ally
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Post by ally on Mar 5, 2019 20:20:46 GMT -6
I am wondering how everybody feels about these artists/churches? I had heard some things, but then listened to this radio program from Jan Markel. Had a few Hillsong songs on my phone, then I re thought it after checking out some of the material the program referenced. thoughts? Worship Wars-link to part 1, Jan Markell Olive Tree Ministries
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Post by sog on Mar 5, 2019 21:53:12 GMT -6
I am wondering how everybody feels about these artists/churches? I had heard some things, but then listened to this radio program from Jan Markel. Had a few Hillsong songs on my phone, then I re thought it after checking out some of the material the program referenced. thoughts? Worship Wars-link to part 1, Jan Markell Olive Tree Ministries ally, Interesting topic. One new song that hasn’t sat right with me is Reckless Love. Maybe an artistically beautiful song, but I don’t find God’s love reckless at all. Just the opposite. I am starting to look at worship music with a more skeptical eye now. Is this part of Satans end time deceit? Very likely. Is it sound biblically? Does it mention Jesus or his sacrifice or just God in general terms to appeal to a secular audience. We should all take pause at songs that are labeled ‘Christian’ and truly look at the lyrics and the artist to see what is truth.
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Post by sawdy on Mar 5, 2019 22:16:16 GMT -6
I wholeheartedly agree with "Reckless" love. My daughter loves that song. ☹ The definition of reckless is: : marked by lack of proper caution : careless of consequences Wrong word choice or is the rest of the song questionable?
I was singing/listening to I just need you by TobyMac when I actually watched the video for it. Started to question who actually is the "Lord" that the song is talking about.
The reason I love older hymns is because you can't question who you are calling Lord. When you're singing a verse about dying on the cross, coming back from the dead, or looking forward to the throne room in heaven, it is pretty obvious as to who your Lord God is. The problem is that churches like the one I attend want to be more inclusive with their worship services and start to choose songs like Reckless love to sing during worship and limit hymns (or anything pre-2000) to two selections of the 7-8 songs chosen. ☹
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ally
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Post by ally on Mar 5, 2019 22:35:28 GMT -6
Yes, the song Reckless love is very popular......I agree, our Lord is Not reckless at all. I looked up youtube videos of some Hillsong concerts. If you google Hillsong naked cowboy, oh how it makes me grieved....Yes, I like some Tobymac, not all, but I've started to question everything
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ally
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Post by ally on Mar 5, 2019 22:57:55 GMT -6
Also, my church incorporates some of this music. What to think? One of the songs I liked was "who You Say I am"....but when you consider the source? It's very sly. Yes I am thinking the enemy is very crafty indeed
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Post by mike on Mar 6, 2019 6:46:10 GMT -6
Similar thoughts Ally & SOG. If it doesnt line up with the Word then its suspect no matter how "moved" we may "feel". Several of the Hillsongs numbers make me want to worship which is good, but when I recite some of the words, I'm left wondering. For example I am a firm believer that the Lord created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal days. In the song 100 billion years: " A hundred billion creatures catch Your breath Evolving in pursuit of what You said If it all reveals Your nature so will I" Houston, who is the eldest son of Hillsong Church's founders as well as lead musician in the worship band Hillsong United and worship leader of Hillsong Church in New York City, responded by saying:
"Evolution is undeniable—created by God as a reflective means of displaying nature's pattern of renewal in pursuance of God's Word—an ode to the nature of the creative God it reflects—and only ever in part—not the SOURCE! Science and faith aren't at odds. God created the Big-Bang."Link to article: www.christiantoday.com/article/hillsongs-joel-houston-clarifies-views-on-evolution-after-so-will-i-lyrics-spark-debate/129864.htmNow some Christians believe in the billions of years theory and the purpose is not to debate that. Its just that the statement made sounds as if this person (Houston) has actually certified that evolution is a fact and everyone should recognize it. His statement is purely based on what he's been told, incorporating secular humanism with Christianity. These are the people who influence others
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Post by Natalie on Mar 6, 2019 9:14:48 GMT -6
Our previous church started singing more and more Jesus Culture, Bethel, and Elevation music. The music also got louder. It became harder to worship. And forgot being able to hear the congregation singing. They started having Praise and Worship nights. Turn down the lights and earplugs were available. They told a friend of mine that the Worship nights were for an experience. I can't remember how they worded it exactly.
