burt
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Post by burt on Sept 22, 2020 1:18:27 GMT -6
disciple, for sake of time and space I responded in italics to the quoted section. Thank you, Burt. My question is this. Is the source of this the Talmud [Jewish commentary on the OT /Tanakh] or where.? It's not a 'gotchya' question. Most every one here knows I'm a firm believer in the Feasts as God's divine prophetic calendar. But I try to interpret scripture with scripture and when I use something from the Talmud,or Jewish culture, it has to agree with or confirm scripture. I’ve never read nor seen a Talmud.About the other thing, you gave us several scriptures, but nothing I could see that shows we are not caught up/ raptured. I never stated nor suggested that those alive wouldn’t be caught up, only that Scripture shows the timing to be at the “telos”.- In Revelation 4, we have a Pre-trib rapture picture. According to inference by the doctrines of men.
- Chapters 1-4, John is writing about/ talking to real churches in Turkey.
- Then we have the door of heaven is opened. Yom ha Dalet, is one of the names for Feast of Trumpets - The Day the Door of the Heaven is opened.
- The shout of God and the voice says "Come up here." And then no more mention of the church until the end. Believers are mentioned throughout Revelation.
- Feast of Trumpets in Hebrew is Yom Teruah, and it is literally translated as Day of Shouting, or Day of Blasting. In Christ's parable of the wedding, The groom comes with a shout.
1 Thes. 4:15-17 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore, encourage one another with these words." This very passage speaks of the resurrection and catching away. “...caught up together...”. Paul states that those alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those asleep ....but will be caught up together with them in the clouds”
If Christians are not raptured before the tribulation, then Paul's words to encourage one another makes no sense. Sure it does, we will all need encouragement as we faithfully look to the time of our Redemption drawing nigh.
We have to ask ourselves a question, and there is only one answer. The choices are mutually exclusive. Either we believe Christ, the Apostle Paul and Apostle John and the OT prophets wrote things about the rapture and subsequent second coming to tell us so we could watch, know, OR we believe that all these writers intentionally meant to trick us, to deceive us. ?? Yeshua answered all in Matthew 24. The prophets most certainly laid everything out. Paul reiterated both. “Of the times and seasons I have no need to write”. They already knew these things, no need to re-teach them.
Your OR should be the doctrines and dogmas of men that have “added to” by creating their own timeline. To know who we are: Romans 9:24-26 Hosea 1 Ephesians 2:11-22 Exodus 12:38-51 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 Acts 7 Hebrews 8:8 Jeremiah 31:31 Ezekiel 37
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burt
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Post by burt on Sept 22, 2020 1:50:37 GMT -6
burt - I am not certain how often you do or will visit the site. As noted earlier it is nice to have you here and I would like to hear more of your understanding regarding your post. My current understanding is Jacob = Israel. What are you ascribing to Judah? Can you elaborate on this portion of your post a bit more for me? 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 Who was the Spiritual Drink that all our fathers drank? Exodus 12:38-50 Gentiles (mixed multitude) who showed faith in Yeshua (through Passover) became as “one born in the land”. Ephesians 2:8-19 We were once gentiles and aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the covenants. But by the blood of Yeshua (THE Passover Lamb and Spiritual Drink) we are now fellow heirs. Romans 9:24-26 Hosea 1 Hebrews 8:8 and Jeremiah 31:31 Ezekiel 37 Luke 1:30-33 Who is Yeshua’s house? Ephesians 2:19 Judah (Jews; House of Judah) is only 1 part of that house Ephraim (House of Israel) is the other part of that house Ephesians 2:14-22 Paul knew this well, as he walked by the Spirit
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Post by venge on Sept 22, 2020 6:40:14 GMT -6
