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Post by venge on Aug 15, 2020 20:18:10 GMT -6
disciple4life said: Wait..you actually believe fire will come out of their mouth
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Post by disciple4life on Aug 16, 2020 7:18:21 GMT -6
Well, for one, I believe we'll be gone anyway, so it's a lot like speculating on the actual identity of the AC. Second, in general i take scripture more literally, and you tend to take scripture as more symbolic/allegory. Here's a question? You mean you actually believe " They will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sack cloth" Rev 11:3 Are they actually wearing sack cloth or doesn't it really mean cotton oxford dress shirt and blue jeans? Wait, you actually believe that Jesus was in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights, like he actually said and there will be an actual Mark of the Beast on a person's hand - just like it actually says? We can agree to disagree. I consider cross references, and believe that with 100 lb hail stones falling, and giant asteroids crashing into earth, 1/3 of the creatures in the sea being destroyed, and locusts that sting like scorpions with faces like men, and the people suffer for 5 months, - why is it so hard to believe in other supernatural events. There are two cross reference verses listed in the NASB in this verse. 2 Kings 10:12 and Numbers 16:29, 35 2 Kings 10:12 New International Version 12 “If I am a man of God,” Elijah replied, “may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!” Then the fire of God fell from heaven and consumed him and his fifty men. ( real fire, 51 real actual men.) Numbers 16:30-32 New International Version 30 But if the Lord brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the realm of the dead, then you will know that these men have treated the Lord with contempt.” 31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions. 35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense. (real fire, real incense, real possessions, 250 real actual men.)
When you think about the fact that the two witnesses are likely Elijah and Enoch, -- that they have been dead for 2000+years, and now they're walking in Jerusalem, the side note that they breathe fire, will be almost as insignificant as their socks not matching.
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Post by mike on Aug 16, 2020 9:09:29 GMT -6
D4L that is funny!
Seriously why do we not take this or other text literal? I do see application of it being fire in the sense of spiritual cleansing fire but why cant it both?
Here how about this the second part of that verse "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed."
So if someone tried to harm them with a knife or a sword then what should we expect they be killed with? Should they even be killed?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 16, 2020 9:46:53 GMT -6
disciple4life , DO you believe that there is a literal spiritual representation of the literal physical elements of the Word? I do. I do not think of it as allegory. I do not think of it as symbolic. allegory: a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one. symbolic: significant purely in terms of what is being represented or implied.There is a difference in my opinion from a LITERAL Spiritual situation in the heavenly realm verses a person who is speaking of things in allegory or symbolism. I believe in a LITERAL Holy Spirit for example. And the Spirit from Heaven's realm looks like A, B, C, etc from the earthly physical perspective. You are giving an example of a physical event that actually literally physically happened. Neither of your examples were from visions. They were proclamations that came to fruition. JUst like the parting of the REd Sea, and the staff being turned into a snake, etc.. real physical things. Not words of visions of the Spirit.. Here would be my example of a literal spiritual element that has a physical representation, one of Daniel's visions: 3Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last. 4I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.he then gets an answer 20“The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
We know that a ram (literal physical animal) is not going to rule as a literal physical king. and we are grateful that we are given the interpretation so we dont have to guess. So in regard to this: 3“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Even within this vision John is told what they are: 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Where does it say this is enoch and elijah? If we are to take it literal physical then we ought to be seeing 2 lampstands and two olive trees coming to life to preach, but that's just silly. Why is it not 4 people? One's guess that they are Enoch and Elijah is no more valid than someone suggesting this is the work of the saint, a preaching from midheaven, if you will, that will happen before the fall of mystery babylon (see Rev 14) The sack cloth part is these individuals are NOT from a specific denomination of the churches. In fact, it is the pure gospel of Truth, the eyewitnesses who go where ever Jesus goes, undefiled and blameless because they have been purchased as the first fruits, like the original 120, Act 1:15. Preaching the way it was BEFORE organized religion came around (our modern day phariseeic churches). Sack cloth think of John the Baptist. He has a simple message to prepare the way, this time it is the 2nd Coming they are preparing Sack cloth, meaning ordinary disciples preaching 23He said, “I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”
the 2 witness aspect: 21“Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
