We listen to testimonies now, can you imagine the testimonies were going to hear there? We are going to sing them like Anthem songs. Maybe each one of us will have one that tells our story!
Yes! What an exciting thought! How I look forward to hearing all the stories!
My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I may meditate on your promises. (Psalm 119:148)
Post by watchmanjim on Jun 23, 2017 21:30:21 GMT -6
I wonder whether we will teach the things we have learned to the mortals in our care. I am really looking forward to hopefully having a few people to take care of, when I don't have to worry about supporting myself.
I John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
But why do we need to wait to get our answers from the Lord? Don't we have the Holy Spirit, who as Jesus said would lead His disciples to all truth? Well I am not saying that I have all the answers, but before I was a Christian I had zillion of them and I was looking for the answers in the wrong places. But since Jesus reveled Himself to me, He has answered all the questions that I asked. They all came not just by reading the Bible and gaining knowledge, but through the personal revelation of Jesus Christ. Many Christians so focused on unimportant things like politics, world news, end of days, satan, creation etc... The only thing that is important and really matters is our Lord Jesus Christ. All things were created through Him and for Him. As the apostle Paul said "the truth is in Jesus". When we focus on Jesus and Him alone that when all the awesomeness start to happen.
which seems to be what Greg calls Universal Reconciliation – or put another way – eventually all human souls will become saved; even if they have to suffer punishment for a bit of time.
There is no basis in scripture to support this idea. Scripture clearly says that it is appointed unto man once to die, and after that is judgement. Ones eternal fate is determined by the choices they make in this life. Not after death.
which seems to be what Greg calls Universal Reconciliation – or put another way – eventually all human souls will become saved; even if they have to suffer punishment for a bit of time.
There is no basis in scripture to support this idea. Scripture clearly says that it is appointed unto man once to die, and after that is judgement. Ones eternal fate is determined by the choices they make in this life. Not after death.
You'll have to take that up with Greg. There's a thread about it.
I John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
I agree Rt, mainly on the basis that scripture tells us that Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
God does not idly threaten. He tells us of such a place, most souls inherently know (speak/ idolize) either of fear of going or embracing i.e. 'Hells Angels'
Revelation 19 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and THEM that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone
God WILL Universally Reconcile the world..... but only in the way he prescribed he would.,
I like most of you have a lot of those same questions. I do have a difference of opinion of the answers. I do believe that "when we see him we shall be like him..." 1John 3:2. We tend to have a very linear thought process as we are bound to this world in time. However, when we see him, we will be 'like' him. I dont believe that means simply bodily/physically but supernaturally we have abundance of revelation. Perhaps not "all-knowing" but a heck of a lot more than we do now! Many or most of the thoughts and questions most of us have wont really be relevant to us any longer as we are with Him!
Think about the song "I can only imagine" (if you're familiar) I mean really think about it!! Put yourself in that exact position! We will all be in that exact spot one day. For some it will be very glorious while profoundly humbling yet for others extremely fearful, scary and regretful! But for us who believe will you really care or even think about dinosaurs anymore (not knocking anyone)? My mindset changed on this about 6 months ago when my older brother passed. Though his life was difficult due to being handicapped since the age of 9, one of my first thoughts was he's now free of his limitations, but more importantly, he was in GOD's Presence!!!! It was overwhelming for me. to the point that i was kinda a little jealous, if you can believe that!!
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
I love that song, mike--and, yes, I understand that little feeling of being jealous. I've so often felt the same way when I think of my family members who are already with the Lord.
My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I may meditate on your promises. (Psalm 119:148)
When Rob Bell first released his book “Love Wins”, there was such a “hoop-La” made about it; that I decided to read it. I found it to be a very scholarly work with tons of scripture backing up his points, which seems to be what Greg calls Universal Reconciliation – or put another way – eventually all human souls will become saved; even if they have to suffer punishment for a bit of time.
