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Post by kjs on Apr 17, 2019 8:54:03 GMT -6
What exactly transpired after the first 7 weeks? Anyone? 25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times. 26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah
Is it what I bolded? Was the city rebuilt in whatever year that equates to? Most people (like Chuck Missler -- and I) equate the first 7 weeks (49 years) to completing the repairs to the walls around Jerusalem -- as well as the "First Portion" of the Second Temple.
Many, may not know this but "Herod" did NOT create the Second Temple -- He was only Remolding (and enlarging) the existing Second Temple into His version of what it should look like.....
Some history.... The time of the Second Temple is divided into different periods: the Persian period (586-332 BC); the Hellenistic period (332-63 BC); and the Roman period (63 BC-AD 324). In 37 BC, King Herod enlarged the Temple Mount and rebuilt the temple with the consent of the public.
The Key was the rebuilding of the Wall....
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Post by kjs on Apr 17, 2019 9:52:15 GMT -6
SEE this thread for a crazy look about some translations I never knew about....
OLD GREEK version
24 “Seventy weeks have been decided for your people and for the city, Sion: for sin to be con-summated and to make iniquities scarce and to blot out iniquities and to comprehend the vision and for everlasting righteousness to be given and for the vision to be consummated and to gladden a holy of holies. 25And you shall understand and will rejoice and will discover ordinances to re-spond, and you will build Ierousalem as a city for the Lord. 26And after seven and seventy and sixty-two weeks, an anointing will be removed and willnot be. And a king of nations will demolish the city and the sanctuary along with the anointed one, and his consummation will come with wrath even until the time of consummation. He will be attacked through war. 27And the covenant will pre-vail for many, and it will return again and be re-built broad and long. And at the consummation of times [even after seven years and seventy times and sixty-two times] [until the time of the consumma-tion of the war even desolation will be removed][when the covenant prevails for many weeks]. And in half of the week the sacrifice and the libation will cease, and in the temple there will be an abomination of desolations until the consumma-tion of a season, and a consummation will be given for the desolation.
THEODOTION version
24 “Seventy weeks have been cut short for your people and for the holy city: for sin to be consum-mated and to seal sins and to atone for iniquities and to bring everlasting righteousness and to seal vision and prophet and to anoint a holy of holies. 25And you shall know and shall understand: from the going forth of the word to respond to and to rebuild Ierousalem until an anointed leader, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, and it (c) will return, and streets and a wall will be built, and the seasons will be emptied out. 26And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointing will be destroyed,and there is no judgment in it. And it (c) will destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the leader who is to come. And they will be cut off by a flood,and there will be annihilation to the finish of a shortened war. 27And it (d) will strengthen a covenant with many, one week, and by half of the week sacrifice and libation will cease, and in the temple there will be an abomination of desola-tions even until a consummation, and a consum-mation will be given for the desolation.”
a=Possibly our compassion b=Or mercy for me c=Or he,antecedent unclear d=Antecedent unclear
An Anointing -- "expresses the sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit" -- Jewish practices refer to anointing Kings, Prophets, Priest -- all indicating they were touched by God -- so in the above case it means a person who is touched by God.
Surprising not much different that what we already see ... the old Greek seems to have more references to dates -- but pretty much says the same thing........
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Post by Natalie on Apr 17, 2019 10:45:22 GMT -6
What exactly transpired after the first 7 weeks? Anyone? 25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times. 26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah
Is it what I bolded? Was the city rebuilt in whatever year that equates to? Here is what one commentary I have says: "The first period of 49 years may refer to the time in which the rebuilding of the city of Jerusalem, permitted by Artexerxes' decree, was completed (444-395 BC). Though Nehemiah's wall construction took only 52 days, many years may have been needed to remove the city's debris (after being desolate for many decades) to build adequate housing, and to rebuild the streets and a trench." (pg 1363 The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck)
Wiersbe in his commentary says similar. The decree was given in 444 by Artexerxes authorizing Nehemiah to go to Jerusalem and rebuild (seen in Neh 2:5-8)
And reading Ezra and Nehemiah we see that it was troubling times for them. They were returning from captivity to find their beloved Jerusalem in a ruined state. Those around them mocked them and tried to stop things (Neh 4-6)
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Post by Natalie on Apr 17, 2019 10:52:20 GMT -6
I also found this: (I have not poked around the website so I cannot vouch for what else it teaches) In the quote above, the source for (2) is John MacArthur and the source for (3) is The Coming Prince by Sir Robert Anderson p.128.
