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Post by venge on Nov 13, 2019 5:42:21 GMT -6
venge - of course they were! They studied the scripture and Genesis clearly tells us in 1:14 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Mike, With all due respect, that verse does not answer my question. The question was: Were the disciples or the early church taught to look at the sun, moon, equinoxes etc where we find scripture of them telling us to do so? I’m looking for scripture that shows the early church instructed their followers to look at these things for reasons X, Y and Z. Where is that in the NT or early church writings? If they were taught to believers after Christ died and rose, I’d like to see what they said and what they thought. If they did not teach it, I will abstain because it’s better to abstain from food that may or may not be tainted so that there is no unclean thing that enters within.
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Post by venge on Nov 13, 2019 5:56:11 GMT -6
venge - of course they were! They studied the scripture and Genesis clearly tells us in 1:14 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: I think the key here is that they were looking at the stars, sun, moon, et c; but where they got in trouble (gnostics?) is when they did so in lieu of the scriptures, or without checking against the scriptures. These situations are where people get into trouble with astrology, rather than astronomy. By the link inserted, it appears astronomers aren’t looking at objects in space to unfold future events which is what some do here. That is astrology. images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrJ6wrY7stdktQA1BWInIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIydGZjYzJuBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANjNTM0OWMyZDc2MTg4ZjM3ZmYzNTE2ZWRjODQ0NDRhOQRncG9zAzIEaXQDYmluZw--?back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dastonimy%2Bvs%2Bastrology%26fr%3Diphone%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D2&w=790&h=957&imgurl=pediaa.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F01%2FDifference-Between-Astronomy-and-Astrology-infographic.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpediaa.com%2Fdifference-between-astronomy-and-astrology%2F&size=184.2KB&name=Difference+Between+Astronomy+and&p=astronomy+vs+astrology&oid=c5349c2d76188f37ff3516edc84444a9&fr2=piv-web&fr=iphone&rw=astronomy+vs+astrology&tt=Difference+Between+Astronomy+and&b=0&ni=21&no=2&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11tbalf33&sigb=13cci8j91&sigi=130rbe137&sigt=110n3o96n&sign=110n3o96n&.crumb=IkBPQHDI7a.&fr=iphone&fr2=piv-web
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 13, 2019 6:03:24 GMT -6
For others not so familiar with the Hebrew calendar and leap months, there are 7 leap months every nineteen years. But at first, its really confusing, how to know when a leap month should be added. Thus the Metonic cycle. For anyone else that's a visual learner, this really made it click, and it's also incredible how this fits perfectly on a music scale. I'd really love for someone else to explain that connection, because I'm sure that wasn't by coincidence. Metonic cycle.gif Metonic cycle.gif [*I forgot to explain the numbers are years. Start at C on the left . Each 3 years is a whole step. Then a leap month. C to D =3 years. D to E - whole step, 3 years then 1 leap month. Half step - E to F is 2 years, then leap month.] It's interesting that since God's appointed times are based on a Lunar calendar, all the feasts are tied to full moons, new moons, or a short day count from these - 10 days/ 7 days. I have been working on a study for this and I believe you just gave me a piece of the puzzle. I am so excited!!
*Edited to try to add the picturesHey Bond, I'm very interested in the study on the Metonic cycle. I private messaged you my email address. Please send me a copy. Cheers
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Post by mike on Nov 13, 2019 6:27:04 GMT -6
venge - of course they were! They studied the scripture and Genesis clearly tells us in 1:14 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Mike, With all due respect, that verse does not answer my question. The question was: Were the disciples or the early church taught to look at the sun, moon, equinoxes etc where we find scripture of them telling us to do so? I’m looking for scripture that shows the early church instructed their followers to look at these things for reasons X, Y and Z. Where is that in the NT or early church writings? If they were taught to believers after Christ died and rose, I’d like to see what they said and what they thought. If they did not teach it, I will abstain because it’s better to abstain from food that may or may not be tainted so that there is no unclean thing that enters within. Venge - we do understand that the Apostle Paul (as well as Apollos) were very learned in scripture correct? I'd venture to say much more so than me and likely you. My previous point was yes they were instructed right there is Genesis 1, and as such would have understood what the Lord said from the beginning. The very calendar followed by Jesus, Paul and all the others was followed for feasts, established by the lunar calendar. Acts 22:3 - "...yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers,..." Gal 1:14 - "And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers." Acts 18:24 - "And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord;"I understand you perspective is different from mine brother but here is how I see it: Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Jesus said there would be signs in the sun, moon & stars AND on the earth distress of nations. There is a distinction between the heavenly bodies and what takes place on the planet. The greek for signs here is sémeion meaning a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token - interesting in that the word also means miracle. A miracle is defined as a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency. "the miracle of rising from the grave"[the greek for sun is helios, which means....SUN. The greek for moon is selene, which means.... MOON and the greek for stars is astron, which means....take a guess bro ] In addition Revelation 12:1-3, 15:1 mention signs in the heavens - if there are signs for us in the bible and God defines what they are, why shouldnt we look for them? (rhetorical) We've had this dialogue before and I get your position on it. The above does not require a reply.