One of the biggest arguments he made, that swayed me closer to his position is that God is so loving and Fair – it does not make sense that such Creator would condemn someone to eternal punishment, for a few decades of life on this world. In other words, now days people live 70 to 80 years before death; in some case some people die before they complete 20 years on this earth – Rob’s argument is that would it be fair of a Loving God – to condemn someone to eternal punishment for the 20 (40, 60, 80) some years that they lived on this earth. The conclusion of course (from human’s logic) would be no God would not be fair in doing that. Which means either humans have more compassion than God; or God has some other plan in the works.
Now, I think I share the majority’s viewpoint when I say that some people like a Hitler, or a Serial Killer, or Suicide Bomber deserve whatever punishments for the atrocities they committed. However, a ”Joe Blow” who lived a decent, loving life raising their kids, helping their neighbors through tough times and yet was not a believer – eternal punishment for them seems very harsh and not fair at all. Add that to some individual who was raised in “Timbuctoo” and never heard the gospel at all in their entire life; to be condemned already – because they did not believe.
Now, I was raised that we humans have a Body / Soul / Spirit and somehow the Soul and Spirit are intertwined in some way. The Spirit is dead because of the Fall and only comes alive again through the finished work of Jesus Christ. The Soul / Spirit is what lives forever and is the portion (portions) that will either be enjoying heaven with God – or being in torment away from God.
Now, I have never heard of Conditionalism – before. But from what I have read about it so – far – it might have some possibilities – of answering some of the objections – raised by eternal punishment – such as the fairness. I will need to study it more….
I think that you are looking at this from a incorrect perspective. Who gets to determine "what is fair"? What is fair to you may not be fair to me or someone else. While I am unfamiliar with "Love Wins", "Universal Reconciliation" or "Conditionalism" i think to suggest that living a good life for 20 years vs. someone who lived a wicked life for 60 yrs. should have a different punsihment is minimizing the work of the Cross!
God is loving and beyond fair. He proved his love towards us when he paid the price for our sins. The fairness was beyond what I can ever comprehend. He paid a debt for me that he didnt owe, because it was one i couldnt pay!
I truly see your above comments as viewing from an earthly (and Godless) perspective. I hope the tone in my reply is not coming across harsh as it is not intended to be. I am a straightforward type of person "if i see a duck, i call it a duck" and I believe i see some doctrinal error or perhaps just a lack of understanding.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
When Rob Bell first released his book “Love Wins”, there was such a “hoop-La” made about it; that I decided to read it. I found it to be a very scholarly work with tons of scripture backing up his points, which seems to be what Greg calls Universal Reconciliation – or put another way – eventually all human souls will become saved; even if they have to suffer punishment for a bit of time.
One of the biggest arguments he made, that swayed me closer to his position is that God is so loving and Fair – it does not make sense that such Creator would condemn someone to eternal punishment, for a few decades of life on this world. In other words, now days people live 70 to 80 years before death; in some case some people die before they complete 20 years on this earth – Rob’s argument is that would it be fair of a Loving God – to condemn someone to eternal punishment for the 20 (40, 60, 80) some years that they lived on this earth. The conclusion of course (from human’s logic) would be no God would not be fair in doing that. Which means either humans have more compassion than God; or God has some other plan in the works.
Now, I think I share the majority’s viewpoint when I say that some people like a Hitler, or a Serial Killer, or Suicide Bomber deserve whatever punishments for the atrocities they committed. However, a ”Joe Blow” who lived a decent, loving life raising their kids, helping their neighbors through tough times and yet was not a believer – eternal punishment for them seems very harsh and not fair at all. Add that to some individual who was raised in “Timbuctoo” and never heard the gospel at all in their entire life; to be condemned already – because they did not believe.
Now, I was raised that we humans have a Body / Soul / Spirit and somehow the Soul and Spirit are intertwined in some way. The Spirit is dead because of the Fall and only comes alive again through the finished work of Jesus Christ. The Soul / Spirit is what lives forever and is the portion (portions) that will either be enjoying heaven with God – or being in torment away from God.
