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Post by mike on Nov 14, 2019 12:57:49 GMT -6
I wanted to start this thread as means to help us better understand what the bible teaches us but there appear to be gaps in the story leading us to fill in those spaces. Let me provide an example:
When I was first saved and reading through the bible as well as listening to a pastor teach I found something I thought to be odd, yet as I studied further I learned more and things made better sense to complete the picture. Ones perspective and experience is always a big piece of the puzzle.
Exo 12:1-10 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.
My first learning experience with sacrifice was the law. As I understood it, all of the Israelites had to partake in the Passover and eventually other feasts, as well as sacrifices and offerings throughout the law. Since Jesus came to fulfill the law, I figured anything before that had a different set of rules. "you dont know what you dont know" - how could someone prior to Moses be held accountable for the law when the law didnt exist?
Then I heard about this:
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Starting out reading in Genesis and see that Adam & Eve covered themselves with fig leaves but God replaced that with animal skins. On the surface, to a mind that is not in the renewal process we may casually dismiss this as "God wanted them to have something warmer" or something of the like, perhaps not even contemplate it.
I was taught (correctly) that without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins (Heb 9:22). But I didnt realize that when I read that God killed/sacrificed animals (no doubt the kind considered clean - we're not talking pigs here) He was showing that this was established from the beginning. Now imagine if you can, what was Adam thinking about when the Lord slew animals, skinned them and gave them to the two to be worn. Nothing prior to this moment had died, let alone been killed! Do you think Adam asked why did you kill the animals, what are these skins for, or why did you replace the fig leaves? Or did Adam just take the skins without questioning it? The bible doesn't specifically tell us the answer, leaving us to dig and gain understanding into the matter.
With very little supporting information to piece into place and reason as to why this all occurred we continue reading and come to chapter 4
Gen 4:3-7 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
So here is Abel bringing the firstlings of his flock for sacrifice. How did Abel know to bring the firstlings and the fat as the law hadnt been given. Better yet what were they even doing offering anything? Does the previous chapter tell us anything about offering? Nope...
I'll pause here for any feedback before continuing in the same manner
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Post by Natalie on Nov 14, 2019 13:49:54 GMT -6
I have wondered the same thing about the story of Cain and Abel.
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Post by mike on Nov 15, 2019 14:48:09 GMT -6
Lets take a look at a couple other examples and items regarding sacrifice before God 'required' it:
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Wait! when did God previously explain what animals were clean and unclean? How in the world would Noah have known what was clean/unclean? Does the bible tell us? No! Not at this point in time.
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
There are other examples of sacrifice and offering going on before the law. How did they (those who sacrificed) know how to do this before Moses actually instructed it?
Back to Cain - there are a couple theories I have heard about why God rejected the offering.
1) It wasn't the proper type of sacrifice. Cain was a tiller of the ground, while Abel kept the sheep (Gen 4:2). The sacrifice made each may have come from the thing they were most familiar with sheep or vegetation.
2) It wasnt offered properly. It wasnt the offering so much as it was the intention and heart of the giver of the offering.
3) a combination of both - Cain brought the wrong offering to the altar with the wrong spirit, contrary to his brother who came with the right heart and proper offering.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
However none of this really addresses the original question or item at hand. Why were they offering in the first place since no 'law' had been given them to do so. How could God reject an offering that doesnt appear He had instructed anyone how to perform until Moses?
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Post by mike on Nov 25, 2019 14:04:05 GMT -6
Tradition tells us that Moses penned the first 5 books of the Bible but I believe there is some missing information in that traditional narrative. It is my belief that Moses collected and compiled most of the Pentateuch but not everything.
When I first came to the understanding that the Bible was the actual words of God and historic revelation of His interaction with His people (and those who oppose Him), I was told it was Moses who wrote Gen - Deut. I questioned "how would Moses know about events that happened before he was born" and the answer was "God showed him...he spent a lot of time face to face with God on the mount etc." and I felt that answer was sufficient.
However, this view of scripture didnt help me understand things like the question I pose in this portion 'how would Abel have made a sacrifice acceptable to God?' and several other questions.