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jp
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Post by jp on Apr 17, 2019 11:08:30 GMT -6
My rights are given to me from the Almighty, and they are protected by the Constitution. From my experience, people who fear public scrutiny and need to censor it, their ideas can not stand up to public scrutiny, so they have to censor it, or DECEIVE. 1. If you think that just because a text says something in the English, then that is what "the text actually says," you are very immature in your walk, and me trying to shine light on a misinterpretation is like an adult trying to discuss politics with a child. 2. If you can not add 2+2 and see that the 70 ends with the cutting off (reaping) of his people, THE ANOINTED, and then comes the antichrist AFTER the 70 weeks, and it is another week, then what is there for me to say. Scripture confirms over and over and over again this understanding of the sequence, but some people just do not care about facts or evidence. Take for instance the Messiah, He taught Truth and accompanied it with signs and wonders, yet many did not listen or believe. You are no different then the Pharisees. You make up idiotic rules to burden our free speech, and then you do not recognize the Messiah and His Truth when it is staring you in the face. jp -- this is your second warning.
You can disagree with me or anyone else on this thread all you wish .... However, when you start stating that "I Have a very immature walk" and "that I am a child in my thinking process" -- You have crossed the line from disagreement and moved into character attacks.
Character attacks are not tolerated here.
You are incorrect that you have rights on any website -- that you do not own. You must follow the rules OR you are banned. There are Many, Many websites with this same policy -- follow the rules.
I also asked you to PROVE with Scripture that the 70th Week prophecy had change to 71 (or more weeks) ... instead you attack my character -- rather than my logic.
It appears that if you cannot logically defend your position with scripture -- you simply resort to character attacks (this past post gave three character attacks)....
Please, this website is for learning ... give your opinion, back it up with scripture, be willing to learn different approaches .....
NO ONE here on earth right now holds all the answers -- be willing to concede your current understanding may have a flaw.
You are misconstruing what I am saying. I am not saying the 70th week changed to 71. I am saying the 70th week that is decreed for "your people" is finished when "your people" are removed/cut off. The old Greek Septuagent tells us that the anointed are cut off after the 7 weeks of 70 aka the 70 weeks. The end of the 70th week begins (transition to 71st week) the completion of the desolations aka the consummation of judgment being carried out on the fallen angels, which is the 7 years of wrath aka the 71st week. The 71st week is NOT for "your people," because "your people" are not destined to wrath (1 Thess 5:9), but are rescued from wrath (1 Thess 1:10) aka cut off/reaped/harvested/raptured prior to the 71st. First thing I will have to establish to you is who "your people" is. When the Almighty sets a precedent in Scripture, it is usually always followed. A perfect example is in Exodus 34 He refers to a Harlot as something that is idolatrous. Then in the end of the Scripture at Revelation, babylon the great is the mother of harlots, because they take the MARK and worship the beasts aka idolatrous. When a precedent is set, it is safe to say, that is what it means after that setting point. If you research Daniel, you will find that the chapters are not in order. Chapter 10 is in the 3rd year of Cyrus approx 556BC. This is the 1st vision he receives, and chapters 7, 8, 9 expound on it AFTER. You can deduce that it is his 1st vision by how troubled he is. He sees apollyon come out of the abyss with its centaurian army and conquer Jerusalem and the area of Judea with ease, and it terrifies him. Then chapter 12 is a continuation of chapter 10. If you read it in proper order, you should be able to understand that they are connected. In chapter 10 he is on the river back, and Gabriel says in the last verse that he is going to "shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth." Then he does the shewing in chapter 12 on the river bank. Verse 1 of chapter 12 sets the precedent of who "your people" is: "at THAT TIME your people, everyone who is found written in the book, WILL BE RESCUED." The precedent is set in chapter 12 that your people is those who are written in the book of life. ONLY believers are written in the book of life. The precedent is also set that they will be RESCUED. They are rescued by being cut off, which is a phrase in the Hebrew that points to fruit being cut off from the earth aka a harvest (raptured). Then later on in verse 11 we see the SAME event of the rescue/cut off. "And from the time that the daily sacrifice (believers are living sacrifices) shall be TAKEN AWAY (cut off), and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1290 days." This verse also confirms the sequence. The 1290 days is the 1st half of the week/wrath aka the Trumpets (wrath of the Lamb) AFTER the daily sacrifice is removed/rescued. The narrative that Gabriel is telling Daniel is this: 1. 