Now, I have never heard of Conditionalism – before. But from what I have read about it so – far – it might have some possibilities – of answering some of the objections – raised by eternal punishment – such as the fairness. I will need to study it more….
I think that you are looking at this from a incorrect perspective. Who gets to determine "what is fair"? What is fair to you may not be fair to me or someone else. While I am unfamiliar with "Love Wins", "Universal Reconciliation" or "Conditionalism" i think to suggest that living a good life for 20 years vs. someone who lived a wicked life for 60 yrs. should have a different punsihment is minimizing the work of the Cross!
God is loving and beyond fair. He proved his love towards us when he paid the price for our sins. The fairness was beyond what I can ever comprehend. He paid a debt for me that he didnt owe, because it was one i couldnt pay!
I truly see your above comments as viewing from an earthly (and Godless) perspective. I hope the tone in my reply is not coming across harsh as it is not intended to be. I am a straightforward type of person "if i see a duck, i call it a duck" and I believe i see some doctrinal error or perhaps just a lack of understanding.
By all means – speak up and show me any errors of understanding I may have…..
You may wish to check out my “especially” thread – not sure which sub-directory it is under…. But the gist of the matter is we DO NOT KNOW God and his overall plan. We only know what he has revealed to us so far. Which may or may not change in the future. Until Apostle Paul, the Bible contained nothing about GRACE ALONE – it might have been implied and even hinted at; but nothing spelled out like the Apostle Paul did for us. Will there be more revealed in the future?
So when we have passages like 1Timothy 4:10 – “That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.”
We have to wonder – just what does that mean – “Savior of All People”….
Yes, yes some want to interpret to mean that God provided a way for all people to be saved; but we must accepted it. Sorry, I believe that wrong interpretation – it does not say COULD be the Savior – BUT is the Savior.
Can you answer it? I cannot definitely answer it either – but it possibly hints to another “chance”...........
Believe me I in no way minimize the Cross – to me It is everything – For Jesus Christ (the Anointed Son of God) accomplished EVERYTHING that needs to be accomplished to restore my fellowship with God. BTW … it is death, burial, and resurrection – that accomplished everything … not just the cross.
Second – my comments were addressing the items brought out in the BOOK – in which he explained how he arrived at his conclusions…. Some of those conclusions make logical sense to me. Even Gary’s Conditionalism (from what I have read) makes sense. I can prove nothing about either subject, nor do I suspect I need to – since I am saved because my belief in Jesus Christ and what He did for me --- not because I read or have not read some Biblical scholar’s book.
IF you hear me claiming there is another way to God (other going through Jesus Christ) – then by all means correct me. If you hear me speculate – that such and such view or theory has logical merit – and you have serious doubts – by all means bring it to light.
So when you say "I truly see your above comments as viewing from an earthly (and Godless) perspective"
I have to ask -- really -- in what way?
Was it a "godless" perspective to quote something from the book -- and agree that there is logical merit to what was said?
Sounds like we both agree IT IS ALL GOD and NONE of US -- when it comes to salvation?
What is wrong -- wondering if God will have two (or more) types of punishments when it comes to the "Joe Average Unbeliever" and "Mega Evil Unbeliever"?
I fall on the side -- I just do not know --- but based simply off the 1 Timothy verse -- I can conceive that it is possible they will be different.
Does that mean I go around spreading a theory I have that may or may not pan out?
HECK NO -- Every unbeliever will hear my testimony and why I think they should turn their life over to Jesus Christ!
By all means – speak up and show me any errors of understanding I may have…..
You may wish to check out my “especially” thread – not sure which sub-directory it is under…. But the gist of the matter is we DO NOT KNOW God and his overall plan. We only know what he has revealed to us so far. Which may or may not change in the future. Until Apostle Paul, the Bible contained nothing about GRACE ALONE – it might have been implied and even hinted at; but nothing spelled out like the Apostle Paul did for us. Will there be more revealed in the future?
