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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 16, 2018 19:56:26 GMT -6
It is ok by me that there are two conversations going on because the general idea of this thread was to understand the Woman of Rev 12, and her child, being male, is it the Church?. so the dialog with venge in regards to the constellation aspect of the Woman in Rev 12 is paralleling my thought process. I am just not done yet. first of all, thanks stormyknight for the kind words and recognizing that indeed this is a full platter of meat. I will humbly put forth that my analysis could have some holes in it that don't completely line up, but let's keep testing it. Namely, the "church" I see as female, the Christ-follower I see as the child. Jesus speaking in Mark 10 “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.” this comment came after an episode with the Pharisees: 2Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” 4They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.” 5But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7“FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9“What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”When Eve sinned she betrayed her own marriage, and this one flesh now has the sufferings of pain, but also was made separate from God..this is only the beginnings of things I am seeing about the Kingdom of God and what Jesus spoke about it.. Let me get to this: Here is something that stood out to me in regards to the Woman of Rev 12. I believe there are 2 of them..
1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.Let's do some who, what where when stuff here: Who: Woman What: She Clothed with the Sun Moon under her feet her head has a crown her crown has 12 Stars ( all of this has its meanings as well, but we saw this depicted in the heavens ) What else describes this woman: she was with child (pregnant) she cried out was in pain to give birth WHY was she crying out to give birth? 16To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”She was crying because she was under the curse. Even though she has all this pain, her longing will be for her husband... To me this reads as the day in day out pain from the consequences of her sin will grow and increase, yet thru it all she will desire the other part of her, and that is her husband (husband and wife are one flesh). Jesus equates Himself to this husband, wife as his church (of followers, those longing to be with Him). This nutshell picture is each one of us, suffering the pains of our flesh, the shames, yet within us, we know there is One who we long to "see" to be ONE WITH..restored in our glory, naked like a new born, but NOT ashamed.. SO in looking at Rev 12, I see a past scene, but it has been ongoing. And we see that the man-child was caught up to the thrown, a picture of Jesus. The reminder of this Blessed event of Jesus and his flesh entering into a glorified state in Heaven is expressed in what we just saw in September. ****I believe it showed us a reference point to the rest of Revelation***** The other signs John saw may be yet to be shown in the heavens, or had happened in the skies when Jesus was being crucified, or during the entire 33 years of His life? Has anyone ever looked at Stelarium to find out? but this GREAT sign, it tells a huge story. Currently we have a physical literal example of the Old Law: modern day Israel. Indeed there is something to the events and locations and all that in regards to our beloved ally as we watchers go about our watching. However, there is something else going on in this war that has been going on since the Curse and since God sent us His Son to begin the process of salvaging this mess. I think the Woman of Rev 12 is possibly two types of women..the Woman of Israel where those prophecies have been given and we spend hours trying to interpret them, and the other Woman which is the fallible flesh of each one of us, and how we have been struggling against the principalities. Notice these two verses: 6Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
14But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.One is calculable, the other one is vague and referencing seasons... and for my brother venge : 14Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
signs and seasons are for the spiritual ear and God's clock perhaps, while days and years for the literal physical timeframe of earth. Just tossing that out there... |
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Post by venge on Jul 17, 2018 14:55:40 GMT -6
It is ok by me that there are two conversations going on because the general idea of this thread was to understand the Woman of Rev 12, and her child, being male, is it the Church?. so the dialog with venge in regards to the constellation aspect of the Woman in Rev 12 is paralleling my thought process. I am just not done yet. first of all, thanks stormyknight for the kind words and recognizing that indeed this is a full platter of meat. I will humbly put forth that my analysis could have some holes in it that don't completely line up, but let's keep testing it. Namely, the "church" I see as female, the Christ-follower I see as the child. Jesus speaking in Mark 10 “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.” this comment came after an episode with the Pharisees: 2Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” 4They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.” 5But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7“FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9“What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”When Eve sinned she betrayed her own marriage, and this one flesh now has the sufferings of pain, but also was made separate from God..this is only the beginnings of things I am seeing about the Kingdom of God and what Jesus spoke about it.. Let me get to this: Here is something that stood out to me in regards to the Woman of Rev 12. I believe there are 2 of them..