70 weeks are decreed for YOUR PEOPLE Daniel, the anointed, Spiritual Israel, those whose names are written in the book of life. 2. Start the counting of the 70 weeks from when the issuing of the decree to restore the walls is acted upon (construction starts) and the calling again of the people (1536AD-Suileman). 3. Understand this, after 69 weeks (start of 70th week) there will be an anointed ruler. *In Isaiah 45:1 the Almighty calls Cyrus His Masiah that He holds/leads by the right hand. This is the same word in Daniel 9:26 (Hebrew 4899) it means anointed, not the actual Messiah* 4. After 62 weeks the streets shall be built again (old city 1970) and the broad wall found. 5. After the 7 weeks of 70 (70 weeks), the anointed will be cut off (rescued), but not the city and sanctuary. 6. The ruler (apollyon) and his people (centaurs) shall come and destroy (trample) the city and sanctuary (with ease, not peace). 7. The end of its destruction will be with a flood (Rev 12:15) until the desolations are completed. 8. The ruler (fallen angel azazel = apollyon) shall confirm an alliance with the strong (rebel angels thrown down/dragon/10 horns) to rule over the many (humans) for 1 week. (this must be deduced, it is not written out in plain English. The 70 weeks have already been completed, because the anointed were cut off/reaped/harvested/rescued/gathered into the clouds, etc. in verse 26, and the BEAST is not on the scene until after the anointed are removed, and this removal before the release of the BEASTS is confirmed multiple times in Scripture, thus the next week after the 70 is the 71st week) The end of the 70th week ends the time of believers and begins the time of the wrath, which is the death sentence being carried out on the fallen angels of Eden. 9. In the middle of the week, the beasts shall set up the MARK, and cause the sacrifice (144,000) and the oblation (their seed aka NEW believers that receive their testimony) to be KILLED (for refusing the MARK) 10. The beasts shall force (enslave) the humans to take their MARK and make them desolate, until the consummation of the beasts judgment is completed, and the bowls of wrath poured out on the desolate (babylon the great) This timeline is confirmed over and over again in Scripture, and though the English is hard to decipher, it is able to be seen when you keep digging into the Hebrew/Greek and compare other Scripture. So chapter 10+12 are 556 BC, then the next in order is chapter 7 at approx 553BC, then 8 at 550BC, and then 9 at 522BC. The precedent is set in chapter 12 that "your people" is the anointed aka Christians, and the precedent in chapter 12 is also set for "seal up." "Seal up" means it is for the end-time, not for when the Messiah was here the 1st time. Here are some Scriptures that confirm the sequence of the 70th week aka the 7 years of the trial (Seals) and the 7 years of wrath (3.5 trumpets + 3.5 bowls) Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 are all the Messiah telling us the Seals many years in advance to Revelation 6. After the 6th Seal, the LAST TRUMP is sounded and the dead and those that REMAIN are caught up, then the beasts are released in the 5th and 6th Trumpets. The LAST TRUMP is a war preparation. The Messiah is gathering His people into New Jerusalem to secure them prior to executing the war in heaven, which is Trumpets 1-4. Believers are removed after the 70th week, and the beasts are released at the beginning of the 71st. 2 Thess 2 also confirms this sequence. Apostasia in the Greek is a departure. Paul is saying that the believers are deserting earth at the day of redemption (7th Seal) and it comes before the beasts are released. It is not an apostasy from faith. There are 2 different sacrifices in Daniel. There is the daily sacrifice being removed (7th Seal rapture/day of redemption) and there is the sacrifice being put to a stop by the beasts, and this is the 144,000 being killed for refusing the MARK at the end of their 1260. The 1290, 1260, and 42 all end when the MARK is set up. Then the next 45 days is the GREAT TRIBULATION until the 1335. The BLESSED in Daniel 12:12 is the same BLESSED in Rev 14:13, which is a picture of the final rapture/harvest of the NEW believers that receive the testimony of the 144,000, and that rapture is seen in Rev 14:13-16, and then they are seen in Rev 15:2 at the throne (result of the 4th rapture). I am an adult and have very little free time. If you do not agree with what I am presenting, then I will have to agree to disagree.
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Post by venge on Apr 17, 2019 15:03:42 GMT -6
6. Finally, the purpose of the prophecy is explicitly given (v. 24) for Daniel's people (the Jews) and his city (Jerusalem).