So when we have passages like 1Timothy 4:10 – “That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.”
We have to wonder – just what does that mean – “Savior of All People”….
Yes, yes some want to interpret to mean that God provided a way for all people to be saved; but we must accepted it. Sorry, I believe that wrong interpretation – it does not say COULD be the Savior – BUT is the Savior.
Can you answer it? I cannot definitely answer it either – but it possibly hints to another “chance”...........
Believe me I in no way minimize the Cross – to me It is everything – For Jesus Christ (the Anointed Son of God) accomplished EVERYTHING that needs to be accomplished to restore my fellowship with God. BTW … it is death, burial, and resurrection – that accomplished everything … not just the cross.
Second – my comments were addressing the items brought out in the BOOK – in which he explained how he arrived at his conclusions…. Some of those conclusions make logical sense to me. Even Gary’s Conditionalism (from what I have read) makes sense. I can prove nothing about either subject, nor do I suspect I need to – since I am saved because my belief in Jesus Christ and what He did for me --- not because I read or have not read some Biblical scholar’s book.
IF you hear me claiming there is another way to God (other going through Jesus Christ) – then by all means correct me. If you hear me speculate – that such and such view or theory has logical merit – and you have serious doubts – by all means bring it to light.
So when you say "I truly see your above comments as viewing from an earthly (and Godless) perspective"
I have to ask -- really -- in what way?
Was it a "godless" perspective to quote something from the book -- and agree that there is logical merit to what was said?
Sounds like we both agree IT IS ALL GOD and NONE of US -- when it comes to salvation?
What is wrong -- wondering if God will have two (or more) types of punishments when it comes to the "Joe Average Unbeliever" and "Mega Evil Unbeliever"?
I fall on the side -- I just do not know --- but based simply off the 1 Timothy verse -- I can conceive that it is possible they will be different.
Does that mean I go around spreading a theory I have that may or may not pan out?
HECK NO -- Every unbeliever will hear my testimony and why I think they should turn their life over to Jesus Christ!
First KJS let me say that I went back a re-read my post and apologize as I didnt mean the "Godless" comment to say that specifically as "you were" rather when/if I think that way I remove God from the equation and it makes sense to me. I do believe that is how the unbelieving and (perhaps misguided) world sees eternity. That God would be "fair" based on how they live their lives absent the saving knowledge of Christ. My apologies for that as a newbie on this forum
I am new to the forum and have not seen the "especially" thread but will look for it. I am open to hearing other perspectives BUT am quite cautious as there are many false doctrines in the Christian world (not accusing) and I cant allow my faith to become shipwrecked. In your note above you say we "<i>DO NOT KNOW God and his overall plan</i>". Again not having read your thread, i do not know the context, but on the surface of that statement alone I would have to disagree. We know exactly what we need to know about God, His (unmerited) love for us. He has shown this as well as His redemptive plan throughout the entire history of mankind as revealed (to us) in His word. His revelations to Abraham, Noah, Moses, the prophets, the apostles, Paul and so on were quite spectacle. I marvel at some passage when I read them. I put myself in their shoes and realize I would likely soil myself if a burning bush spoke to me, or Gabriel appeared delivering a message! I dont think that his message changes in the future. What we may find out in the future about what he has already told us may change, for example Rev 12 and the likelihood of the upcoming stellar alignment which (I believe) fulfills prophecy. Do you really not see God's grace all throughout the OT? The people of Israel committed acts of harlotry, idolatry and the like for centuries and every time they repented, Gods grace was available. Not absent consequence for their transgression, but nonetheless, He showed mercy and grace.
Your take on Christ being the Savior of all people is an interesting turn and I do believe He is and yes I believe each and every person is confronted with that truth and must make a decision or choice. Again not having read other commentary or threads yet perhaps my view is a bit limited on this (perhaps not-IDK). Paul also tells us in Romans 1:18-23 "no excuses". God reveals himself to all, each person in some way whether by me or you or nature, or divinely, or some other means He reaches out. Each and every one of us has to respond to the offer. We can accept the gift or reject it. God knows our decision before we make it, but we still have to make that decision regardless.