When I began to research and contemplate this more I found the simpler and in my opinion more sensible answer was that those who preceded Moses wrote down their own accounts of events. In this view God not only explained to Adam the things he was looking at and how they all came to be, He also provided instruction on how to live. In turn Adam penned or recorded the instruction and events. Adam taught his sons and onto Noah, Abraham and so on to Moses who would compile under divine inspiration possibly adding or editing text in context.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 25, 2019 16:29:20 GMT -6
I agree that there were probably things written down. Like Adams genealogy -- I am sure they kept those type of records. It makes sense that instructions from God would have been written down so that they could be handed down. When our family went to the Noah's Ark built by Answers in Genesis, one of the rooms they had created was "Noah's Study" and it had a whole bunch of scrolls organized in shelves (I'll see if I can get a link to a picture). I know that's artistic license, but it would make sense for Noah to preserve what had been handed down through his family. I think it's also a bit like John (?) said that if he would have included everything Jesus said or did the world couldn't hold the books. I am sure there is much that could have been written down for us but isn't.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 26, 2019 15:13:38 GMT -6
going back to the skin covering in Gen 3:21..
I always remembered that the two of them covered themselves with fig leaves... Then it was God that clothed them in skin not they themselves making the clothing.
And, as of today, I have come to see that God Himself "covered" them in skin, but it was with what we know of as our fleshly skin that He covered them. I will have to locate the study I participated in, but it really fits the story of how disobedience leads to shame (nakedness) and a loss of their "glory" or purity with God, even though we are not getting actual words for "glorified state of man" in these verses, it is the use of the word 'made' in regard to the clothing. The context is that of becoming clothed, or enveloped, and if God 'made' it from animals I am inclined to think there would have been words for "manufactured" or assembled from, or the like to indicate a skin not of their own..
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Post by Natalie on Nov 26, 2019 16:41:06 GMT -6
I've heard the idea before that Adam and Eve could have been clothed in light and then the light went out when they sinned which led them to realizing they were naked. But if God had to give them human skin after the light went out, what did they have in between the time the light was gone and God talked with them? Maybe your study explained it. Because I am having a hard time picturing how it would all work.  I did look up the word "garment" used in that verse. Some translations use tunics or coats. The definition is that of a tunic, under-garment. The same word is used for Joseph's coat and the garments for Aaron and the priests. Consider Genesis 2:21 - God closed up Adam's flesh after removing the rib. Or Genesis 2:23 Adam calls her bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh.
Adam and Eve tried on their own to cover up what they did, but works will never save a person. A God provided sacrifice has always been what will be needed.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 26, 2019 19:26:01 GMT -6
Part of the focus of the covering given to them involves how the word for 'made'is used.
when it says God made them skins it is the same word for when He made the expanse, etc. so it is not actually an animal sacrifice to pull off the hides and make garments. That is what I got out of the study.
And too, the word for flesh in the verses for Gen 2:23 is more for a term of blood relation, moreso than muscles, tendons, physical skeletal thingies. And too the word in Gen2:21 is slightly different than v 23. Perhaps a person really familiar with Hebrew language could assist. There is way more meaning within the Hebrew words than our enlgish translation which seems to over-simplify this creation account of woman from man, and too, the covering of man by God after the disobedience of man..
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Post by mike on Nov 26, 2019 20:56:46 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl do you mean Gen 3, not 2? Here's the text in YLT Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them. 22 And Jehovah God saith, ‘Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,’ If they were clothed in light they were subsequently clothed in coats of skin. Although I have suspicion that Adam (and maybe even Eve, but Natalie's point does tend to sway me from it) was in some way in a glorified or glorified type of body. Is this what you refer to BSG? EDIT - just re-read your post and I'm reading it like the study leans towards God just creating animal skins but no animal was sacrificed? Am I reading it wrong? If I'm reading it the way I wrote that then wouldn't that mean there was no blood shed for sin?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2019 4:52:11 GMT -6
mike , Natalie , barbiosheepgirl , The best explanation and study on this topic (Gen 3:21) I ever read, can be found in the book "The Genesis Record" by Henry M.Morris. In a nutshell he holds the opinion that this was indeed the very first sacrifice with shedding of blood of an innocent creature (animal) as a precursor of the absolute and final sacrifice of Jesus. Makes a lot of sense to me, because it shows also the worthlessness of our own attempts to cover our sin. This explains in my eyes best many of the questions, that were brought up in this thread within this context. Just want to point interested lurkers to the mentioned book above. It helped me a lot in gaining a better understanding of what happened in the early days of man.