burt - I am not certain how often you do or will visit the site. As noted earlier it is nice to have you here and I would like to hear more of your understanding regarding your post. My current understanding is Jacob = Israel. What are you ascribing to Judah? Can you elaborate on this portion of your post a bit more for me? 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 Who was the Spiritual Drink that all our fathers drank? Exodus 12:38-50 Gentiles (mixed multitude) who showed faith in Yeshua (through Passover) became as “one born in the land”. Ephesians 2:8-19 We were once gentiles and aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the covenants. But by the blood of Yeshua (THE Passover Lamb and Spiritual Drink) we are now fellow heirs. Romans 9:24-26 Hosea 1 Hebrews 8:8 and Jeremiah 31:31 Ezekiel 37 Luke 1:30-33 Who is Yeshua’s house? Ephesians 2:19 Judah (Jews; House of Judah) is only 1 part of that house Ephraim (House of Israel) is the other part of that house Ephesians 2:14-22 Paul knew this well, as he walked by the Spirit Hello Burt, There are many verses you have quoted that I agree on and have said so on this site. But I to have a question following up on mike I agree we are the wild olive branch grafted into Israel and therefore...we are Israel (that doesnt remove the Jew in Israel from God but it brings us into his house whereby we cry Abba). I also agree we are Jew's...for a Jew is one inwardly not outwardly; though there be some who say they are Jew's and are not. Also, dont let me question come off as I am questioning you. I am humbly trying to understand something and would like to ask so I can seek it in the word. I read the 2 verses you used to support your conclusion that modern day Israel is Judah and we are "ephraim"...hence we are Israel. Obviously, symbolic Israel is God's people that obey his law made up of Jew's and Gentiles. Just as the Jews need to soften their heart to open their eyes and ears, many who call themselves Christian from Gentile nations also need the same softening in order to see past their flesh. Where does it specifically say or is there a commentary you used that says Israel is Judah in that passage and those of faith are Israel. Do you take that scripture to be literal or figurative or another means? Did the "later days" used from when it was written refer to 10AD as an example or does it only refer to the far future...If we can agree on that, I think everyone would agree there is no separation of Israel in the future....we are all one family under God. If that is true, then who indeed are Judah and Israel? EDIT: Think I understand your position now. I started googling the idea and came across a website. Tell me if this is the reason: Jeremiah 31:31 says that the new covenant would be for the house of Judah and the house of Israel. But later in the verse, God says the house of Israel is the one that writes his law in their hearts. That is the Christian Church thereby making us Israel. The implication is that the Jew was given the new covenant but kept the Old. Therefore, they are Judah.
Jeremiah 33:17 says Israel has a King and we do as Christ is our King. The Jews have no King.
Is this what you mean?
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Post by venge on Sept 22, 2020 8:35:48 GMT -6
burtI have a follow up question if that’s ok. If true Israel is the Church, which will encompass Gentiles and Jews later on, does the saying - he who blesses Israel will be blessed apply to those under the New Covenant or those still under the old and deemed enemies for the Gospel’s sake? I think many have been taught it’s National Israel. But God blesses those who do his work and those that obey him. The Jews currently do not do that. I’m not raising Christians as better or luckier...rather not any “Christian”, but only he who does the will of the Father who is called brother, sister or mother to Christ.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 22, 2020 20:27:28 GMT -6
Hello venge, I have a few questions for clarification - I promise, I won't argue or debate - I'm just trying to understand what you mean.
Venge said - "I agree we are the wild olive branch grafted into Israel and therefore...we are Israel (that doesnt remove the Jew in Israel from God but it brings us into his house whereby we cry Abba). I also agree we are Jew's...for a Jew is one inwardly not outwardly; though there be some who say they are Jew's and are not.
I read the 2 verses you used to support your conclusion that modern day Israel is Judah and we are "ephraim"...hence we are Israel. Obviously, symbolic Israel is God's people that obey his law made up of Jew's and Gentiles.
I also agree with you that Gentiles are the wild olive branch grafted into the vine. ;-) Do you see Israel/ Jews as being distinctly different from the church, and do you see Israel as having a unique role in End Times events, described in Daniel or Revelation, Joel - such as Ezek 38 war, or AC, or Gog of Magog War, rapture, 144,000 witnesses.? [I'm simply trying to give broad events as an example of what i mean by end times events.
If so, can you comment on that, or maybe give an example of how they are different? Thank you my brother.