The 'city' where this preaching happens? Yes, it could be literal Jerusalem. What does heaven think of this city? it is Sodom and Egypt spiritually. Is that what we think of Jerusalem today? But what lies in bondage? Man's evil heart.. 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Did you notice that in the beginning of this part of the vision John is measuring the temple? A literal physical temple? nope. The outer court is not measurable yet because the witnessing hasn't come out of midheaven yet in the pattern of John the baptist and the Apostles. The result of this preaching does what? seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. A completed number lose life by this shaking and the remainder seem to give glory to God. Isnt this what sharing the gospel does? The Truth piercing like a two-edged sword, cutting thru marrow... For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
My edit here is after reading Mike's post. Does the word of God literal "kill" someone like a knife? I often think of Paul and what he says here: 21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. and here 19“For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. and this 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
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Post by disciple4life on Aug 16, 2020 12:30:41 GMT -6
Seriously why do we not take this or other text literal? I do see application of it being fire in the sense of spiritual cleansing fire but why cant it both? mike said it so much better than i could. ;-) Again, since i am firmly of the belief that Christians will be gone, it's not something that affects salvation, and it is my opinion that it won't affect us at all, so I'm not dogmatic about it. I could be wrong. On the sliding scale of 1 - 5, 1 being totally unsure/no idea, and 5 being totally convinced - i'm about 3. It is why i said that if we do see them, then it will mean we are in the tribulation and i have to rethink multiple things. And yes, barbiosheepgirl , I totally agree with you that there are some real things - literal, tangible which point to or represent other spiritual things. Amen ! Three examples that come to mind, and i think it's what you're saying. The first one is the serpent on the pole in the wilderness. They were literally suffering from literal serpent bites, and Moses told them to make a pole with a serpent on it [i'm not sure if the serpent on the pole was a real dead one, or not] but the people looked to a physical literal thing and were literally healed - this points forward to another spiritual truth later on. The physical actual blood of an actual lamb on a literal, physical wood or stone lintels of the literal door at Passover. It wasn't an attitude, - it wasn't the belief in God's power or his promises. The literal death angel came and saw literal blood sprinkled on the door. Anyone who 'believed' but did not do this physical, literal command were literally killed. Not spiritually punished. Jonah was literally and physically 3 days and 3 nights [not a day and a half] in the belly of an actual, literal great fish, and then spit out on literal land. Jonah himself explicitly said it was like he was dead - [symbolic of death and specifically symbolic of Christ being 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth] and this physical spiritual event foreshadows the death and burial of Christ. As an otter, who is a verbal processor, I don't always express the first or second or third time, what i mean. Sometimes, stormyknight , or boraddict or @natalie, or venge or yardstick or @reepicheep , inaweofhim, Beloved, nana, kjs etc says something in another way and it's like " Yeah -- exactly what she/he said." Heheh. Here's take two. I believe that a fundamental rule of hermeneutics [principles of Bible interpretation] is that "When scripture seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense, or it will be nonsense." In general - most of the time, the first plain literal reading of scripture is the most accurate one. But I also fully recognize that Daniel and Revelation and Psalms are special kinds of genre, and you can't interpret poetry the same as Epistles. My point is this - there is very compelling evidence for the notion that the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, but i don't know for sure, - I think there are even multiple threads on the two witnesses. But while there is much speculation about the actual identity - there is almost universal consensus among Christians that there are 2 witnesses, and that these 2 will be represented by 2 real physical living people who walk and talk and speak. Not 3, not 5, not 12, not 4. Why? Because the passage explicitly says 2. Let this percolate for two minutes . . . while we aren't sure about the exact sequence of the timeline, and countless theories of tribulation events, - again, there is almost universal consensus (whoever the two witnesses are), regarding at least three things about them - 1. there is something that is physically/ visibly unique that sets them apart from the rest of the 7.5 billion. Some physical feature about their dress. hmmmmm. Sack cloth was significant for the connection of mourning, and repentance. But it was nonetheless physical and visible. Does /could there be another spiritual meaning??? Definitely. Are they sad, mourning, calling for repentence, yes. 2. These 2 literal physical witnesses, witness for 1290 days. Not six months, not 7 years, not 33 days, not 40 days and 40 nights.