Just wanted to touch on this statement. Who is a Jew but one inward. Whose people is Daniel's? We are. Are we not of the same seed as he? The seed of Abraham and if seed to Abraham then part of the promise? Jerusalem is not physical Jerusalem but spiritual Jerusalem. The city of Peace. Which comes down out of heaven. If the Lord searches the hearts and the heart defines who is a Jew inwardly and we be Abrahams seed and heirs, then we are Daniel's people and the Holy city is given to those in Christ and God. Its is the same people. Not a bloodline but the spirit.
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Post by kjs on Apr 17, 2019 15:46:50 GMT -6
jp says.... 1. 70 weeks are decreed for YOUR PEOPLE Daniel, the anointed, Spiritual Israel, those whose names are written in the book of life.
Really where did you get that idea – you are not told that specifically in scripture – you are adding your own bias thoughts to the process. Here is what the text actually says….. 24 Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city, to finish disobedience, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy. NOTICE it says “on your people and on your holy city” – that tells us it is NOT Spiritual Israel – but the real every day ordinary people of Israel --- AT THE TIME of the WEEKS (at least 69 of them) AND the CITY...
2. Start the counting of the 70 weeks from when the issuing of the decree to restore the walls is acted upon (construction starts) and the calling again of the people (1536AD-Suileman).Again match it with scripture 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One,[c] the prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times. { [c] Daniel 9:25 “Anointed One” can also be translated “Messiah” (same as “Christ”). }
The building of the TEMPLE as well as the WALLS around Jerusalem … come straight out of the Bible. Most of the rebuilding starts under Cyrus (according to Ezra ) Ezra 3 depicts the beginning of the restoration, with the building of the altar and setting the temple foundations. According to Ezra 4, however, enemies interfered by reporting to the Persian king that the builders were a rebellious people. In B ook of Nehemiah we learn that Ezra was not completely successful so In the 20th year of Artaxerxes, king of Persia, (445/444 BC), Nehemiah was cup-bearer to the king.[5] Learning that the remnant of Jews in Judah were in distress and that the walls of Jerusalem were broken down, he asked the king for permission to return and rebuild the city.[6] Artaxerxes sent him to Judah as governor of the province with a mission to rebuild, letters explaining his support for the venture, and provision for timber from the king's forest It was the decree with Artaxerxes that “kicked off” Gabriel’s prophecy. And “where the count” actually started.
Notice I gave scripture to back up my points….. You simply “proclaimed it in one of your statements”….. Let the Bible speak for itself … You do not need re-interrupt it. I stopped going through your proclamation list line by line because you are not allowing scripture to speak for itself….. You proclaim something as fact … but never prove it.
For the record -- all of us are adults here ... and really are not on this site 24/7 -- Most Like I visit in the morning and in the evening when I have time.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 17, 2019 16:02:15 GMT -6
Venge- Do you think Spiritual Israel replaced Physical Israel? Or do you see a separate plan for each?
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Post by venge on Apr 17, 2019 16:50:31 GMT -6
Venge- Do you think Spiritual Israel replaced Physical Israel? Or do you see a separate plan for each? That is a hard question Natalie..but a good one. I guess I view it like this. Spiritual Israel is anyone Jewish inside or by blood that enters into the Kingdom. This is what God wanted. I hear people say the bride is the Church and we can say that but truth be told, the bride is those in Christ that follow the commandments of God. There are many Churches and many beliefs but that 1 fact holds true regardless. So, I think Spiritual Israel already exists today in God's elect. It was what Physical Israel was supposed to be. But we are grafted together. I would probably say yes, spiritual Israel replaces physical Israel. That is not to say physical Israel cannot be grafted with spiritual Israel. As all things pertain to the spirit and not the flesh. To see a separate plan, I don't know yet. It is hard. The reason is that should only Jews be punished? They are part of the wicked just as the heathen, they reject Christ. True believers do not. But some that believe will reject him and will be cast into utter darkness. So the plan you mention, I suppose I don't see a sperate plan per se, but one could exist. It is a difficult question to answer tbh. I hadn't considered it the way your questioned it before lol. I will give it more thought. Ok I think you just blew my brain for the day. Normally scripture flows thru me but I cant think of any verses atm.
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Post by mike on Apr 17, 2019 19:00:42 GMT -6
Aside from a little brotherly disagreement, the content of this thread has been very thought provoking for me folks. I appreciate what's been presented here. Great stuff venge! And before anyone goes yelling "replacement theology" I didn't read it that way. I'll go on a limb and say both can't be true at the same time? I mean God told Moses to build the Tabernacle like the one he saw. Isn't everything on Earth patterned after that which is in heaven?