The music alone wasn't why we left, but it made me uncomfortable.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 6, 2019 9:51:17 GMT -6
I had listened to part 2 of Jan's show. There was one thing the guy said that I wish I had written down because now I don't remember it. But, I do think we need to consider where our music is coming from that we sing. Especially stuff that we are going to use for worshiping God. What God does their music point to? What Gospel do they preach? Because sometimes there is music at church that someone may go out and listen to other music by that group. And that music is catchy and then that theology gets into our head and influences what we believe. We go to a small Baptist church currently. Just a piano and organ, but the pastor says he is open to things like guitars as long as it doesn't become a performance. That's what it had become at the two previous churches I was at...performance and experience. We also sing hymns and what could be considered modern hymns (like stuff from the Getty's). Pastor commented that he is not against contemporary stuff but the lyrics have to be biblical and singable. If the congregation can't sing it then it's not really good for worship. And I agree with those who commented on the song with "reckless" in it. Another thing, at least in my experience, if you question the music you are told that if you don't like it then don't sing or just go elsewhere. That was also mentioned on Jan's show (part 2). Itching ears is evident.
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Post by fitz on Mar 6, 2019 19:14:45 GMT -6
Our previous church started singing more and more Jesus Culture, Bethel, and Elevation music. The music also got louder. It became harder to worship. And forgot being able to hear the congregation singing. They started having Praise and Worship nights. Turn down the lights and earplugs were available. They told a friend of mine that the Worship nights were for an experience. I can't remember how they worded it exactly. The music alone wasn't why we left, but it made me uncomfortable. Describes the last church I left to a T. I was on on the worship team and we were doing Jesus Culture, Elevation Worship, Crowder, etc. As a musician, I loved playing that music and I think the majority of it is "doctrinally" sound. Only a few songs raised an eyebrow, and I am well aware of the controversy surrounding Bethel and Hillsong. But I happen to think that the vast majority of CCM is genuine and created/performed by true believers, though on a personal level we may certainly differ on various points of doctrine. I understand how powerful music is, and I know many have been brought to Christ, helped through a tough time, or encouraged through many of these songs. However, I too began to worry about the dimly lit (dark) worship setting, lighting, experiential nature of it...obviously much like a rock concert. And the pastor would even say that this was the exact atmosphere he wanted to create, because it was seeker sensitive and welcoming to "pre-Christians". Well, it was when they asked me to play "Happy" (a popular secular song a few years ago) on Good Friday 2014, that I had to bail. I wasn't on the church worship team to play secular music to a bunch of non-believers. I could have easily joined a bar band if I had wanted to do that. The music thing has been hard for me to deal with. On the one hand, I think I was created to be a musician. If God gave me the ability, should I not use it to glorify Him? I played secular music for many years but eventually decided I would focus more on playing worship music and less for secular audiences. So beginning in 1995 I've played primarily in churches, and I did play in a Christian band that traveled for a while, too. Overall, it's been a wonderful thing...sharing Jesus through the gift He gave me! It's the best! But this debate has raged on for many years. Some say that guitars and drums have no place in worship, that we should keep singing 400 year old hymns and only with a piano accompaniment. Ok, those hymns are great, but 400 years ago, they were new music too. Did people question them at that time? Maybe not. I don't know. At any rate I haven't played at all in three years. I just gave up. No doubt the last church I went to was sliding down a slippery slope, and I couldn't go along with it. Still, I feel like I've buried my talent (Matthew 25: 14-30). I miss playing music, but I am also tired of fighting the perceptions some have that music with a modern sound can't glorify God. More so, I'm tired of trying to find a church that can do it in a way that honors God and truly facilitates inclusive worship rather than becoming a show and where worship leaders can bridle their ego and the spirit of pridefulness. It seems to be a very rare thing.