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Post by mike on Nov 13, 2019 6:32:25 GMT -6
Venge - So I am to take a chart some yahoo posted on Yahoo comparing the definition of the two to mean I study astrology? Please stop - you wont be convinced that the planets and stars God put in place, and also names in scripture (Job 9:9) are there for us to recognize His creative majesty. These things have been perverted by the enemy as have ALL other things the Lord made. Neither will I be convinced I study astrology! I do not worship the stars, nor follow them for guidance in my life and you even making that connection is upsetting to me. After conversing with you for how long and you say that I and others are into astrology. Please dont post on the topic in the future as your accusations only bring division
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Post by venge on Nov 13, 2019 8:38:48 GMT -6
mikeI appreciate your link to Luke in the previous post. Is there any other scripture in the NT that the elders taught regarding this? I would like to gather all taught NT scripture and look into it deeper. Appreciate any help. The last post above is not meant to deter. We should always be able to defend beliefs if true. You are correct though, anyone can make an image. That doesn’t make the image sound. I recognize that and equally appreciate your response. In the future, I may make a thread on the topic so I will not comment more on that in this one. I would like to continue the search for scripture above, linked to the title of the thread in NT scripture.
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Post by bondservant on Nov 13, 2019 9:22:03 GMT -6
1 Corinthians 15:41-42 was the only place I found where Paul mentions all three but this (1 Corinthians 3:4-10 ) came to mind when you mentioned Paul as I would ask the question: Is there scripture of Jesus saying to look after a sign in the sky? 1 Corinthians 15:41-42 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 3:4-10 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? 5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. I 100% agree with the statement that barbiosheepgirl made: "BUT I am not here to change your mind. For some reason the Lord has you in a wall against Gen 1:14.. I have faith that there is a reason for this. Perhaps to keep some of us grounded from the idols of star search"bondservant, The scripture you provided does not ask us to look for a sign in the sky. The first one posted relates luminaries and their roles. It was to explain the following verses about our earthly and spiritual bodies. It was not speaking of signs. Imo, The second scripture explained the process of man’s role and God’s in a man’s life in sanctification and soul winning. Perhaps I’m not understanding how you saw these. I’m not challenging you to find something to prove you wrong. Perhaps that was not made clear. I’m not familiar with Paul saying or eluding to Christ, that specifies a need or commandment that a Christian should look to the sky (planets) for a sign and that fundamental need or command was practiced by the original church documented by Eusebius, Paul, Peter, John, Polycarp or many others. If it exists in the context I wrote, can you provide adequate scripture or testimony from early church father manuscripts? Venge, I left my response open ended for a reason. I asked the question "Is there scripture of Jesus saying to look after a sign in the sky?" I posted 1 Corinthians 3:4-10 because it felt like our conversation was how it might have sounded to Paul had he heard it. I could be wrong but it is just what came to my mind when you mentioned Paul over Jesus. I posted 1 Corinthians 15:41-42 in response to how the physical imitates the spiritual. As mike stated there is a huge difference between Astronomy & Astrology. Astronomy (from Greek: ἀστρονομία) is a natural science that studies celestial objects & phenomena. It applies mathematics, physics, & chemistry, in an effort to explain the origin of those objects & phenomena & their evolution. I love looking at the stars. Objects of interest include planets, moons, stars, galaxies, & comets; the phenomena include supernova explosions, gamma ray bursts, & cosmic microwave background radiation. More generally, all phenomena that originate outside Earth's atmosphere are w/in the purview of astronomy. Ancient civilizations referred to the celestial bodies as the Mazzaroth