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Post by mike on Nov 27, 2019 6:17:40 GMT -6
mike , Natalie , barbiosheepgirl , The best explanation and study on this topic (Gen 3:21) I ever read, can be found in the book "The Genesis Record" by Henry M.Morris. In a nutshell he holds the opinion that this was indeed the very first sacrifice with shedding of blood of an innocent creature (animal) as a precursor of the absolute and final sacrifice of Jesus. Makes a lot of sense to me, because it shows also the worthlessness of our own attempts to cover our sin. This explains in my eyes best many of questions, that were brought up in this thread within this context. Just want to point interested lurkers to the mentioned book above. It helped me a lot in gaining a better understanding of what happened in the early days of man. A while back I was talking with my mom about creation and how important it is for Christians to understand (and defend) creation and not mingle it with anything related to evolution. I hold that position very firmly and continue to try to view the world around us through that lens and WOW has it helped me quite a bit. About 8-9 months ago (a few months after some of the conversations with mom) she says "hey Mike I bought you a bible..." Now I have several and figured "well I have another" and would eventually get to reading it. About two months ago I peeled off the plastic wrap and finally opened it. Wouldnt you know its the Henry Morris study bible  Now this topic is not covered in his study notes but some of his commentaries are interesting to me. Most notably is that he notes that in Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. Chapters 1-4 are recorded by Adam and passed along to his sons (likely Seth) who conclude the previous 4 chapters by opening 5 with the above and continuing. We see this theme continue with Noah (likely passing off the 'scrolls' to Shem) Genesis 11:10 These are the generations of Shem: |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 27, 2019 9:03:07 GMT -6
mike , I should have pulled quotes. I was pointing out the word for flesh in re to Nat's reference to Gen 2:21 and Gen 2:23 as not being flesh per se as we see "flesh" but blood-related, esp. in the verse Gen 2:23, and that the context of Gen 3:21 is that the word used to show that God MADE them their coverings is the same word way-ya-‘aś used for making the expanse etc. meaning to me, designing or producing.. Though I will concede there is an implication that He could have designed it from animal skins...it was impressed my me that it was a created thing of His power verses a making from something else. nonetheles there is a bigger point in this passage of Gen 3:21 that GOD is the provider, HE covered them, and it doesn't explicitly state that He took the hides from animals, but it does suggest to me there is nothing we can do ourselves to "fix" our mistakes just like what @reepicheep stated, and mike, yes, I am thinking they were in some form of glorified state as they walked with God literally. Likely in an image of His Light? We all agree that the two of them tried to use their own methods of covering their nakedness.. which would suggest self-awareness of their nudity. and implies they had skin. BUT was it the same skin we have now? Eve came from Adam's rib, so that would suggest "flesh" form, and to do so Adam had to be "asleep" for it to happen. These things sound like mortal aspects. But Adam from the earth and Eve from his "blood" I find a whole other aspect to ponder in re to glorifiedness. There was a mindful change for the two, but was there a transformation via a loss of some form of glorified state that caused them to see their immortal bodies? Or was it a mere changing of their mind?
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Post by boraddict on Nov 27, 2019 12:18:08 GMT -6
I remember reading (somewhere) that Moses got the Adam and Eve and Noah etc. info from a text source; that the book of Genesis written by Moses was a summary of other written works in his possession: go figure!
So Adam and Eve had no clothes (animal skins) until after they sinned. As in, they were not covered by dead animals until after they sinned. I guess prior to them sinning they were with God and afterwards they were told to cover themselves with animal skins. As previously stated, the animal skins seems to equate to the idea that: Adam and Eve being covered by animal skins symbolizes that Adam and Eve are covered by the sacrifice of Christ; I like that concept, thanks.
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Post by mike on Nov 27, 2019 14:00:59 GMT -6
I also like to think that God explained what they did and the repercussions including the ongoing need to make sacrifices (bringing us back to the original post).
So to BSG post if God didn't kill and skin an animal, and "provided" animal skins why would we see Cain and Abel offering sacrifices? Why and where did they learn this? (Not challenging your post, just not necessarily wording this very well)
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 27, 2019 16:04:49 GMT -6
we don't know for a fact that God killed animals and covered them with the skins of said animals. It just said made garments of skin... BUT, just now I went to Hub and they are suggesting the word for skin here in this verse refers to the human skin... If I can recall that study I am so trying to find my motes, that was one of the things pointed out. That is why I came away with a change in the mortal state of the two after God "clothed" them.. There is the skin of men and then there is the skin of animals in the use of the Hebrew word: עוֹר, 'or' which is phonetically pronounced "ore". For Gen 3:21, Hub and its Hebrew definitions it is referencing the skin of men. This is why I would love a person here with knowledge of Hebrew to confirm this..
As far as Cain and Abel, I have not studied a linkage of their events with the original clothing event, though I would imagine the pattern is there and gets repeated, just like it is all the way up to today...Perhaps it simulates what God had to do for man? Later on we see man having to perform these things, ie, the Passover lamb as an animal sacrifice which later was fulfilled by the Word made Flesh... God covered Himself with flesh THEN fulfilled the animal sacrificed for sanctification. hmmm, There is SOOOOOOO much going on in such a simple story, is there not? LOVE the study of Adam and Eve and basically all of the book of Genesis..
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