1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.Let's do some who, what where when stuff here: Who: Woman What: She Clothed with the Sun Moon under her feet her head has a crown her crown has 12 Stars ( all of this has its meanings as well, but we saw this depicted in the heavens ) What else describes this woman: she was with child (pregnant) she cried out was in pain to give birth WHY was she crying out to give birth? 16To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”She was crying because she was under the curse. Even though she has all this pain, her longing will be for her husband... To me this reads as the day in day out pain from the consequences of her sin will grow and increase, yet thru it all she will desire the other part of her, and that is her husband (husband and wife are one flesh). Jesus equates Himself to this husband, wife as his church (of followers, those longing to be with Him). This nutshell picture is each one of us, suffering the pains of our flesh, the shames, yet within us, we know there is One who we long to "see" to be ONE WITH..restored in our glory, naked like a new born, but NOT ashamed.. SO in looking at Rev 12, I see a past scene, but it has been ongoing. And we see that the man-child was caught up to the thrown, a picture of Jesus. The reminder of this Blessed event of Jesus and his flesh entering into a glorified state in Heaven is expressed in what we just saw in September. ****I believe it showed us a reference point to the rest of Revelation***** The other signs John saw may be yet to be shown in the heavens, or had happened in the skies when Jesus was being crucified, or during the entire 33 years of His life? Has anyone ever looked at Stelarium to find out? but this GREAT sign, it tells a huge story. Currently we have a physical literal example of the Old Law: modern day Israel. Indeed there is something to the events and locations and all that in regards to our beloved ally as we watchers go about our watching. However, there is something else going on in this war that has been going on since the Curse and since God sent us His Son to begin the process of salvaging this mess. I think the Woman of Rev 12 is possibly two types of women..the Woman of Israel where those prophecies have been given and we spend hours trying to interpret them, and the other Woman which is the fallible flesh of each one of us, and how we have been struggling against the principalities. Notice these two verses: 6Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
14But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.One is calculable, the other one is vague and referencing seasons... and for my brother venge : 14Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
signs and seasons are for the spiritual ear and God's clock perhaps, while days and years for the literal physical timeframe of earth. Just tossing that out there... Here is a question, if the sign in heaven was a literal sign to be seen by believers, why can’t we see it with the naked eye? Why do we need telescopes and special lenses? If it was a sign that was to be seen by all, then all should be able to see it from the earth with the eyes of the world. If this is considered to be a literal sign, wouldn’t believers see it all over the world and not just Mostly in the United States in the UK by some talking about it? I’m trying to still put myself in your 👠Barbie, Natalie, and the rest they do “likes” on all of your messages here but I am still not seeing “it” that every eye can see that is awake or interpret Rev 12 to mean past and future. The Bible says line by line, precept by precept. What do we have outside Rev 12 to back up a literal fulfillment in actual outer space ? I take The verse describing signs in seasons days and years as an example from Leviticus for the sabbatical days and for the feasts and how to keep a record of each. And that is it, nothing more. |
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Post by Natalie on Jul 17, 2018 16:24:51 GMT -6
Virgo being clothed in the sun means that some kind of planetary software was needed to see it when it was complete. The sun was between us and the alignment. However, parts could be seen before the sun rose and after it set. No need for telescopes or special lenses. I can go outside this evening and see Jupiter, Saturn, Virgo, Arcturus...all without a telescope (although I think that would be really cool) And I live in a large city so a lot of stars aren't as visible.
I don't think people are talking about it for at least three reasons: They are asleep, they are busy with every day life and don't know about it, or they think it's astrology and dismiss it.