as there are 81 named constellations. Mazzaroth is a Biblical Hebrew word (מַזָּרוֹת Mazzārōṯ, LXX Μαζουρωθ Mazourōth) found in Job 38:31-33 & literally meaning a garland of crowns but its context is that of astronomical constellations, & it is often interpreted as a term for the zodiac or the constellations thereof The Mazzaroth (zodiac) is an area of the sky that extends approximately 8° N or S (as measured in celestial latitude) of the ecliptic The apparent path of the Sun across the celestial sphere over the course of a year The paths of the Moon & visible planets are also w/ in the belt. The word zodiac comes from the Greek ζῳδιακός (zōidiakos), meaning the “circle of animals.” The Latin term zōdiacus was derived from the Greek, and the Greek term comes from the word ζῴδιον (zōdion), which is the diminutive of ζῷον (zōon), or animal. Some of the names & the meaning have changed throughout the years from the original names & meanings but the fact remains: He determines the number of the stars; He gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, & abundant in power; His understanding is beyond measure. Psalms 147:4-5 The 12 sons of Jacob / 12 tribes of Israel can also be identified w/ the 12 signs of the zodiac The correspondence of the constellations w/ their names in Hebrew & the months is as follows: Aries - Taleh - Nissan -נִיסָן Taurus - Shor - Iyar - אייר Gemini - Teomim - Sivan - סיוון Aviv – first month – literally "spring" (Exodus 12:2, 13:4, 23:15, 34:18, Deut. 16:1); Ziv – second month – literally "light" (1 Kings 6:1, 6:37); Cancer - Sarton -Tammuz - תַּמּוּז Leo -Ari - Av - אָב Virgo - Betulah - Elul - אֱלוּל Libra - Moznayim - Tishrei - תִּשׁרִי Ethanim – 7th month literally "strong" rains (1 Kings 8:2) Bul – 8th month (1 Kings 6:38) Scorpio - 'Akrab - Chesvan - מרחשוון Sagittarius - Kasshat - Kislev - כסליו Capricorn -Gedi - Tevet - טֵבֵת Aquarius - D'li - Shevat - שְׁבָט Pisces - Dagam - Adar - אֲדָר The heavens declare the glory of God, & the sky above proclaims His handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, & night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving His chamber, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. Psalm 19:1-6 Genesis 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for SIGNS and seasons, and for days and years; The 1st zodiac of the Mazzaroth is known by her Latin name Virgo the Virgin as she holds a branch. Whose Seed is to bruise the serpent's head, the Branch of YHWH יהוה , perfect man & perfect God, Immanuel, ‘God with us,’ yielding up His life that others may have life for evermore. In the head of Virgo, the star Zavijava is alluded to in Isaiah 4:2, where it says that the branch of the Lord will be glorious & beautiful. Zavijava's spiritual meaning is, "glorious and beautiful". The star Vindemiatrix, meaning "the son who comes" or "the branch who comes". The star Subilon, meaning "the branch" in her right hand is associated w/ Christ, as concerning the flesh, proceeded from Abraham, Jesse, David, Mary Romans 1:3 Mark 6:3 I will bring forth my servant the Branch Zechariah 3:8 Behold the man whose name is The Branch Zechariah 6:12. Spica, also designated Alpha Virginis (α Virginis, abbreviated Alpha Vir, α Vir), is the brightest star in the constellation of Virgo & 1 of the 20 brightest stars in the night sky. The traditional name Spica derives from Latin spīca virginis "the virgin's ear of [wheat] grain". Also there are 3 other symbols called decans Coma - the desired Centaurus -the despised Bootes - the coming shepherd The Promised Seed from the beginning to the end, from the 1st promise of the birth of the Child in Bethlehem, to the final coming of the great Judge and Harvester THREAD with Pictures & Charts MORE: threadreaderapp.com/thread/1043228021275148288.html
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Post by venge on Nov 13, 2019 9:54:10 GMT -6
bondservantI said previously that I would not continue to talk about astronomy/astrology etc on this post to Mike and I intend to do that. Therefore, I will not reply to the things you posted that refer to those things. If you would like to post different NT scripture that may support disciples teaching followers to look at the sky and follow planetary alignments for future events, please post them. I had stated that the 2 you did posts, which I appreciate, I did not find evidence that supports the disciples taught that to followers.