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Post by venge on Sept 23, 2020 7:44:10 GMT -6
Hello venge, I have a few questions for clarification - I promise, I won't argue or debate - I'm just trying to understand what you mean.
Venge said - "I agree we are the wild olive branch grafted into Israel and therefore...we are Israel (that doesnt remove the Jew in Israel from God but it brings us into his house whereby we cry Abba). I also agree we are Jew's...for a Jew is one inwardly not outwardly; though there be some who say they are Jew's and are not.
I read the 2 verses you used to support your conclusion that modern day Israel is Judah and we are "ephraim"...hence we are Israel. Obviously, symbolic Israel is God's people that obey his law made up of Jew's and Gentiles.
I also agree with you that Gentiles are the wild olive branch grafted into the vine. ;-) Do you see Israel/ Jews as being distinctly different from the church, and do you see Israel as having a unique role in End Times events, described in Daniel or Revelation, Joel - such as Ezek 38 war, or AC, or Gog of Magog War, rapture, 144,000 witnesses.? [I'm simply trying to give broad events as an example of what i mean by end times events.
If so, can you comment on that, or maybe give an example of how they are different? Thank you my brother.
disciple4life , Good morning. I believe God as a spirit, who wants us to worship in the spirit, means "Israel" itself is spiritual Israel. For readers that don't post on the forum, Jacob's name was made Israel and I understand many say that many believe because he was the father of the 12 tribes, it applies to physical Israel. But, Paul explains in his letters to us what a true Jew is in the spirit and also what Israel is in the spirit. So I think some steer away from this because they are afraid to be called heretics as if they believe the Church to receive all the promises, instead of the Jews. That is an incorrect doctrine and not biblical. But, God continues to work with both the church and the Jews today, yesterday and in the future. Both peoples (Jew and Gentile) are brought into his family called "Israel".
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 23, 2020 8:18:11 GMT -6
Thank you so much, venge. I really appreciate your comments and clarification. 😉👍
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burt
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Post by burt on Sept 23, 2020 20:06:57 GMT -6
venge Avatar Sept 22, 2020 7:40:14 GMT -5 venge said: Also, dont let me question come off as I am questioning you. I am humbly trying to understand something and would like to ask so I can seek it in the word. I read the 2 verses you used to support your conclusion that modern day Israel is Judah and we are "ephraim"...hence we are Israel. Obviously, symbolic Israel is God's people that obey his law made up of Jew's and Gentiles. Just as the Jews need to soften their heart to open their eyes and ears, many who call themselves Christian from Gentile nations also need the same softening in order to see past their flesh. Where does it specifically say or is there a commentary you used that says Israel is Judah in that passage and those of faith are Israel. Do you take that scripture to be literal or figurative or another means? Did the "later days" used from when it was written refer to 10AD as an example or does it only refer to the far future...If we can agree on that, I think everyone would agree there is no separation of Israel in the future....we are all one family under God. If that is true, then who indeed are Judah and Israel? _____________________________________ Good evening brother, We should always question each other, that’s how we reason together for the sake of the brethren. Paul stated in Romans 9 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved, and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Paul describes 2 groups: 1. Those called of the Jews - The term Jew refers to someone from the tribe of Judah, and after I Kings 11-12 the tribe of Judah is known as the House of Judah. YaHoVaH gave one tribe to Rehoboam so “that David my servant may have a light alway before Me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen Me to put My name there.” I Kings continues to develop the distinction between the House of Judah (Jews) and the House of Israel (Joseph through Ephraim). Paul makes a statement of ID in Romans 9:3 when he points out that the Jews (House of Judah) were entrusted with the oracles of YaHoVaH. That doesn’t mean that they followed them according to the Spirit, but rather they have kept the knowledge alive. So, when we see the people in the land today that know the Sabbath, that know the Moedim, that know the Scriptural ways of telling and keeping time, that know the Torah, that know the oracles of YaHoVaH, then per the Scriptures we can ID these people as the Jews or (House of Judah). The tribe given to Rehoboam at the split of the nation back in I Kings 11 and on. 2. Those called of the gentile nations - “gentile” is not a race of people, but rather a term to describe any and all nations separate and