<i>BTW … it is death, burial, and resurrection – that accomplished everything … not just the cross.</i> Totally agree, the cross was the atonement for all which is what my comment was geared towards. Again didnt mean for that to sound as if you didnt think that...I speak with mostly unbelievers and they simply don't believe this, so my approach was quite off as I was in that mindset.
Lastly ... I know a man about 25 yrs my senior who says "I read the bible once every year" who has a similar take. He believes that God visited him in a succession of dreams and revealed to him His plan. This person says his dream(s) were that all people were as the sand on the beach and God said to him "who owns the sand, Me or the enemy?" Then God told him "do you really think I will let him have most of the sand?" Then this person said to me read the bible as though you were God, from His vantage point with that understanding, and you'll be surprised. I must admit this first struck me as heresy. Why? I am one who (and you may be as well) says "I dont trust anyone elses vision, dreams or revelations to live my life by or base my faith on." Dreams, visions and the like are nice and may mean something to that person but if they arent in line with scripture, then theres and issue. I dont see that being scriptural (at least yet) but it is a good point. Why would God want/allow 90% (or whatever high percentage) of the human race to perish? I really dont think He does "want" that. However I often go back to a question I cant figure out "why did He (originally) pick the Jews?" Why not some other race. Of course I'd end up with the same question if He did, LOL. I think i'm rambling now....Mike
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
EnochWalked: Is this news intended to prepare the narrative that Iran is responsible for a missile destroying the mosque? Then maybe Jordan would give their blessing for MBS to build a new "multi-faith" structure there. Does Netanyahu want Iran to fire more missiles?
Apr 17, 2024 21:28:16 GMT -6
EnochWalked: Do "basic rights" include the right to bring a "temporary" altar onto the mount and carry out rituals there? Anyway, it's April 18th in Israel now, so the next sunset there will I think mark the time for selecting paschal lambs. Red heifer sacrifice too?
Apr 17, 2024 21:33:13 GMT -6
EnochWalked: www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-797737 "Iranian commander warns Tehran could review its 'nuclear doctrine' amid Israeli threats". If the Saudis took control of Temple Mount (with Israeli help), might Iran target it with a nuke just out of spite?
Apr 18, 2024 17:00:31 GMT -6
EnochWalked: “We are hoping that soon the Third Temple will be built there, and we’ll be able to eat there from the Passover sacrifices.” (The source is biased, and the quote is possibly mistranslated, but it's not an unexpected thing for an MK to say nowadays).
Apr 18, 2024 17:09:11 GMT -6
yardstick: wasnt the passover supposed to be celebrated in the home?
Apr 18, 2024 18:19:53 GMT -6
EnochWalked: Good point, yardstick. I think this might be an allusion to Deuteronomy 16:16 though: "Three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord your God in the place which He chooses: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, ..." interpreted as the Temple.
Apr 18, 2024 20:56:10 GMT -6
EnochWalked: www.yahoo.com/news/iran-may-reconsider-nuclear-doctrine-134127569.html "Iran threatens to target Israeli nuke facilities; Middle East on 'precipice' of bigger war". The previous article mentioned strikes on/near Iran's nuke facilities too.
Apr 18, 2024 21:00:10 GMT -6
EnochWalked: www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-797846 "US stops UN from recognizing a Palestinian state through membership" "says an independent Palestinian state should be established through direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority"
Apr 18, 2024 21:01:44 GMT -6
EnochWalked: That's a nice idea in theory, but what incentive does Israel have to grant that recognition, even if the negotiations were to occur? The Biden administration is effectively giving Israel a veto at the UN, which may make EU members act unilaterally.
Apr 18, 2024 21:06:05 GMT -6