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666
Nov 17, 2018 19:34:59 GMT -6
Post by venge on Nov 17, 2018 19:34:59 GMT -6
That shows us: Seals 1-7 happen Then 144k are sealed. THEN, Babylon must fall, THEN, the marriage supper Now, do you place the marriage supper before or after the harvest of the earth? One thing is for sure, in order for Babylon to be destroyed, the beast of the sea and of the earth must be present and known in order to destroy Babylon; placing the falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist BEFORE Babylon is destroyed. Do you agree? Venge, I think Chapter 14 provides an excellent order of events as you have shown: 1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14)In addition to the order in Chapter 14, Chapter 19 tells us as you have stated in your previous post: "In Rev 19, it says "after these things" That is after the fall of Babylon, which is shown in Rev 19:2: ' for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.' Then we see the marriage in Rev 19:6-9." Thus: 1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19)3) The harvest (Ch. 14) Thus, the 144,000 are sealed, Babylon is destroyed, the marriage takes place, and lastly is the harvest. This is a foundation of evidence that we both agree upon. Next, the sealing of the 144,000 in Chapter 7 that follows the Sixth Seal in Chapter 6 as follows: Sixth Seal (Ch. 6)1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14 & 7) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14) Next is the prayers of saints in the Fifth Seal. Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) prayers of saints (Ch. 6)Sixth Seal (Ch. 6)1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14 & 7) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14) Next is the answer to the prayers of saints from the Fifth Seal occurring in the Seventh Seal prior to the destruction of Babylon. That is, the saints of the Fifth Seal are avenged via the destruction of Babylon and this is proved via the links between Verses 6:10, 18:20, and 19:2 and applies at Verses 8:3-5 as follows: Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) Prayers of saints (Ch.6) Sixth Seal (Ch. 6)1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14 & 7) Seventh Seal (Ch. 8) a) Prayers of saints rise up to God (Ch.8)2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19 & Verses 8:3-5) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14) Next is the beast and false prophet that are cast out (Ch. 19) that occurs at the same time as the harvest. Thus, the harvest is the separation of the wheat (saints) and tares (followers of the beast) at the beginning, and the grapes at the ending. Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) Prayers of saints (Ch.6) Sixth Seal (Ch. 6)1) The 144,000 are sealed (Ch. 14 & 7) Seventh Seal (Ch. 8) a) Prayers of saints rise up to God (Ch.8) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19 & Verses 8:3-5) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14) a) wheat & tares (Ch. 14 & 19) b) grapes (Ch. 14)I think we can safely say that the sealing and rapture go hand in hand; because, the 144,000 came out of great tribulation (v. 7:14) being redeemed from the earth (v. 14:3). So, the rapture is included with the sealing as follows:
Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) Prayers of saints (Ch.6)Sixth Seal (Ch. 6)1) The 144,000 are sealed and enraptured (Ch. 14 & 7) Seventh Seal (Ch. 8) a) Prayers of saints rise up to God (Ch.8) 2) Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19 & Verses 8:3-5) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14) a) wheat & tares (Ch. 14 & 19)) b) grapes (Ch. 14)
So now it is simply a matter of adding the 3 woes as follows:
Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) Prayers of saints (Ch.6) Sixth Seal (Ch. 6) 1) The 144,000 are sealed and enraptured (Ch. 14 & 7) Seventh Seal (Ch. 8) a) Prayers of saints rise up to God (Ch.8) 2) The 1st Woe - Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19 & Verses 8:3-5, Ch. 9) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14 & 19) a) The 2nd Woe - wheat & tares (Ch. 14 & 9) b) The 3rd Woe - grapes (Ch. 14 & 11)
And the trumpets as follows:
Fifth Seal (Ch. 6) a) Prayers of saints (Ch.6) Sixth Seal (Ch. 6) 1) The 144,000 are sealed and enraptured (Ch. 14 & 7) Seventh Seal (Ch. 8) a) Prayers of saints rise up to God (Ch.8) 2) The 5th trumpet - The 1st Woe - Babylon is destroyed (Ch. 14 & 19 & Verses 8:3-5, Ch. 9) a) The Marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest (Ch. 14 & 19) a) The 6th trumpet - The 2nd Woe - wheat & tares (Ch. 14 & 9) b) The 7th trumpet - The 3rd Woe - grapes (Ch. 14 & 11)
Since the trumpets are the warnings then the bowls are the action.