foreign from Israel, specifically in worship of the one and only true Elohim, YaHoVaH. These are the unbelieving nations of the world. Immediately after the statement “…but also of the Gentiles” Paul references and associates those called “of the Gentiles” with Hosea. Hosea 1 tells the story of the House of Israel (Ephraim-non Jews) becoming “not my people” and having “no mercy”. Hosea 8:8 “Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.” The House of Israel was assimilated into the gentile nations to the point they didn’t, and still don’t completely, know who they really are. Hosea 9:17 …they shall be wanderers among the gentile nations, and Hosea 9:3 …they shall not dwell in the Lord’s land. But…then at the end of Hosea 1 we see Paul’s reference from Romans 9… I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved, and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. That is the House of Judah and the House of Israel (Ephraim) together as the whole house of Israel under Yeshua, our ONE King. Reference this to Ezekiel 37:11-28. I also encourage you to read all of Hosea, and especially look at chapters 11-14. Wow! Our Elohim IS truly wonderful! So, this brings us to Paul in Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Blindness in part… House of Judah – currently the majority are still blind to the truth that Yeshua already came as the Messiah. They have maintained the oracles, and some have had the blindness removed, but this is Judah’s (Jews) blindness. House of Israel (Ephraim) – currently the majority are still blind to the truth of who we really are. That the Torah is for us; the promises are for us; we are citizens and heirs of the House of Jacob. We have kept that which was given, that Yeshua IS our salvation and Messiah. That He perfectly fulfilled Passover as THE Passover Lamb. When the fulness of the gentiles be come in…And so ALL Israel shall be saved. Genesis 48 Jacob blesses Ephraim and Mannasseh (would love to start another discussion on the Melchizedek with this one). Vs 19 Jacob states that Ephraim would become a “fulness of the gentiles”. Ephesians 2:14-22 Just as a side note, check out Hosea 13:13. Would love to here your take on that, in context. Love ya, brother!
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Post by venge on Sept 24, 2020 7:01:00 GMT -6
burt, " The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come on him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children." 1. The sorrows of a travailing woman: Israel is the women 2. shall come on him: Ephraim is the son 3. he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children: Ephraim is unwise because he does not come out at birth, nor does he go back into the womb. What he does it causes more pain and suffering for the mother which can lead to both their demise. I suppose that Israel (either the Church or the Jews or just people of God) will suffer birth pangs in the form of War, pestilence, famine and death which increase over time. Ephraim, as from the wilderness and Israel, causes more unneeded suffering to come on both of them because Ephraim does fully "break forth" as it were. It seems that Ephraim is "neither hot nor cold, but luke warm" as he stays between the dark of the womb and the light of the breaking forth. Such a miserable way to look at it, if this is true, and a complex state of imagery. If a people who are spiritually Ephraim, do not come all the way out, they will never be fully in the light. That is a hard saying when we have faith. I suppose that doesnt remove faith, but to not move past light and dark and be stuck as it were midway...that is depressing. Very depressing...It makes me think back to Daniel when he cries to God and makes atonement for his people saying "we have all sinned..." "trespassed against you" etc..Perhaps Israel is not doing all she could, but then that would be works. Though much of this makes sense, I need to pray about it and research it more. Some of this is not new to me, others, I have not thought of in this regard and it is as "deep" as an ocean. There are some who say the 12 tribes are 12 Jewish tribes. Others say the 12 tribes are not Jews, or messianic Jews, but Christians. Very little proof is on either topic and most who espouse this information do not provide adequate scripture IMO. We can agree (you and I) that the Church is part of true spiritual Israel. But what of tribes that are lost among the nations? Are you saying you believe that they are indeed the Church?
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burt
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Post by burt on Sept 26, 2020 1:26:12 GMT -6
Sept 24, 2020 8:01:00 GMT -5 venge said:
burt,
There are some who say the 12 tribes are 12 Jewish tribes. Others say the 12 tribes are not Jews, or messianic Jews, but Christians. Very little proof is on either topic and most who espouse this information do not provide adequate scripture IMO. We can agree (you and I) that the Church is part of true spiritual Israel. But what of tribes that are lost among the nations? Are you saying you believe that they are indeed the Church?