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Post by venge on Apr 1, 2019 8:14:02 GMT -6
I would like to comment on how I view music.
For me and my family, music should be Holy. Number 1! That doesn’t mean rock music and throw in some religious words. Is the music you listen to Holy. Not Good. Not Christian. Not uplifting. HOLY.
Does the music edify the congregation or does it edify God alone?
If unsaved walk in the church, do they hear spiritual songs or do they here music of the world with Christian lyrics? Stuff that sounds like what they already listen to.
Does the beat/melody take away from the substance?
Would Jesus sing to his Father what you sing?
Lastly, just because some Churches have it or do it, doesn’t make it good or edifying. Just like bad doctrine exists, bad worship exists as well.
For me, imo, I listen to psalms and hymns. I enjoy the ones written in our hymnal book even when I drive. I don’t listen to music that sounds like the world. Rap, rock, metal, whatever. I used to, just not anymore. I want to make sure what I put in is Holy and if ur not sure, it’s better to abstain.
Remember, he is the King, the great creator. Worship him in song but don’t worship the song itself.
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Post by davewatchman on Apr 26, 2019 18:41:07 GMT -6
I am wondering how everybody feels about these artists/churches? I had heard some things, but then listened to this radio program from Jan Markel. Had a few Hillsong songs on my phone, then I re thought it after checking out some of the material the program referenced. thoughts? Worship Wars-link to part 1, Jan Markell Olive Tree Ministries I don't think about them too much. I didn't even know about the Jesus Culture. I didn't know that they were an organization. I thought that it just meant the culture of Jesus. So i did a google on it. I found the same interview that you posted, but as an audio podcast type of thing. www.oneplace.com/ministries/understanding-the-times/listen/the-worship-wars-part-1-744534.htmlAs far as worship music, or Gospel music goes, i think it's like what Jesus said about there being the greatest and then the least in the kingdom of heaven. Not everyone can sing the song of Moses. I don't personally care for some of the long, repetitious sounding music that doesn't seem to get to the point very fast. But i also imagine that some of these can draw certain people into seeking out Christianity. God's true people should be smart enough, like Jan Markell and her guests, Eric Barger and Pastor Brandon Holthaus have identified the issue. I tend to be more like sawdy and favor the traditional Gospel that tends to stay based in solid Scripture. But my taste is more varied than most. I wonder sometimes, and ask myself, would Jesus like this??? I listen to whatever (i think) is good. I don't care if it comes from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, or from the soundtrack of the movie: "Brother where art thou. I think it's OK to enjoy up beat, happy and the hand clapping type of Gospel music. Gospel means good news right? I wasn't that big into the Bible when my Mom died. But i was driving her Neon one day after that and playing her MP3 music through the radio in the summer with the window down. I stop at this busy gas bar, but don't have the key turned off all the way. "Down to the river to pray", comes blaring out of the car speakers. People with their faces twisted around, you can tell right away who's team they are on. Then this one woman comes out of the store, hears the music, and stops right in her tracks. She just looks over and smiles from ear to ear. You gotta have a sense of humor sometimes. As I went down in the river to pray Studying about that good old way And who shall wear the robe and crown Good Lord, show me the way! Peaceful Sabbath.