- the number of testing. Couldn't it be that since that everyone agrees the tribulation is a time of great testing, that really - they witness for 40 days and 40 nights, because this corresponds to the same time Jesus was tested in the wilderness, and the same time it rained in the Flood of Noah? The Flood was a time of testing, and also a perfect type of the end times. Earth destroyed, righteous warned, saved, and wicked punished. Right??? Any sane, rational person would say "NO" !!! You have no basis for saying the number of days not real -or is other than what it says. 3. The third thing that has near universal consensus is that whoever the 2 witnesses are, and whatever they are wearing - UnderArmour, or matching LL Bean jackets, - that they do supernatural wonders, that defies science or rational explanation. Does anyone really doubt/ question that these prophets don't have the power to stop the rain for the same 1290 days?? The same people who agree that there are 2 witnesses, because the text says it, and that they witness for 1290 days, [because the text says it] have no basis to say that these witnesses can't/won't do supernatural events - because the text explicitly says they will. Really, i don't know if 'silly' is the right word, so i think a better word is "inconsistent" to pick two lines from a text of 3 verses all connected in the same narrative, and say this line is totally symbolic, but these lines from the same passage are literal, and plainly mean what they plainly say. I have no contempt for any who take it all symbolically. I think that this clarifies why i think that the 3rd temple is real, physical, literal brick and mortar, stone/metal structure. Does it have symbolic and spiritual meaning?? Absolutely. Does it point to a greater, future, spiritual concept or event?? Absolutely. So why can't it be both. Of course, we as Christians understand that Christ's sacrifice paid the penalty and that the blood of sheep and goats doesn't save us. we have a truer and more perfect high priest, who was the perfect atonement, and now we have direct access to God. "Let us therefore, come boldly to the throne of grace," But the Jews have raised real, red heifers, and have real physical instruments and a real, solid gold menorah, and in order to have a temple in Jerusalem, Israel, they have to have a real cleansing ceremony, with real ashes of certified red heifer. This real 3rd temple is where the AC will stand in the holy place and commit the Abomination of Desolation. It is largely this real, actual physical act, in a real, physical brick and mortar building that will open the eyes of the Jewish people. I long for the announcement of the red heifer sacrifice in the coming 3 weeks. I don't erroneously think we need a 3rd temple to do sacrifices. I know it's part of the prophetic sequence of events - and it makes no difference if Christians don't agree with it. It means we are that much closer to the Harpazo. So, my feeling about 2 witnesses breathing fire - 3. My feeling about the location - 2. My feeling about the identity of the AC - 2. My feeling about it being a real, stone/brick building - 5. My feeling that we who are watching will not be surprised [no random, surprise, any day rapture] - 5 My feeling that we are seeing birthing pains- that we are the terminal generation and we see the rapture in the next two years. About "7" on a 1-5 scale. Maranatha, Can't wait to see you all in the air. We are almost home !! In an attitude of trying to be a welcoming, fun-loving otter, I'm making homemade Chili's Avacado Ranch sauce and Southern sweet tea, and and inviting my dear brothers to engage in discusssion. I have opinions but i don't have it all figured out. Bring chips or your favorite dipping snack. We might not agree on everything, but most everyone can agree that "Chili's Avocado Ranch dipping sauce" is amazing. I'm pretty sure it's on the menu at the marriage supper of the lamb. ** Message me for the recipe. Disciple4life
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 16, 2020 13:38:12 GMT -6
Wait..you actually believe fire will come out of their mouth I do. Psalms 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. And continuing in Psalm 18 God's going to tear a hole in this universe to enter into it from Heaven, And from the very breath of God's nostrils He's going to blow away rivers, the dirt below them, and expose the bedrock and even blow away the bedrock to expose the very foundations of the world... yea, God's going to be pretty mad. Habakkuk 3:8 Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation? A little fireball from the mouth of 2 witnesses is nothing... lol. Power and great glory actually means something. They are not just words.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 16, 2020 18:36:45 GMT -6
disciple4life , the text explicitely says they are 2 olive trees and two lampstands that stand before the Lord.. what do you do with that? and I do see that they do quite amazing things from heaven's definition. I agree with you in the timing aspect of what 1260 means. Which I think you meant 1260, not 1290. Who is deducing that this ch 11 is about a period of testing? why is the revealing of Jesus Christ ALWAYS to be about testing? I do not consider that the witness vision is a testing. The number 1260 is to suggest that this work of the witness is NOT about a period of testing because it is not about the number 4...well, one could divide 1260 by 4 and get 315. but that is random and not a pattern. 