________________________________________________________________________________________ Good morning brother, and Shabbat Shalom!
Let’s look at Acts 7:38 (speaking of Moses)
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Here we see the “church”, or better the “called out group of citizens” was at Mt Sinai with Moses.
Paul reiterates this in 1 Corinthians 10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Yeshua.
At that time, the “church”, or called out group, was still one united 12 tribe entity. The House of Jacob. Even the strangers, or mixed multitude from the gentiles, had become a citizen of The House of Jacob when they showed faith in Yeshua. (Exodus 12 and 1 Corinthians 10)
Then I Kings 11 happens and the family is split up. The Northern Kingdom (House of Israel ID’d by Ephraim) and the Southern Kingdom (House of Judah, or Jews). The House of Israel (Ephraim) is divorced, scattered, and sown into the gentile nations, and “loses” their identity. Hosea 1
In that same passage, and throughout the rest of Hosea, we see that eventually the House of Israel (Ephraim) will be drawn back to YaHoVaH and be called “sons of the Living God”.
Isaiah 11:10
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that YaHoVaH shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Now back to Paul,
Paul states in Romans 9, that they are not all Israel that are of Israel. This is because being a “physical” Israelite profits you nothing without grace through faith, and walking by the Spirit. Walking in the flesh, or following Judaism or any other sect, doctrine or dogma of man is not the means of redemption. It’s not the children of flesh that are counted as the seed, but the children of promise, the ones of faith. Romans 9 is also the passage where we see Paul explain who those “from among the gentiles” are called, as he points back to Hosea.
Ephesians 2
Paul explains how we were ONCE (past tense) gentiles, or better, of the gentile nations when we were unbelievers and without Yeshua. He also points out that we were strangers from the covenant and not citizens of the House of Jacob, or Israel. However, through Yeshua we are now fellow citizens (ekklesia is the “called out group of citizens”) of His people.
There has always been a remnant, from both houses. There will always be a remnant, from both houses. Eventually, Ezekiel 37 will be realized; Isaiah 11 will be realized; Ephesians 2 will be realized and restoration of YaHoVaH’s house will occur.
There has been and will only ever be one family – the house of Jacob. Citizens of that family are believers – children of faith not flesh- and that family will continue to grow from both houses until all is accomplished and the two are made one again.
There is not the House of Jacob, AND……
The new, or better, renewed covenant is with this House of Jacob. (Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8).
There’s not a group, or entity, that is separate from the House of Jacob (by faith not flesh).
The entire Scriptures are about YaHoVaH and His family. Anyone can be a part of that family by grace through faith – fellow citizens and heirs of the promises. They are added to the roles, just as it said in Exodus “as one born in the land” I.E. and family member with all rights and privileges and inheritance. All by grace through faith. We don’t follow His instructions (Torah) out of a sense of gaining righteousness, we follow His instructions out of love for Him as our Father, Creator, Saviour. We follow His Torah by the Spirit, not the flesh (Judaism and any other man devised denomination, sect, doctrine or dogma). Those are the things that have laid burdens on His people that they cannot bear, but His yoke (Torah) is easy and His burden light. THAT is what was nailed to the cross, the doctrines and dogmas of men.
Rejoice, brother! We are meant to be kings, priests, and first born to THE LIVING ELOHIM! King of kings, the Melchizedek of melchizedeks.
Humbly in His love
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 26, 2020 5:43:44 GMT -6
Thank you, dear brother, for these words of precision in explaining what I have come to know these past few years, though you are more versed in explaining it. This can't be more to the point of what the church body has been shown to us from the days of old. The events and peoples and teachings of covenants and promises of the Old Testament accounts always were to show us Jesus through them...Yeshua! It is why we look to His Return through the Feasts, and we seek the meaning of some of the various celebrations to understand.
Maranatha!