Question 1: If you place the marriage supper before the harvest, How do you go to the marriage supper if you have not been harvested into His barn yet? Question 2: You stated: I think we can safely say that the sealing and rapture go hand in hand; because, the 144,000 came out of great tribulation (v. 7:14) being redeemed from the earth (v. 14:3) The 144k are not those that come out of tribulation by verse 14 because the wording describes differently.
That is the 144k. Their number is identified. They do not get raptured as we find out later they are on the earth with Christ. Verse 14 is not describing the 144k but instead describing others.
The 144k are numbered. This multitude is not numbered because it is so great. The 144k are 12k from 12 tribes. This multitude is from ALL tribes, not the 12 of Israel but the gentile tribes of the earth. Not the Hebrew language but ALL tongues. This grp that is a part of verse 14 is not the 144k but gentile mankind. ie Christians.
The 1st Woe is the 5th Trumpet. The 5th Trumpet does not describe literally or figuratively Babylon or its destruction. The 2nd Woe is the 6th Trumpet and cannot be completed till the 2 witnesses are dead and raised. The 6th trumpet does not describe literally or figuratively Babylon or its destruction. Is the 3rd Woe of the 7th Trumpet linked to the harvest of the earth? I would say yes at this time.
When the 7th trumpet sounds it says:
Remember, Christ cannot reign till all enemies are under his feet. At the 7th Trumpet they are. If they are enemies under his feet, all believers are already removed by the end of the 7th trumpet. The other key point is what is said next.
So Christ now can reward believers. And now that his enemies are under his feet now he can destroy them. That's what we see in Matthew 13:30
The 7th Trumpet is the harvest. The bowl judgements are the burning of the tares. In this regard, it is interesting what Christ says in Matthew 13:38-40
If the good seed are the children of the kingdom, GOOD children of God go through tribulation. Christ said it here! The harvest is at the end of the age where good children are removed into his barn and we know that happens at the 7th Trumpet. Why would good children of the kingdom go through tribulation? Matthew 24 makes it crystal clear
Let me paint the picture. If verse 29 describes the 6th seal, it is speaking of tribulation (time of sorrows or birth pangs) and not the great tribulation. Verse 30-31 describe the harvest. In either event, we can identify the harvest after the 6th seal.
EDIT: 8:38PM to add to this analogy, the good women and her family in Jericho went through the 7th trumpet blast and then they were removed from danger. Then the armies went in and destroyed the rest of the people. =P
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666
Nov 18, 2018 3:07:32 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Nov 18, 2018 3:07:32 GMT -6
Hi Venge, I was looking at the evidence in the chapters as follows:
1) "Question 1: If you place the marriage supper before the harvest, How do you go to the marriage supper if you have not been harvested into His barn yet? " Answer: I was looking at Chapter 19 that shows the fall of Babylon, and then the marriage, and then the war with the beast. Since the beast and his followers are the tares, then it follows that when the tares are burned, the wheat is harvested.
1) The fall of Babylon (Ch. 19) 2) The marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest a) The wheat (vv. 14:14-16) and the tares (vv. 19:11-21)
Since the prayers of the saints (v. 6:10) is answered in the 7th seal at Verse 8:3-5, and this links to Verses 18:20 and 19:2 that is the fall of Babylon, then the fall of Babylon is in the 7th seal as follows:
7th Seal (Ch. 8) 1) The fall of Babylon (Ch. 19) 2) The marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest a) The wheat (vv. 14:14-16) and the tares (vv. 19:11-21)
Since the sealing of the 144,000 is in Chapter 7 that precedes the 7th seal, then the sealing of the 144,000 is in the 6th seal.