1260 divided by 7 (God's number of completion) is 180. Double that and you get a 360 year. but you also get divisions of 12...hmmm 12It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. lots of good things seem to come about with the number 12...healing, not destruction is what I see here.... I get that, d4L, about hermeneutics, especially when discerning the OT but even with Paul & the NT, what do you do about him saying we die to self? Literally die? Hermeneutic rules, invented by man just doesn't seem to work when we are trying to understand a spiritual vision. Especially when we have elements of the vision that most of us in this forum seem to believe has been fulfilled, namely Rev 12:1,2. Did we see a literal woman in the heavens 9.23.17? was there a literal woman standing somewhere on earth at that time? For those who are not looking at the heavenly constellations as being a sign and or pointing to a season, then will we literally see a physical woman clothed in the sun and standing on the moon? symbolically it has some meaning, but it is deeper than that. It is a literal spiritual representation that John saw and are not a symbol of something it IS something. We are to seek if we can what this Spiritual thing is actually happening on earth from earth's perspective...because John saw it happening in heaven.. It is not a symbol of something, It is a thing that is SOMETHING in heaven and equals THIS on earth. Show me an episode that was in a vision and was the same thing in that vision as what physically happened on earth. I think you mean 1260, but I ask you this: what is rain from the heavenly standpoint? Ps 68You, O God, sent a plentiful rain, Whereby You confirmed Your inheritance, When it was weary. Is 45 Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the LORD have created it.and this is an abomination, is it not? They stand in judgement/blindness for their lack of Faith, do they not? Are or have they accepted this judgement? Isnt this what daniel was praying in the first place? 7“Righteousness belongs to You, O Lord, but to us open shame, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those who are nearby and those who are far away in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of their unfaithful deeds which they have committed against You. 8“Open shame belongs to us, O Lord, to our kings, our princes and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9“To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him; 10nor have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets. 11“Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him. 12“Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem. 13“As it is written in the law of Moses, all this calamity has come on us; yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our iniquity and giving attention to Your truth. 14“Therefore the LORD has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the LORD our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice.This prayer should be a daily prayer, even in today's timeframe. Because is this not the same attitude still happening even to this day... are you saying then that the AC is the jew? How will their eyes be opened when they sacrifice a heifer? What are they expecting to happen at this heifer sacrifice? We as believers KNOW the Temple of God is NOT made with hands. So if literal 3rd one is gonna be built, who are they building it for? I dont see this event in the Revealing of Christ vision. The last I looked, heaven seems to be think of modern day Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt... btw, d4L, I am a fellow otter. Dominated by otter daily, though supported by a lion golden mix that never ever lets beavers have any say. Maybe that is why I just can't sit still with literal physical only as the meaning of His Word...
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Post by mike on Aug 16, 2020 19:35:26 GMT -6
BSG - I think I follow your line of reasoning. This helped me a little Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness
5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.It's not the person himself, its his image/likeness. This helps me too Heb 8:5...for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mountEx 25:9, 40, 26:30, 27:8 - why the precise detail? Why the necessity to copy exactly what he sees?
The image represents the reality which is spiritual. It's why I say, why can't it be both So what should we be looking for? Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed
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Post by disciple4life on Aug 16, 2020 20:02:40 GMT -6
are you saying then that the AC is the jew? How will their eyes be opened when they sacrifice a heifer? What are they expecting to happen at this heifer sacrifice? We as believers KNOW the Temple of God is NOT made with hands. So if literal 3rd one is gonna be built, who are they building it for? I dont see this event in the Revealing of Christ vision. The last I looked, heaven seems to be think of modern day Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt... btw, d4L, I am a fellow otter. Dominated by otter daily, though supported by a lion golden mix that never ever lets beavers have any say. Maybe that is why I just can't sit still with literal physical only as the meaning of His Word... Thank you, for your thoughts, and explanations, my fellow sister otter. Just 4 thoughts to further clarify. 1. - You are correct regarding the number in Revelation 11:3 . I accidentally wrote 1290 days, but it should be 1260 days - a simple typo, which you well know is understandable because it's another day count given in scripture. 1260 days is 3 1/2 years, or 42 Prophetic/Hebrew months, and 1290 days is 3 1/2 prophetic years with a leap month added for those who are not aware that prophecy usually counts 30 days in a month. 3 1/2 Gentile months, or modern day counting would be 1277 days. 2. I didn't mean, nor do i believe that the literal physical is the only meaning of His word. In the examples above, 2 witnesses, Noah's flood, passover, serpent on the pole, 40 days and 40 nights, and 3rd temple, etc, etc, it is both. Real, actual things or events which point to or represent spiritual truths. Like Mike said, "Why can't it be that the fire of the two witnesses is both spiritual cleansing and literal fire." I think there are multiple examples just in Revelation where it is a literal thing of event and it also carries a spiritual meaning, or points to another spiritual thing. Seven churches were in the vision, and they are literal churches, - real congregations of churches in real cities, all of which are in actual churches. The Last Trumpet is not only a metaphor for something else. There is a literal physical "Last Trumpet" which is seen and heard -- it's the 100th blast at Rosh Hoshanah. The best example of all i think in Revelation, - a vision, is the mark of the beast - something explicitly mentioned that is on the right hand or the forehead, which has major and permanent spiritual consequences. If it's not real, able to be scanned, or verified, then it's not enforceable. People can't ban you from buying, based on a thought or attitude. 