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Post by bondservant on Feb 25, 2020 11:57:24 GMT -6
Similar thoughts Ally & SOG. If it doesnt line up with the Word then its suspect no matter how "moved" we may "feel". Several of the Hillsongs numbers make me want to worship which is good, but when I recite some of the words, I'm left wondering. For example I am a firm believer that the Lord created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal days. In the song 100 billion years: " A hundred billion creatures catch Your breath Evolving in pursuit of what You said If it all reveals Your nature so will I" Houston, who is the eldest son of Hillsong Church's founders as well as lead musician in the worship band Hillsong United and worship leader of Hillsong Church in New York City, responded by saying:
"Evolution is undeniable—created by God as a reflective means of displaying nature's pattern of renewal in pursuance of God's Word—an ode to the nature of the creative God it reflects—and only ever in part—not the SOURCE! Science and faith aren't at odds. God created the Big-Bang."Link to article: www.christiantoday.com/article/hillsongs-joel-houston-clarifies-views-on-evolution-after-so-will-i-lyrics-spark-debate/129864.htmNow some Christians believe in the billions of years theory and the purpose is not to debate that. Its just that the statement made sounds as if this person (Houston) has actually certified that evolution is a fact and everyone should recognize it. His statement is purely based on what he's been told, incorporating secular humanism with Christianity. These are the people who influence others I never really looked at the verse that way and it was my favorite song for a while.
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Post by matthew2423 on Feb 26, 2020 7:57:57 GMT -6
Hello,
I love contemporary Christian music, and it sometimes drives my dad nuts with how much I like to listen to it and how I absolutely have to listen to it in the car with him. However, as far as churches adopting newer worship goes, my church almost had a similar experience to some of you. We have four services every Sunday, two traditional services at 8:15 and 11:00, a contemporary service at 9:30, and a modern service at 11:15. The service that I usually go to, the contemporary at 9:30, started to incorporate elements of modern worship that’s in the 11:15 service. They had bright lights, loud music, all of the trimmings. However, due to my autism which causes noise and light sensitivity, they stopped doing the big lights and loud music, and resumed the usual contemporary service at the usual level of noise and light level. It was also partly due to my grandfather petitioning the elders and deacons of our church to stop making the services centered on a concert rather than worship of the Lord. Thankfully, our church’s worship minister is one of my friends, and he really wanted me to stay in the service rather than having to constantly go out into the church lobby to prevent me from getting massive headaches due to the lights, and from me covering my ears due to the noise. Mom tried to tell the church that they didn’t have to tailor the service only to me, but we found out from one of our friends that sit in our row and other people that the lights were giving them headaches too, so I wasn’t the only one.
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Post by Gary on Feb 27, 2020 13:05:09 GMT -6
As with most things, it's a matter of balance, moderation, and discernment to me. There are some really theologically-rich songs from Hillsong, Bethel, Jesus Culture, etc. There are also some shallow, pop, man-centric songs. I take the good and leave the bad. Few churches are perfectly balanced, with most either gravitating toward legalism on one extreme or lawlessness on the other, which I've written a bunch of articles on. In the Psalms we hear about literally shouting praises to God and using every instrument available to do it. Elsewhere we read about dancing with abandonment before God.
I think when we focus on the external things (loud vs. quiet music, instruments vs. acapella, laser lights vs. candles) we can miss the deeper questions, because none of these things are moral issues. The Church has always been creative with worship and ritual, and those things have evolved and changed over time, and vary widely from denomination to denomination and country to country. The questions that matter are:
1. Are the lyrics and words being shared based on sound doctrine?
2. Are the worshipers acting with holy demeanor? The naked cowboy was definitely not appropriate, and in fact a mockery of God.
3. Is the worship drawing the worshipers closer to God and deepening faith, or counteracting it?
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Post by Natalie on Feb 27, 2020 13:30:05 GMT -6
Those are good questions.
One other question I have ... By supporting a group am I indirectly supporting a church that has a false gospel? (Giving them money or a platform to reach -deceive- more people)
One example from my life... Some, including the pastor, in my previous church attended a conference that included a session by TD Jakes. They knew the teachings he holds to and went anyway, ( by their tickets) giving him money to use to reach more people. Maybe everything he talked about that day was sound, but his basic theology is not, and he influences many.
It is probably not possible to research every artist/musician but when a church starts using a certain group or two for the majority of the music, I think it's wise to see if the group is affiliated with a church. If it is, what is their doctrine like? Because it will come out in the music.
There is so much good music out there that we do not need to sing songs from problematic places.
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