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jp
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Post by jp on Apr 17, 2019 19:02:28 GMT -6
I totally agree with you Venge. Romans 11:23 settles it. The only way a person of the bloodline of Jacob/Israel can be grafted back in is by believing. The Messiah makes it clear when He told them who His "mother and brothers" are, and He pointed to His disciples and said "he who does the WILL of My Father is my mother and brothers." Then He also confirmed it by referring to the time of when the beasts are released in Matt24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. He just says the people living in Judea. If He considered those people living in Judea His family, He would have said My people, or My brethtren living in Judea, but He just gives the people in Judea a heads up to FLEE when the beasts are released.
I do believe that the end-time State of Israel is a physical sign of the final generation. "A nation born in a day." The Almighty uses the term born on purpose, because it is a term to show us that the 70 year generation was birthed then. Then when we match Psalm 90 to Rev 12, we can see that the final appointed time of the end is 14 years, not 7.
Psalm 90:10 70 years = the generation 71-80 = the hard times = 7 years of the Trial/Seals and 3.5 years of Trumpets Then we fly away = 144,000 being raptured up in Rev 11:12 = Rev 12:14 = the 3rd rapture = they fly away, because the MARK is set up and they refuse it and the 1260 ends Then they are in New Jerusalem as seen in Rev 14:1-5, which is a fulfillment of the promise in Rev 11:18 and they are away from the presence of the beasts for a time, time, and half time (3.5 years). 10.5+3.5=total of 14 years=7 years of the Trial/Seals and 7 years of wrath/3.5 Trumpets+3.5 Bowls
The 144,000 are the 2 witnesses of Rev 11, and they were spiritually conceived on 9/23/2017 with the Rev 12 sign. Then 9 years later (pregnancy) they will be birthed on the day of redemption (7th Seal) 2026 from among believers, because they are believers with DNA from Jacob.
Rev 12 is a timeline of the 144,000.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 17, 2019 19:29:08 GMT -6
venge- Thanks for your answer. Just from what I know of you, I know that you will give it more thought. I see two plans. One for physical Israel that will lead to many being grafted back in, to become Jews inwardly as well as outwardly. That's why I see physical Israel in Daniel 9. God's not done with His chosen nation. He has many promises left for them; however, only after they are grafted back in, which will be completed after Daniel's 70th week "Jacob's Trouble" whatever you want to call it. But I also see a separate plan for the church (and by "church" I mean all true believers). The church right now is being grafted into the spiritual promises for Israel (salvation by faith through the Offspring promised to Abraham, Galatians 3:14), not the physical promises (like the 70 weeks, the land promises, the bountiful physical blessings of the millennial kingdom, stuff like that). We are Jews spiritually so we only receive the spiritual blessings. But the church must be taken out of the way so that God can discipline Israel and bring them to repentance, graft them back in, and fulfill His spiritual and physical promises. Jeremiah 30:11 "For I am with you to save you, declares the LORD; I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you, but of you I will not make a full end. I will discipline you in just measure, and I will by no means leave you unpunished." So, no not only Jews are punished, but every nation where they had been scattered will also be punished. And you and I both agree that true believers will not be punished; they are removed from that time. That's how I see it anyway.
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Post by kjs on Apr 18, 2019 8:57:26 GMT -6
venge - Thanks for your answer. Just from what I know of you, I know that you will give it more thought. I see two plans. One for physical Israel that will lead to many being grafted back in, to become Jews inwardly as well as outwardly. That's why I see physical Israel in Daniel 9. God's not done with His chosen nation. He has many promises left for them; however, only after they are grafted back in, which will be completed after Daniel's 70th week "Jacob's Trouble" whatever you want to call it. But I also see a separate plan for the church (and by "church" I mean all true believers). The church right now is being grafted into the spiritual promises for Israel (salvation by faith through the Offspring promised to Abraham, Galatians 3:14), not the physical promises (like the 70 weeks, the land promises, the bountiful physical blessings of the millennial kingdom, stuff like that). We are Jews spiritually so we only receive the spiritual blessings. But the church must be taken out of the way so that God can discipline Israel and bring them to repentance, graft them back in, and fulfill His spiritual and physical promises. Jeremiah 30:11 "For I am with you to save you, declares the LORD; I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you, but of you I will not make a full end. I will discipline you in just measure, and I will by no means leave you unpunished." So, no not only Jews are punished, but every nation where they had been scattered will also be punished. And you and I both agree that true believers will not be punished; they are removed from that time. That's how I see it anyway.