Jesus said there would be signs in the sun, moon, and stars. I can look up the verse later...got to go get supper out of the oven.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 17, 2018 18:13:31 GMT -6
venge, Not gonna argue with you on the astrological aspect of the Woman. It does not worry me if we are not in agreement with this aspect of Rev 12, and your points are very valid. ...but what about the rest of what I am saying? I am trying to bring home a very deep point about this Woman. Clearly some Woman is a Great Sign... what woman are we talking about? A real girl? a mom? a harlot? a wife? a widow? or is this Woman symbolic of something much more involved with the Revealing of Jesus Christ? afterall, we just got done reading about 4 living creatures and 24 elders, and hearing about 144,000 do you see my point?
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Post by boraddict on Jul 17, 2018 19:21:47 GMT -6
Venge, have you seen the story about the 12 new moons that were recently (2017) found around Jupiter? A side note: at one time Jupiter was a star; a brown dwarf most scientists say. The moons were found with modern technology, and who gave us this modern technology? Come on Venge, you are almost there. Say it, G-G-G- God.  You got it, brother. |
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Post by venge on Jul 18, 2018 6:05:50 GMT -6
Venge, have you seen the story about the 12 new moons that were recently (2017) found around Jupiter? A side note: at one time Jupiter was a star; a brown dwarf most scientists say. The moons were found with modern technology, and who gave us this modern technology? Come on Venge, you are almost there. Say it, G-G-G- God. You got it, brother. Just read the replies... Boarding a plane atm, I will reply when I reach the next area. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 18, 2018 7:43:39 GMT -6
Felt the need to check on something.
The 7 Churches of Revelation. First, the word, 'church' in the greek is
ekklésia. strong's has it meaning the whole body of Christian believers, assembly, church ..it is a Feminine noun.
So I looked at the name of all the individual assemblies and they too are Feminine Nouns, EXCEPT for the Church of Thyatira, which has a Neuter gender. This church has always intrigued my interest in regards to Revelation because Jesus describes this church very much like a church that is following the Harlot/Mystery Babylon
20‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
21‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
22‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
23‘And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
Does this not sound like this:
1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
2with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.” ....
5and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”...
7“To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.’ 8“For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
back to the letter: 21‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Can there even be the suggestion that this "woman" equates to the heart and mind of disobedience that causes man to walk apart form God, to be deceived into religions and not faith?
Notice the overcomer of this Church (and by the way, we switch to masculine pronoun)
26‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; 27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father; 28and I will give him the morning star.
Quite the title to these peoples. The bold type is from the version I am using which capitalizes the OT references. These last verses are quoting Psalm 2
6“But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”
7“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”
My point is that if we are following the desire of our heart and not Jesus, our desire become like adultery to the Lord, going all the way beck to when Eve betrayed her God and listened to someone else. We will never know the heart of each person until the revealing happens, and Jesus even says this ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. 20‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Seems like a good church in His eyes, but even so, look at the one thing those of this church are doing..tolerating this jezebel..hmmm..Rev 17 shows us this is not a good idea...
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Post by venge on Jul 18, 2018 8:46:52 GMT -6
Venge, have you seen the story about the 12 new moons that were recently (2017) found around Jupiter? A side note: at one time Jupiter was a star; a brown dwarf most scientists say. The moons were found with modern technology, and who gave us this modern technology? Come on Venge, you are almost there. Say it, G-G-G- God. You got it, brother. Ok I’m in NC now waiting on my next plane! Lol, just left FL. Bora, I’m aware of the 12 moons and God did not give us technology. Man did. God gave us knowledge to discover things. Regardless, I’m not star struck as some are. I need scriptural evidence outside Rev 12 and outside a verses saying moon and stars are for signs. Evidence that Rev 12 is future in multiple places, here a little there a little |
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Post by venge on Jul 18, 2018 8:49:39 GMT -6
Felt the need to check on something. The 7 Churches of Revelation. First, the word, 'church' in the greek is ekklésia. strong's has it meaning the whole body of Christian believers, assembly, church ..it is a Feminine noun.So I looked at the name of all the individual assemblies and they too are Feminine Nouns, EXCEPT for the Church of Thyatira, which has a Neuter gender. This church has always intrigued my interest in regards to Revelation because Jesus describes this church very much like a church that is following the Harlot/Mystery Babylon 20‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
21‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
22‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
23‘And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.Does this not sound like this: 1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
2with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.” ....