6th Seal (Ch. 6) The 144,000 are sealed and this is the barley harvest that we are looking for that is the rapture of the first fruits. 7th Seal (Ch. 8) 1) The fall of Babylon (Ch. 19) 2) The marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest a) The wheat (vv. 14:14-16) and the tares (vv. 19:11-21)
2) "Question 2: You stated: I think we can safely say that the sealing and rapture go hand in hand; because, the 144,000 came out of great tribulation (v. 7:14) being redeemed from the earth (v. 14:3) The 144k are not those that come out of tribulation by verse 14 because the wording describes differently. 'And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. ' That is the 144k. Their number is identified. They do not get raptured as we find out later they are on the earth with Christ. Verse 14 is not describing the 144k but instead describing others. 'After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands .' The 144k are numbered. This multitude is not numbered because it is so great. The 144k are 12k from 12 tribes. This multitude is from ALL tribes, not the 12 of Israel but the gentile tribes of the earth. Not the Hebrew language but ALL tongues. This grp that is a part of verse 14 is not the 144k but gentile mankind. ie Christians."
Answer: The verses are showing that the number is not limited to the 144,000 but there is a "great multitude." Thus, within the great multitude is the 144,000 that are sealed. This great multitude is the barley harvest that is the rapture in the 6th seal.
Side Note: I had always believed that the fall of Babylon was in the 4th seal. However, it appears that the seals run together quickly as follows:
4th seal, beast arises to destroy Babylon, the plagues begin 5th seal, the prayers of the saints 6th seal, the sealing of the 144,000 and the rapture 7th seal, the destruction of Babylon and the beast rules the earth and this is the first woe. As such, the first woe actually begins at Verse 6:1 with the rise of the Savior's champion and that appears to be Donald Trump. So we should see a series of four leaders: Trump and another two, and then the beast taking the world by storm. Just a thought.
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666
Nov 18, 2018 17:24:25 GMT -6
Post by venge on Nov 18, 2018 17:24:25 GMT -6
Hi Venge, I was looking at the evidence in the chapters as follows: 1) "Question 1: If you place the marriage supper before the harvest, How do you go to the marriage supper if you have not been harvested into His barn yet? " Answer: I was looking at Chapter 19 that shows the fall of Babylon, and then the marriage, and then the war with the beast. Since the beast and his followers are the tares, then it follows that when the tares are burned, the wheat is harvested. 1) The fall of Babylon (Ch. 19) 2) The marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest a) The wheat (vv. 14:14-16) and the tares (vv. 19:11-21) Since the prayers of the saints (v. 6:10) is answered in the 7th seal at Verse 8:3-5, and this links to Verses 18:20 and 19:2 that is the fall of Babylon, then the fall of Babylon is in the 7th seal as follows: 7th Seal (Ch. 8)1) The fall of Babylon (Ch. 19) 2) The marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest a) The wheat (vv. 14:14-16) and the tares (vv. 19:11-21) Since the sealing of the 144,000 is in Chapter 7 that precedes the 7th seal, then the sealing of the 144,000 is in the 6th seal. 6th Seal (Ch. 6)The 144,000 are sealed and this is the barley harvest that we are looking for that is the rapture of the first fruits. 7th Seal (Ch. 8)1) The fall of Babylon (Ch. 19) 2) The marriage (Ch. 19) 3) The harvest a) The wheat (vv. 14:14-16) and the tares (vv. 19:11-21) 2) "Question 2: You stated: I think we can safely say that the sealing and rapture go hand in hand; because, the 144,000 came out of great tribulation (v. 7:14) being redeemed from the earth (v. 14:3) The 144k are not those that come out of tribulation by verse 14 because the wording describes differently. 'And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. ' That is the 144k. Their number is identified. They do not get raptured as we find out later they are on the earth with Christ. Verse 14 is not describing the 144k but instead describing others. 'After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands .' The 144k are numbered. This multitude is not numbered because it is so great. The 144k are 12k from 12 tribes. This multitude is from ALL tribes, not the 12 of Israel but the gentile tribes of the earth. Not the Hebrew language but ALL tongues. This grp that is a part of verse 14 is not the 144k but gentile mankind. ie Christians." Answer: The verses are showing that the number is not limited to the 144,000 but there is a "great multitude." Thus, within the great multitude is the 144,000 that are sealed. This great multitude is the barley harvest that is the rapture in the 6th seal. Side Note: I had always believed that the fall of Babylon was in the 4th seal. However, it appears that the seals run together quickly as follows: 4th seal, beast arises to destroy Babylon, the plagues begin 5th seal, the prayers of the saints 6th seal, the sealing of the 144,000 and the rapture 7th seal, the destruction of Babylon and the beast rules the earth and this is the first woe. As such, the first woe actually begins at Verse 6:1 with the rise of the Savior's champion and that appears to be Donald Trump. So we should see a series of four leaders: Trump and another two, and then the beast taking the world by storm. Just a thought. Hello Bora, You had said: Chapter 19 shows: 1. The victory over Babylon. (Rev 19:1-9) 2. The marriage of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-10) 3. The wine press (Rev 19:11-16) 4. Armageddon (Rev 19:17-20) - the 6th Bowl The issue is placing the marriage supper's location. Of course it is after Babylon's destruction. That is why I asked, if the marriage precedes the harvest, how does one get to the marriage supper if he has not been harvested yet? Verse 1 says that John heard the voice of a great multitude. Is this the same great multitude no one could number of all tribes, tongues...etc from Rev 7? In either case, I would think that in order to attend the marriage supper of the groom, all are called. Therefore, how can we place it before a harvest? Suppose we are harvested into His barn...to get us ready for the marriage supper. If the marriage supper comes first, we are harvested into his barn after and we miss it even though we are saved. The second example doesn't make sense to me. I would not equate the 7th seal with Babylon's fall.