3. I didn't mean that the Jews' collective eyes will be opened when they do the sacrifice of the red heifer in a few weeks. This is a cleansing ceremony in order for the temple to be built. I was meaning when the AC commits the Abomination of desolation. 4. A person has no basis to say that the 1260 days are really 1260 days and not 33 weeks, in the short passage about the two witnesses, and say that there really is two witnesses, rather than 12, or none (not real people) but then insist that these aspects are real, literal, but arbitrarily say that the fire in the same passage is not literal. This is inconsistent. You can't change standards of what's real and what's symbolic in the same verse. This would be like saying Jesus was fasting symbolically [meaning he didn't totally abstain from all food] for 40 actual days and 40 nights, literal, but he was in a symbolic dessert, - a time of lonliness. In other words, for a person to insist that the fire is not literal in these 2 verses, they can't then say that we should take the "2" witnesses to be an actual number, and they can't be consistent and say that the fire is not literal but the "1260 days" in the exact same verse should be taken literally as 1260. Maybe it's more like 40 weeks. Blessings, Disciple4life
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Post by venge on Aug 16, 2020 20:57:41 GMT -6
Wait..you actually believe fire will come out of their mouth I do. Psalms 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. And continuing in Psalm 18 God's going to tear a hole in this universe to enter into it from Heaven, And from the very breath of God's nostrils He's going to blow away rivers, the dirt below them, and expose the bedrock and even blow away the bedrock to expose the very foundations of the world... yea, God's going to be pretty mad. Habakkuk 3:8 Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation? A little fireball from the mouth of 2 witnesses is nothing... lol. Power and great glory actually means something. They are not just words. Jeremiah 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them. Is that literal? Nope The words of truth devour the people as words burn wood, the people melt. Same application as the so called Godzilla brothers. Gill’s commentary: behold, I will make my word in thy mouth fire: it shall have its effect, and a dreadful one; it shall not become wind, but be as fire, not to enlighten the understanding, to purify the conscience, and warm the heart; but to torture, distress, and destroy, as the fire of the word out of the mouths of the two witnesses, Revelation 11:5, and this people wood, and it shall devour them; as wood is devoured by fire, so shall this people be destroyed by sword and famine, as the word of the prophecy has declared they should; and which was done by the following means. —Noticed he links it to the 2 witnesses in Rev 11
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 17, 2020 6:15:27 GMT -6
I do. Psalms 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. And continuing in Psalm 18 God's going to tear a hole in this universe to enter into it from Heaven, And from the very breath of God's nostrils He's going to blow away rivers, the dirt below them, and expose the bedrock and even blow away the bedrock to expose the very foundations of the world... yea, God's going to be pretty mad. Habakkuk 3:8 Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation? A little fireball from the mouth of 2 witnesses is nothing... lol. Power and great glory actually means something. They are not just words. Jeremiah 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them. Is that literal? Nope The words of truth devour the people as words burn wood, the people melt. Same application as the so called Godzilla brothers. Gill’s commentary: behold, I will make my word in thy mouth fire: it shall have its effect, and a dreadful one; it shall not become wind, but be as fire, not to enlighten the understanding, to purify the conscience, and warm the heart; but to torture, distress, and destroy, as the fire of the word out of the mouths of the two witnesses, Revelation 11:5, and this people wood, and it shall devour them; as wood is devoured by fire, so shall this people be destroyed by sword and famine, as the word of the prophecy has declared they should; and which was done by the following means. —Noticed he links it to the 2 witnesses in Rev 11 I recommend both you and Gill read the verses preceding Jeremiah 5:14. Especially 11, 12, and 13. These people are basically saying these 2 are not of God. No harm will come of them. It's not God. "the prophets shall become wind". When we get to 5:14, God is going to prove them wrong. Fire will physically come out of their mouths, with real heat that can be measured with physical thermometers and devour them. Are you basically siding with them that say they are not of God, no true harm will come upon them? And then read the verses after 5:14... That's not some make believe army. That's the Psalm 18 army trained by God Himself, personally! (Psalm 18 is my favorite Psalm) It's the Joel 2 army, God's army. I believe it's the 1 Samuel 8 army, of which Jesus alluded to from Luke 19. God's going to collect us at Rapture and train us (Psalm 18:34). Then we will return with Christ as his army for the battle of Armageddon.