I believe you are spot on Natalie .... (and the primary reason I fall within the Dispensationalism Camp)
I clearly see God dealing with us humans in different ways at different points of time -- Probably the clearest example given by Apostle Paul is in...
Ephesians 3: "For this cause I, Paul, am the prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles, 2 if it is so that you have heard of the administration of that grace of God which was given me toward you; 3 how that by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I wrote before in few words, 4 by which, when you read, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ; 5 which in other generations was not made known to the children of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of his promise in Christ Jesus through the Good News, 7 of which I was made a servant, according to the gift of that grace of God which was given me according to the working of his power. 8 To me, the very least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;..." (WEB)
Here we can see administration is defined "as the action of dispensing, giving, or applying something."
In the scripture above (for the first administration) Paul is "dispensing" or "revealing" the mystery that was given to him -- that Gentiles are now included within the family of God.... the second administration shows that this mystery was Secret in Ages Past but is now being revealed.
The point being made here (BY Paul) is that in "AGES PAST" this mystery was HIDDEN -- but now (this time period of Grace) -- it has been REVEALED (and proclaimed)
IN MY OPINION -- that is one of the KEYS to understanding the entire 70th Week -- which administration (or dispensation ) is this prophecy referring too.....
Since the first part clearly refers to Jerusalem and the people of Israel -- through the 69th week (or 483 years) -- logically it stands to reason the last Seven Years Also applies to that group as well.....
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Post by venge on Apr 18, 2019 11:13:32 GMT -6
venge - Thanks for your answer. Just from what I know of you, I know that you will give it more thought. I see two plans. One for physical Israel that will lead to many being grafted back in, to become Jews inwardly as well as outwardly. That's why I see physical Israel in Daniel 9. God's not done with His chosen nation. He has many promises left for them; however, only after they are grafted back in, which will be completed after Daniel's 70th week "Jacob's Trouble" whatever you want to call it. But I also see a separate plan for the church (and by "church" I mean all true believers). The church right now is being grafted into the spiritual promises for Israel (salvation by faith through the Offspring promised to Abraham, Galatians 3:14), not the physical promises (like the 70 weeks, the land promises, the bountiful physical blessings of the millennial kingdom, stuff like that). We are Jews spiritually so we only receive the spiritual blessings. But the church must be taken out of the way so that God can discipline Israel and bring them to repentance, graft them back in, and fulfill His spiritual and physical promises. Jeremiah 30:11 "For I am with you to save you, declares the LORD; I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you, but of you I will not make a full end. I will discipline you in just measure, and I will by no means leave you unpunished." So, no not only Jews are punished, but every nation where they had been scattered will also be punished. And you and I both agree that true believers will not be punished; they are removed from that time. That's how I see it anyway. I understand your opinion and you put forth good reasoning behind it. I can see a plan for the Jews as not being finished only because we have the AC set up there in Dan 11:45. Well, that is one reason anyway. But I don't follow the second part of what you said: Israel will be punished as they always have been in times past, and the body of Christ will be removed from his wrath. The issue I have with that sentence, I suppose, is my understanding of it. I see the body of Christ witnessing to them before the wrath is poured out. Allowing some to be redeemed before the wrath and others left, after the wrath. The ones after would be those that are cast out of Jerusalem and return to reclaim their land and the other lands east of them. I'm not going to go into it much here, but in my study, I see Israel being surrounded by nations at the end of the Trumpets which would back up the 7th trumpet rapture, Dan 11:45 when he pitches his tent, Ezekiel 38:18 and Rev 16:16-21. It would allow us to minister to them.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 18, 2019 17:21:33 GMT -6
about the church being taken out of the way - my understanding - God has placed a partial hardening on the Jews because they had hardened their hearts and shut their eyes and ears (Acts 28:27-28), a veil remains over their hearts when they read the OT (2 Cor 3:14-16) (but it can be removed), this will last until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (Rom 11:25). I see the "time of the Gentiles" as being the time of the church age. When the church age is over, the rapture takes place, and God finishes Israel's history. I think many will come to faith in Him through the 2 witnesses and the 144,000, plus seeing God do mighty things (Rev tells us people know that God is responsible). Kind of like OT times when He used prophets-- the church isn't necessary to witness and minister to the Jews during "Jacob's Trouble".
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