The reasoning behind this is because if the beast destroys Babylon BEFORE the Trumpets, how do you surmise the fall of Jerusalem after Babylon's fall and your placing Babylon's fall in the first 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week. There needs to be conquering of nations, war famine and death. There needs to be killing of Christians. There needs to be the last kingdom seen and we need to see a falling away as well as the revealing of the AC when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. All that should happen prior to Babylon's fall. If so, and the AC is revealed in the proximity of Daniel's 70th week, it doesn't make sense in a time line to place Babylon's fall before Jerusalem's takeover. You stated: Scripture doesn't show the 144k with the great multitude. These are only the 144k. After the 144k, it is not made up of them. This great multitude stands before the throne and the lamb. In Rev 14, the 144k stand on the earth with Christ. Separate from the multitude in heaven. They are not the same group nor are both groups mixed. To be sealed is to receive the holy spirit. They did not die nor did they enter heaven. They were not translated. It is the conversion of the Jews to Christ. This is the time they are no longer blinded. Belief comes to the Jews.
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666
Nov 19, 2018 1:38:07 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Nov 19, 2018 1:38:07 GMT -6
Hi venge, I see what you are saying about Chapter 19 as follows:
You said "Chapter 19 shows: 1. The victory over Babylon. (Rev 19:1-9) 2. The marriage of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-10) 3. The wine press (Rev 19:11-16) 4. Armageddon (Rev 19:17-20) - the 6th Bowl"
I) We are in agreement with regard to Verses 19:1-10 being the victory over Babylon and the marriage of the Lamb.
II) We are in disagreement with regard to Verses 19:11-16.
For item 3 above, the wine press is item number 16 in a series of 17 attributes of the Savior as follows: v. 19:11, 1) heaven opened, 2) he sat upon a white horse, 3) he was called Faithful and True, 4) in righteousness he does judge, 5) and make war. v. 19:12, 6) eyes were like a flame of fire, 7) on his head were many crowns, 8) had a name written that no man knew but himself. v. 19:13, 9) clothed in a vesture dipped in blood, 10) his name is called The Word of God. v. 19:14, 11) the armies in heaven followed him upon white horses, 12) they were clothed in fine linen that was white and clean. v. 19:15, 13) out of his mouth was a two edged sword, 14) that with the sword he should smite the nations, 15) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, 16) and he treads the wine press with the fierceness of the wrath of God. v. 19:16, 17) on his vesture and on his thigh is the name written King of Kings, And Lord of Lords. Thus, the reference to the wine press in Verse 19:15 is that of one item in a list of 17 items describing the Savior, and not the literal act of treading the wine press as is shown in Verses 14:18-20.
III) We are in agreement that Revelation 19:17-21 pertain to the great battle of Armageddon that is the 6th bowl. However, I also include that this is the 6th trumpet as referenced in the 2nd woe for the following reasons:
1) the river Euphrates in which the four angels were bound (v. 9:14) is the river Euphrates in which the water was dried up 16:12). 2) the four angels which were prepared to slay 1/3 of mankind (v. 9:9:15) correlates to the way of the kings of the east being prepared (v. 16:12) 3) the fire, smoke, and brimstone out of the mouths (vv. 9:17-18) correlates to the three unclean spirits out of the mouths (vv. 16:13:14). 4) the kings of the earth are gathered to battle (v. 16:14, 19:19).