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Post by venge on Aug 17, 2020 19:39:25 GMT -6
I guess you didn’t get the context. God’s words in the mouth of his ministers are like fire and the people are the fuel. Truth hurts and burns. The prophets will speak Gods words and in doing so, it it destroys them to the very soul. This is a last chance to turn their hearts, a last chance to repent, a last call before it’s too late.
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 17, 2020 20:05:56 GMT -6
I guess you didn’t get the context. God’s words in the mouth of his ministers are like fire and the people are the fuel. Truth hurts and burns. The prophets will speak Gods words and in doing so, it it destroys them to the very soul. This is a last chance to turn their hearts, a last chance to repent, a last call before it’s too late. Remind me not to stand near you when God comes... LOL. I'm gunna give you a wide berth. Now, I'm going to post the KJV of Jeremiah 5 11 For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the Lord. 12 They have belied the Lord, and said, It is not he; neither shall evil come upon us; neither shall we see sword nor famine: 13 And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them. 14 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them. These Israeli people have ticked off God, Called God a straight up liar, said it's not God, evil will not come upon them, neither sword or famine. And the prophets are as harmless as wind, God's word is not in them, then straight up threaten their lives.... And the response from God is that He's going to just going to speak words to these people and it's all just spiritual fluff? Wind? No physical harm done... That would make them correct... and God a liar. Ah no... Let's look further up shall we: 4 Therefore I said, Surely these are poor; they are foolish: for they know not the way of the Lord, nor the judgment of their God. Judgement is not just words. It comes in many forms; the world was judged by water in the past, and fire in the future.
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Post by mike on Aug 18, 2020 6:28:31 GMT -6
More physical judgment
Did the earth literally open up and swallow Korah in Numbers 16? Did literal fire from God consume the burnt offering in 1 Kings 18?
Why is it so hard to see that these happened and similar events will again? Yes certain things that are written are allusions of spirit but not all
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Post by venge on Aug 18, 2020 7:35:04 GMT -6
I guess you didn’t get the context. God’s words in the mouth of his ministers are like fire and the people are the fuel. Truth hurts and burns. The prophets will speak Gods words and in doing so, it it destroys them to the very soul. This is a last chance to turn their hearts, a last chance to repent, a last call before it’s too late. Remind me not to stand near you when God comes... LOL. I'm gunna give you a wide berth. Now, I'm going to post the KJV of Jeremiah 5 11 For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the Lord. 12 They have belied the Lord, and said, It is not he; neither shall evil come upon us; neither shall we see sword nor famine: 13 And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them. 14 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them. These Israeli people have ticked off God, Called God a straight up liar, said it's not God, evil will not come upon them, neither sword or famine. And the prophets are as harmless as wind, God's word is not in them, then straight up threaten their lives.... And the response from God is that He's going to just going to speak words to these people and it's all just spiritual fluff? Wind? No physical harm done... That would make them correct... and God a liar. Ah no... Let's look further up shall we: 4 Therefore I said, Surely these are poor; they are foolish: for they know not the way of the Lord, nor the judgment of their God. Judgement is not just words. It comes in many forms; the world was judged by water in the past, and fire in the future. uscgvet , I understand. I get that God was rebuking those who were teaching the people wrongly. The after effect was, it will cost them their lives. But the analogy of, "I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them" is what is significant in relation. Not that the priest in this scenario were wicked, that is another example we can learn from, but that imagery of the verse explains what words coming out of the mouth of a speaker as fire are to those that hear it. Their words burn them up. Cause them to catch fire. Does a man, who is wicked, when he hears the truth of God...does he receive it joyfully and do others receive it with great anger? And as each man is burned in the fire of the words coming from these ministers, who will survive the fire of their mouth? For some are refined in the fire and are tested and come out better and others are burned even more... The truth of the matter is the fire of testing is not just around us in the world and the events that happen, truth in the word tests every man. Is their heart continually dark or can it be changed? As I said, this is a last call for those before it is too late.
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