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Post by Natalie on Sept 27, 2020 11:25:17 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Sept 27, 2020 12:03:56 GMT -6
The entire Scriptures are about YaHoVaH and His family. Anyone can be a part of that family by grace through faith – fellow citizens and heirs of the promises. They are added to the roles, just as it said in Exodus “as one born in the land” I.E. and family member with all rights and privileges and inheritance. All by grace through faith. We don’t follow His instructions (Torah) out of a sense of gaining righteousness, we follow His instructions out of love for Him as our Father, Creator, Saviour. We follow His Torah by the Spirit, not the flesh (Judaism and any other man devised denomination, sect, doctrine or dogma). Those are the things that have laid burdens on His people that they cannot bear, but His yoke (Torah) is easy and His burden light. THAT is what was nailed to the cross, the doctrines and dogmas of men. Rejoice, brother! We are meant to be kings, priests, and first born to THE LIVING ELOHIM! King of kings, the Melchizedek of melchizedeks. Humbly in His love Just want to address a couple things. First, it was not the doctrines and dogmas of men that were nailed to the cross.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
It was our debt to God because of our sin that was nailed to the cross.
Jesus's yoke is not the Torah. The verse says, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from Me." (Matt 11:29) Yoked together means that you are connected - walking side by side. They were yoked to the Law or yoked to the Pharisees' teachings. Now they could be yoked to Christ. "Learn from Me" He would teach them what it means to be in relationship with God.
Acts 15 The Pharisees come and say that the new (Gentile) believers must be circumcised and ordered to keep the Law. Peter says, "Why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" Acts 15:10 (the yoke of keeping the Law/Torah) He goes on to say, "Therefore my judgement is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. Acts 15:19-20.
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Post by Natalie on Sept 27, 2020 14:17:37 GMT -6
burt , another point I wanted to address... Some problems with saying that the church is the physical House of Israel... Jesus said (Matthew 10:5) to His disciples, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Your position is that the Gentiles are the house of Israel, but it seems that Jesus doesn't see it that way. (see also Matt 15:24 “He answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.'” The lady seeking healing was Gentile.) Romans 9:30 “What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.” Gentiles are separate from Israel. Gentiles have never had the Law to pursue. (Romans 2:14 “ ...For when Gentiles, who do not have the law...”) “with the division of the Davidic Kingdom into two entities after Solomon’s reign a mass migration from the Northern Kingdom of Israel to the Southern Kingdom of Judah took place because of the Temple at Jerusalem and the significance of the city itself. To stop this migration Jeroboam, the Northern King, built a rival Temple in Samaria with pagan rituals. Scripture affirms that he caused Israel to sin thereby. (1Kings 12:25-33) Therefore in the south the tribes mingled, lived together and finally integrated. Slowly but surely the term Jew became a generic term for all of Israel. In 722 BC the Northern Kingdom is conquered by the Assyrians and taken into exile. This exile is to the north and east of Israel meaning that when the Southern Kingdom was conquered by the Babylonians in 586 BC the people were carried off into the same region. Here again they mingled and integrated and became finally known as Jews. (Esther 3:6; Nehemiah 1:6) So, the ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom were lost only in the sense that they lost their tribal identity. They were never lost in the sense that they vanished from history. “ (two paragraphs from malcolmhedding.com/teachings/the-ephraim-doctrine/ Malcolm Hedding is involved with the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem) The NT has so many examples that the Gospel was to go to all nations. Acts 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable.” This whole verse would have to be changed if it really meant that only Judah and Ephraim will be accepted. If the church is Ephraim, wouldn't the NT mention this? Wouldn't there be something to suggest that the Good News was for the Jew and the lost tribes? Wouldn't Paul's mission have been to gather the lost tribes instead of just carry the Good News to the Gentiles?
I liked this that I found:
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Post by Natalie on Sept 27, 2020 18:29:35 GMT -6
I did want to say that I agree that Gentile believers are grafted in and become part of Spiritual Israel, Spiritual Jews. Christ makes one man out of believers from Jewish descent and from every other nation. He has broken down the wall between them. It creates something new. But, the church never becomes one (or any) of the 12 tribes. The tribes are a national identity. To become one of the tribes, you would have to marry into one of them (like Rahab or Ruth) or be born into one of them.
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