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Post by bondservant on Nov 13, 2019 10:18:03 GMT -6
"those that seek signs to prove what that Jesus is who He said He is will only be given the sign of Jonah" Context matters. Audience matters. Who was it, Jesus spoke to? The pharisees and the scribes of his own people, the Jews. What was the context of this? The guys wanted a sign from Jesus. And Jesus pointed them to the sign of his death and his time in the grave. I dont think, that this quote is applicable to the discussion of the celestial and astronomical signs. I would call this eisegesis... Just my 2 cent. To be clear I was not directing this at Venge in any way (as in a pharisee) as he has stated the he is not seeking signs. For the record, I am not seeking after signs or "demanding" signs either. Do you think the statement that Jesus made is only applicable to the pharisees, scribes & Jews? I can use that scripture to reflect upon myself and ask myself, "Am I allowing my religion.. my preconceived ideas... my doctrine... my philosophy or anything idea that would hinder me from growing or watching for His soon return?" Matthew 16:1-4 English Standard Version (ESV) The Pharisees and Sadducees Demand Signs 16 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and to test him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3 And in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed. σημεῖα (sēmeia) — 32 Occurrences Matthew 16:3 N-ANP GRK: τὰ δὲ σημεῖα τῶν καιρῶν NAS: but cannot [discern] the signs of the times? KJV: not [discern] the signs of the times? INT: moreover [the] signs of the times 4592 sēmeíon – a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate. 4592 /sēmeíon ("sign") then emphasizes the end-purpose which exalts the one giving it. Accordingly, it is used dozens of times in the NT for what authenticates the Lord and His eternal purpose, especially by doing what mere man can not replicate of take credit for. sémeion: a signOriginal Word: σημεῖον, ου, τό Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: sémeion Phonetic Spelling: (say-mi'-on) Definition: a sign Usage: a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token. Luke 11:15-17 English Standard Version (ESV) 15 But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons,” 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven. 17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls.Let's all agree not to let this divide us but encourage us and grow together as I have watched this community do.1 Corinthians 1:22-23 English Standard Version (ESV) 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:22 N-ANP GRK: καὶ Ἰουδαῖοι σημεῖα αἰτοῦσιν καὶ NAS: Jews ask for signs and Greeks search KJV: require a sign, and INT: both Jews a sign ask for and Revelation 12 English Standard Version (ESV) 12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. Revelation 12:1 N-NNS GRK: Καὶ σημεῖον μέγα ὤφθη NAS: A great sign appeared in heaven: KJV: a great wonder in INT: And a sign great was seen
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 13, 2019 10:33:26 GMT -6
venge - of course they were! They studied the scripture and Genesis clearly tells us in 1:14 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Mike, With all due respect, that verse does not answer my question. The question was: Were the disciples or the early church taught to look at the sun, moon, equinoxes etc where we find scripture of them telling us to do so? I’m looking for scripture that shows the early church instructed their followers to look at these things for reasons X, Y and Z. Where is that in the NT or early church writings? If they were taught to believers after Christ died and rose, I’d like to see what they said and what they thought. If they did not teach it, I will abstain because it’s better to abstain from food that may or may not be tainted so that there is no unclean thing that enters within. venge,bondservant,disciple4life,stormyknight,@reepicheep,mike,@natalie
The sentence above really has two separate questions in one, so I'm addressing them separately, for clarity. 1 "Were the disciples or the early church taught to look at the sun, moon, equinoxes etc . Absolutely, undeniably and without question. 2. where we find scripture of them telling us to do so? " Just like the trinity - Does scripture say in the exact words - "Jesus and God and Holy Spirit are 3 in one". NO, but does the whole counsel of scripture teach it when we harmonize scripture? Absolutely, undeniably and without question. ** For the record, I know about the verse in John, but this verse was not in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts.
I greatly appreciate and respect your desire to know what scripture says, but there are two points to consider,
- one is that you often use commentaries, which are meant to give insight, and or other historical or background information and often special linguistic or grammatical information that is usually not observable or known at the surface reading. That's fine, but to use commentaries and then insist on scripture "so that no unclean thing enters within" is confusing and a bit of a double standard. - two/ second, scripture says explicitly to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Do we believe that baptism saves us? No, and I'm guessing you would agree on this. This is why it's imperative that we cross-reference and use sound hermeneutics, and consider the audience, cultural, historical and grammatical context. The point is that this is quite like the rapture and trinity doctrines. Scripture is explicitly clear, when we compare and harmonize, but doesn't say explicitly.