The interesting thing about this is that the kings of the earth (v. 16:14, 19:19) are the 144,000 (v. 5:10). Thus, Verse 16:14 reads: "For they (the 3 unclean spirits from Verse 16:13) are the spirits of devils working miracles, which go forth (in preparation for battle) unto the kings of the earth (that are the seven angels (v. 5:10) including all 144,000 (v. 14:1)), and (not only to the 144,000 but to) the whole world, to gather them (the 144,000 against the whole world) to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. It is in that great battle that the beast and his false prophet are cast into the pit (v. 19:20). Notice that this great battle involves the 144,000. Since the wine-press is the Savior acting alone, then this great battle is not the wine-press (vv. 14:18-20) but the harvest (vv. 14:14-16).
Thus, the Lord stands with his army (vv. 14:1, 19:11-16) and that army is gathered to make war (vv. 9:14, 14:14-15, 16:12) that is the battle of Armageddon (vv. 9:15-20, 14:16, 16:16, 19:19-21)
The wine-press follows (v. 14:18-20) as great hail in Verses 11.19 and 16:21
Thus, 1) Armageddon, and 2) the wine-press, are two separate and distinct events.
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666
Nov 22, 2018 10:20:59 GMT -6
Post by venge on Nov 22, 2018 10:20:59 GMT -6
Hi venge, I see what you are saying about Chapter 19 as follows: You said "Chapter 19 shows: 1. The victory over Babylon. (Rev 19:1-9) 2. The marriage of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-10) 3. The wine press (Rev 19:11-16) 4. Armageddon (Rev 19:17-20) - the 6th Bowl" I) We are in agreement with regard to Verses 19:1-10 being the victory over Babylon and the marriage of the Lamb. II) We are in disagreement with regard to Verses 19:11-16. For item 3 above, the wine press is item number 16 in a series of 17 attributes of the Savior as follows: v. 19:11, 1) heaven opened, 2) he sat upon a white horse, 3) he was called Faithful and True, 4) in righteousness he does judge, 5) and make war. v. 19:12, 6) eyes were like a flame of fire, 7) on his head were many crowns, 8) had a name written that no man knew but himself. v. 19:13, 9) clothed in a vesture dipped in blood, 10) his name is called The Word of God. v. 19:14, 11) the armies in heaven followed him upon white horses, 12) they were clothed in fine linen that was white and clean. v. 19:15, 13) out of his mouth was a two edged sword, 14) that with the sword he should smite the nations, 15) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, 16) and he treads the wine press with the fierceness of the wrath of God. v. 19:16, 17) on his vesture and on his thigh is the name written King of Kings, And Lord of Lords. Thus, the reference to the wine press in Verse 19:15 is that of one item in a list of 17 items describing the Savior, and not the literal act of treading the wine press as is shown in Verses 14:18-20. III) We are in agreement that Revelation 19:17-21 pertain to the great battle of Armageddon that is the 6th bowl. However, I also include that this is the 6th trumpet as referenced in the 2nd woe for the following reasons: 1) the river Euphrates in which the four angels were bound (v. 9:14) is the river Euphrates in which the water was dried up 16:12). 2) the four angels which were prepared to slay 1/3 of mankind (v. 9:9:15) correlates to the way of the kings of the east being prepared (v. 16:12) 3) the fire, smoke, and brimstone out of the mouths (vv. 9:17-18) correlates to the three unclean spirits out of the mouths (vv. 16:13:14). 4) the kings of the earth are gathered to battle (v. 16:14, 19:19). The interesting thing about this is that the kings of the earth (v. 16:14, 19:19) are the 144,000 (v. 5:10). Thus, Verse 16:14 reads: "For they (the 3 unclean spirits from Verse 16:13) are the spirits of devils working miracles, which go forth (in preparation for battle) unto the kings of the earth (that are the seven angels (v. 5:10) including all 144,000 (v. 14:1)), and (not only to the 144,000 but to) the whole world, to gather them (the 144,000 against the whole world) to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. It is in that great battle that the beast and his false prophet are cast into the pit (v. 19:20). Notice that this great battle involves the 144,000. Since the wine-press is the Savior acting alone, then this great battle is not the wine-press (vv. 14:18-20) but the harvest (vv. 14:14-16). Thus, the Lord stands with his army (vv. 14:1, 19:11-16) and that army is gathered to make war (vv. 9:14, 14:14-15, 16:12) that is the battle of Armageddon (vv. 