5and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”...
7“To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.’ 8“For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong. back to the letter: 21‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Can there even be the suggestion that this "woman" equates to the heart and mind of disobedience that causes man to walk apart form God, to be deceived into religions and not faith? Notice the overcomer of this Church (and by the way, we switch to masculine pronoun) 26‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; 27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father; 28and I will give him the morning star. Quite the title to these peoples. The bold type is from the version I am using which capitalizes the OT references. These last verses are quoting Psalm 2 6“But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”
7“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”My point is that if we are following the desire of our heart and not Jesus, our desire become like adultery to the Lord, going all the way beck to when Eve betrayed her God and listened to someone else. We will never know the heart of each person until the revealing happens, and Jesus even says this ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. 20‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. Seems like a good church in His eyes, but even so, look at the one thing those of this church are doing..tolerating this jezebel..hmmm..Rev 17 shows us this is not a good idea... Barbie, I love your stuff because we think alike, haha. It is interesting you mentioned the above verses because in relation to the harlots religion...I’m also know under the opinion of a religion I have not PMd you about I’d like to discuss I came across on the plane lol |
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Post by stormyknight on Jul 18, 2018 10:30:13 GMT -6
just some definitions I looked up:
Marriage: noun
noun: marriage; plural noun: marriages 1.the legally or formally recognized union of two people as partners in a personal relationship (historically and in some jurisdictions specifically a union between a man and a woman). notice the part in parenthesis? I'm guessing that had to be added because of state of the world today.
Adultery: n.
"voluntary violation of the marriage bed," c.1300, avoutrie, from Old French avouterie (12c.), noun of condition from avoutre, from Latin adulterare "to corrupt". Most definitions state that adultery is "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse." but I found this definition better suites our purpose here.
The marriage bed is the most intimate place in a marriage. So where is the most intimate place in our relationship with Jesus?
"I, the LORD, search the heart; I test the mind to reward a man according to his way, by what his deeds deserve." Jer. 17:10
"Test me, O LORD, and try me; examine my heart and mind." Psalm 26:2
"Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my concerns." Psalm 139:23
Eve let satan in and followed after his voice, convinced that she knew better than what God had told her. She violated that most intimate place. She let satan come between her and God. We do the same when we are lured away from our walk with Jesus by temptations of 'shiny' things. Those temptations can be extremely strong when they are directed at our own personal weaknesses. Praise to our Heavenly Father that He forgives and forgets. "Love...keeps no account of wrongs." 1 Cor. 13:5
ok, didn't mean to get off track. Just wanted to put that out there. I do wonder what is meant, though, by the use of the word "tolerate" in that verse, Rev. 2:20. How are they 'tolerating' Jezebel? Is that directed a just one person or at anyone that tries to lure away God's Children, be it through a religion or science or astrology or even things like fashion or vegetarianism or the flat earth society. I'm not bashing these things, but, I think, they tend to draw a person away from the straight and narrow path. I suppose anything that we allow to come between us and God would be adulterous in the spiritual sense. I know that sounds extreme, but, that is what it all comes down to, right? I would have to say that Jesus never let anything come between Him and His/our Heavenly Father.
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Post by nana on Jul 18, 2018 12:02:32 GMT -6
Maybe we should look at who the Church is from its foundation. Who is the church? it is not a building nor a place. Breaking it down in its most simplest and basic form it is people composed of males and females who have accepted Yeshua/Jesus as their only Saviour.
I think more often than not we tend to complicate things instead of keeping it in the most simplest of terms. Remember, we are told even a child could understand.
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