- We are told to watch. Those who are watching will know the signs and not be surprised. All scripture is inspired, and the verse from Gen 1:14 is certainly relevant. It's history - not poetry, or apocalyptic genre. God put the literal sun, moon and stars in the sky for us for seasons and this particularly applies to his "moadim" the Hebrew word for the Feasts. The word means "appointed times" and the word is also translated as rehearsal. What are rehearsals for. ?? hmmmm.
- This is significant because all Jews were commanded to keep these feasts, and the most sacred of all of these is Day of Atonement.
- All the feast days are based on the lunar calendar, and in the time the Bible was written, the feasts were determined by the Full Moon. Without watching the moon, you would miss the start of the year, and the 3 pilgrimage feasts to Jerusalem, and be cut off from your people.
- All the Sabbaths, and all the feasts, and forgiveness of sins [DoA] was determined by observation of the moon and all set in place by the Feast that "No One Knows the Day or Hour."
- ***This was a well-known and instantly understood Hebrew idiom for Feast of Trumpets, and it is the only feast that falls on the New Moon. This had to have 2 witnesses in Jerusalem, who were questioned independently by the Sanhedrin, who were all experts in astronomy. It was sometimes cloudy, or rainy, and the sliver of the new moon was not visible. All the Sabbaths [Shabbat= weekly Sabbaths and Passover and Day of Atonement, Sukkot and every other Sabbath was set in place for the year by this one day- "that no one knows the day or hour". [**I'm making a special thread for this topic.] For this reason it's a 2 day holiday. When the 2 witnesses are confirmed by the Sanhedrin, the trumpets are sounded 100 times - Alternating long blasts and short fast staccato tones, so that people on hilltops could hear and then light the signal fires. The 100th blast even has it's own special name - this is Tekia Ha-gadol, the Last Trump.
- Paul kept the feasts even after Christ died and was resurrected and it's recorded in multiple accounts in the NT.
- Paul said that the feasts are a shadow of things to come.
- The Disciples and hundreds of Jewish and Gentile believers were all assembled together on Pentecost - [After the resurrection of Christ] which was directly determined by the literal and physical full moon.
- Passover is always on the observable full moon, but also based on the barley harvest. Have to watch the leteral moon and the earth- the literal barley plant.
- In the story of the wedding/ rapture - Christ compared the 5 wise and 5 foolish bridesmaids. Christ said that the 5 were foolish because they didn't know the hour.
- The Bible was written in common Greek, the language of fishermen and farmers. They had to know the skies for navigating ships and when storms were coming. Christ even said this - You know by the literal skies how to tell when a storm is coming, but they didn't know the signs of his coming.
- Paul also said to the mixed Jewish and Gentile audience that we/Christians are not children of the night, but are children of the day, [What does he mean?] and says explicitly that the return of Christ would NOT surprise us, Like a thief in the Night, - a instantly recognizable idiom for the High Priest.
- The Magi were astronomers, and there is a specific literal constellation that is associated with Judah. They were looking for the birth of the King, and said they saw his star and had come to worship him. They were looking to the literal stars/planets to help find a literal king and a literal event in the future. The birth of Christ. This is not astrology. Christ would not list astrologers/sorcerers as being linked to the story of his birth. Astrology is worshipping the stars instead of Christ, and uses the signs of the zodiac to falsely tell peoples futures, and falsely tell their personality, (make relational matches, etc, etc)
Maranatha,
Disciple4life
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Post by stormyknight on Nov 13, 2019 10:36:39 GMT -6
venge - of course they were! They studied the scripture and Genesis clearly tells us in 1:14 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Mike, With all due respect, that verse does not answer my question. The question was: Were the disciples or the early church taught to look at the sun, moon, equinoxes etc where we find scripture of them telling us to do so? I’m looking for scripture that shows the early church instructed their followers to look at these things for reasons X, Y and Z. Where is that in the NT or early church writings? If they were taught to believers after Christ died and rose, I’d like to see what they said and what they thought. If they did not teach it, I will abstain because it’s better to abstain from food that may or may not be tainted so that there is no unclean thing that enters within. venge, I think you have gotten various answers on this, but if you don't mind, I'd like to give you my perspective. 'back in the day' before someone one with a printing press started spitting out calendars and giving them away at Christmas(sorry, being sarcastic), everyone looked to the Sun, Moon, and Stars just so they knew what day it was, what time it was, when spring or winter was coming, etc. Everyone! You taught your kids how to do this just as your parents taught you. It was a given. If you were to ask 'how do you know what day it is?' you would probably get a 'are you kidding me?' look. But then those who knew their scriptures knew that God had said that these celestial bodies were first and foremost for signs. So when John says he saw a sign in the heavens that appeared like a woman clothed in the sun... etc., they, back in his day, would have known he was talking about the literal sun, moon, and stars. They knew the Mazzaroth and all the figures in it. Unfortunately, we have lost that knowledge or it has become muddled by the deceiver. As for the latter part of your question, I have asked so many times for God to write out in crayon what He wants me to do, where to go, etc. because I feel so trapped and useless here in the middle of nowhere. But I know that's not how He works. He's got a plan and I will wait on Him and keep studying His Word.