9:15-20, 14:16, 16:16, 19:19-21) The wine-press follows (v. 14:18-20) as great hail in Verses 11.19 and 16:21 Thus, 1) Armageddon, and 2) the wine-press, are two separate and distinct events. Bora: You have stated: I disagree with you on the interpretation here. The literal act of treading the wine press is seen in verse 13 and 15 which I will highlight in red above. I point you to Isaiah 63:1-4 Now in Joel 3:13 below, we see the wine press again being seen. It is at the harvest that we see it. That is why in Rev 14:17-20 we saw: Then, you had said you linked: the fire, smoke, and brimstone out of the mouths (vv. 9:17-18) correlates to the three unclean spirits out of the mouths (vv. 16:13:14).It can but I am not so sure. Fire, smoke and brimstone can be literal. But here, they come out of the wicked people's mouth showing that it is not literal but figurative. Fire, smoke and brimstone function like wicked speech, foul smelling, suffocating, full of falsehood and lies. Speech meant to burn men's souls and to inflict harm by being contrary to God's words. The 3 unclean frogs, though they come out of a mouth and have a function like speech, represent unclean spirits. Not the speech itself. Frogs were considered an unclean animal to the Jews but symbolically here, the issue is the unclean spirit itself. We can see a person trough how they live their life and tell what type of spirit this person has as we can tell if they bring forth fruit worthy to God. The Bible doesn't repeat itself in the same way. Some passages offer more info on a subject to explain it better. Using the 3 frogs and also the 3 fires, I don't see why it would be repeated if it were all the same. I will continue to look at it, but atm, I am not persuaded yet. Lastly, I agree Armageddon and the wine press are 2 separate events. They are never spoken of in the same terms.
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666
Nov 22, 2018 12:12:21 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Nov 22, 2018 12:12:21 GMT -6
Venge, thank you for your response and the most important part is that you agree that "Armageddon and the wine press are 2 separate events." That is important to me because it is a major point in our analysis of the BoR. It is nice to have that confirmed by you.
For me Armageddon is the great battle in which the beast looses, and the wine press is the large stones (perhaps meteors) raining upon the earth. I often wonder how this is to be done and imagine the earth being moved through the asteroid belt being plummeted by millions of asteroids.
It is for that reason that the wine press being placed in Verses 19:13 and 15 does not work for me except as a reference to what Lord Jesus is going to do.
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666
Nov 25, 2018 9:00:33 GMT -6
Post by venge on Nov 25, 2018 9:00:33 GMT -6
Venge, thank you for your response and the most important part is that you agree that "Armageddon and the wine press are 2 separate events." That is important to me because it is a major point in our analysis of the BoR. It is nice to have that confirmed by you. For me Armageddon is the great battle in which the beast looses, and the wine press is the large stones (perhaps meteors) raining upon the earth. I often wonder how this is to be done and imagine the earth being moved through the asteroid belt being plummeted by millions of asteroids. It is for that reason that the wine press being placed in Verses 19:13 and 15 does not work for me except as a reference to what Lord Jesus is going to do. Well, as far as the wine press goes, Rev 14:20 states: Some say that is about 200 square miles. But it is meant to let one think of the utter devastation of life and so much blood spilt. When I look at Joel, I think the ref. is quite clear. In Verse 1, in order to bring again the captivity of Israel, Jerusalem needs to be taken over. Once taken over, its people will be (verse 2) scattered among the nations once more and its land will be parted. Once Israel is taken, the Jews will be killed, raped and the survivors will be cast out. This is when the land will be parted. In Daniel 11:39, it details it: When we think to their future captivity, look at Psalm 14:7 We know after this last time of captivity, Israel will see Christ. When I look at placement, it is obvious to me that it is after the 4th Trumpet but before the 7th bowl. Still placement is hard. If the Jews need to go into captivity, Revelation should show it. Which I believe it does, but I will leave that to your studies =P
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