, I agree with most you said but two verses I wanna put up that make me disagree somewhat. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. In Matthew 22:36-40, Christ says all the law and prophets hang on loving God and loving one another. We are saved by grace thru faith in Christ. End of story! But, once saved we have a renewing of ourselves. We work to put on the new man. It isn’t automatic. If we love God, we are to obey his commandments. Not obeying is not loving and not loving directs us back to Christ not knowing us. How do you have a relationship if you don’t love them? Love God, obey his commandments. If you believe in Christ, but you don’t follow God’s commandments therefore not loving him and therefore not loving others....do you go to heaven or does he say, depart from me ye who work iniquity....I never knew you? Edit: I should add that the apostle Paul also taught to go out to the widows, those in prison, those that needed help and to help them. By feeding them, by clothing them, by loving them, and most importantly by preaching to them. Christ even said at the harvest was great but the laborers are few. There are not enough people going preaching his word. Today are people that are not following what was the true church . 2nd edit: Christ Even says in the beginning of Revelation, that one is able to lose his crown and one is able to even have his name blotted out of the book of life. Christ does not make idle threats. OK, what are the commandments mentioned in 1 John 5 and in John 14? Read the contexts and they tell you. 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. As for John 14, also look at the context, which spans from John 13:31 through John 15. Notice that Jesus gave the commandments right off the bat: 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another." 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." Notice that in v.35, this is about their witness, not their justification, which is by faith even without works (Romans 4:2-8). But there's another commandment: 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me." So it is as 1 John 3 says. Believe in Christ and love your neighbor. Those are the commandments, and in those commandments, we abide (stand fast) in Christ. This has nothing to do with being justified, i.e. declared innocent, before God. Notice that He told them to "let not your heart be troubled", which He further emphasizes later: 15:11 "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full." On a side note, all you need to take John 15:2, especially if it's an NIV, and scratch out the words "takes away" (or "cut off" in the NIV) and write-in "lifts up", because that's the actual meaning of the word there. The Father is the vinedresser in v.1, and vinedressers would lift up vines off the ground and lay them over on top so that they may grow fruit. So don't live in fear, God has you in His hand; if you believe. These commandments are not a new Law that can condemn us, because there is no condemnation in Jesus (Romans 8:1) but they are how to have fellowship with God.
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Post by socalexile on Jul 19, 2018 17:25:13 GMT -6
As some one that has grown up in the church and in a Christian environment, this one area has been an arrow the devil has used on me many a times. I was led by the Holy Spirit this morning to read James 2. Faith without deeds is dead or useless. Does this speak to our salvation, or simply put our salvation (through faith alone in Jesus Christ) will be evident by out deeds. I would love to hear your perspective on this chapter and how it plays into the discussion above. My opinion: We are saved by grace thru Christ but your faith is dead if you don’t act on them. Think of it like this. If you believe Christ died and rose again for you, you are saved but now believing that, wouldn’t you want to tell others do they could be saved? Wouldn’t you want to walk in the footsteps of Jesus and help others? Where your heart is your treasures lie also. Knowing that, do you go to church on Sunday to worship or do you stay home and sleep in? Church won’t get you into heaven but if your heart takes presedince over God.....your faith isn’t that strong. Then, do you really believe? Faith without works is dead faith but works don’t get you to heaven. They prove your faith which is already guaranteed. Remind yourself always, God called true believers to be a holy people zealous of good works. Are you Holy at work? Would people that know you say he’s a zealot for good works? They should! That is what causes your light to shine. And when they ask you how you’re doing today, you tell them “better then I should be”. And when they ask why? You say, because I’m a sinner but thank God he has saved even me. And if they ask why you do these things, give God all the glory and tell them you do them for kingdom of God. It’s the Holy Spirit working through you. If someone says you’re only doing it to get to heaven, remind them of Ephesians 2:8 “not by works lest any man should boast”. You do it because your faith is strong and you love good works Please read this regarding James 2: expreacherman.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cucuzza-faith-without-works-is-dead.pdf
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 7, 2018 13:36:10 GMT -6
Works...? yea...
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
... that pretty much sums it up for me! Straight out of the mouth of the King of Kings Himself.
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Post by venge on Aug 17, 2018 9:39:52 GMT -6
Just getting back to this topic to answer replies.
My position is works cannot save you or anyone. Not one cent! Someone who is Living according to the word brings forth works.
Otherwise, what is grace? It becomes worthless if works are required. We all know the Romans road.... Not works of righteousness we we have done but according to his mercy he saved us. That mercy was grace given freely.
When I mention works, I’m referring to the man one becomes in Christ. Fruit of the mouth, fruit of the spirit...etc the part of sanctification.
Sorry I should have clarified earlier but I’m in like 15 topics 😂
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Post by socalexile on Aug 21, 2018 13:41:10 GMT -6
Just getting back to this topic to answer replies. My position is works cannot save you or anyone. Not one cent! Someone who is Living according to the word brings forth works. Otherwise, what is grace? It becomes worthless if works are required. If faith alone saves then faith saves even when it's alone. The problem is that people make works a necessary part of salvation because of that sentiment. Yet there is no logical difference between saying that works are necessary prior to faith and saying that they are a necessary condition by which we are responsible after the fact. Sanctification is a one-time event and entirely by Christ at the cross per Hebrews 10:10.
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