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Post by venge on Nov 13, 2019 11:10:12 GMT -6
To those that replied. I see you posting OT texts and saying they (disciples) probably followed these things. I’m not asking for probabilities or guesstimates. If we should look to the sky, the disciples would teach that to their followers. It would be passed down. Just as they passed down many things.
Again, please provide scriptural reference in the NT that demonstrates the church is supposed to look to the sky above as taught by the disciples and passed onto the church through biblical NT writings or writings from the early church. If It were for us to do so, they would have been taught it by Christ, not the old law, and it would be passed to others to do so. I would like to compile a list. So far, I only have a small ref in Luke which I will not dive into till I have more to support an assertion.
Has anyone else read that? And if so, please show me where in the NT
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Post by mike on Nov 13, 2019 11:33:48 GMT -6
Venge - it seems to me you are looking for specific instruction from the NT only to observe the heavens. Why is it that you omit OT precedent? Did the writers of the NT have the NT to refer to? Did they know their writings would be used for the next 2000 years to teach all believers until the Lord return?
Jesus Himself told us about the signs as do other verses in the NT:
Luke 21:25 Rev 7:2 Rev 12:1-2 Rev 12:3 Rev 15:1
I'm certain there are others and as the previous posts display there are allusions to the heavens in other text.
I dont think you'll find the answer you are looking for since you are adamant about it being explicit and fitting precisely into the line of thinking you are hoping to see. At least this is how I am interpreting what you ask.
the text in the above examples states these are signs in the sun, heavens, stars. I'm not sure how else you would like to read them, but they dont seem to fit your expectation, therefore you may not find your answer.
With that I'm bowing out of this discussion. Should you find the answer you search for, please include me in the finding
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Post by stormyknight on Nov 13, 2019 11:48:20 GMT -6
I assume you are referring to Luke 21:25, "There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars,..." Verse 26 also refers to the heavens, "for the powers of the heavens will be shaken." the word for powers is dunamis
dunamis: (miraculous) power, might, strength Original Word: δύναμις, εως, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: dunamis Phonetic Spelling: (doo'-nam-is) Definition: (miraculous) power, might, strength Usage: (a) physical power, force, might, ability, efficacy, energy, meaning (b) plur: powerful deeds, deeds showing (physical) power, marvelous works.
Matt. 24:29 referring to the same thing, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
Mark also, "And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."
2 Pet. 3:10-12, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up… "
Acts 2:19-20, "I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
I will say this, though, venge, if the translation is correct Jesus doesn't tell us, in Luke 21:28, to literally 'look up'. The word is anakupto, which is to straighten up, stand up, be elated, as in "things are looking up, be happy because your redeemer is almost here!" But I could not find anywhere that the apostles or Jesus, Himself, said to 'hey look up at the sky because there is a sign there pointing to this or that. Just those I referenced above. BUT, the "heavens" that John refers to in Rev. 12:1 is 'ouranos' which is the visible sky. "1. the vaulted expanse of the Sky with all the things visible in it;" (from Strong's)
Cheers and Maranatha!
So they, Jesus and the Apostles, warn and warn and warn, then John, granted while in the spirit, sees what they are warning about in the sky.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 13, 2019 11:59:50 GMT -6
stormyknight, Mike started a different thread so I moved your relevant post here.
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