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Post by venge on Nov 6, 2020 13:51:46 GMT -6
The notion I have been pondering lately is 'How will the Man of Sin be revealed'? The only blatantly obvious scriptural reference I have been able to find to answer that question is the AoD... In that context, the Man of Sin is most certainly revealed. To everyone. Whether or not a person recognizes the act the way we do. It occurs to me that the timing of that event does not preclude a pre-trib harpazo view. Nor a mid-trib. Nor a pre-wrath (if we define wrath as the Great Tribulation). If the 'wrath' that believers are to be saved from by harpazo is defined as that portion of the Tribulation referred to as the Great Tribulation; then I believe such a notion also does not preclude a pre-trib, mid-trib or pre-wrath view.Problem is, the biggest time we hear about great persecution is Matthew 24. Christ says after that persecution... Daniel 12:1 links it to a resurrection Revelation 7 says these are from all over the world and they lived for Christ. So these are Christians that go through great tribulation. They arnt removed from it. And the answer is found in verse 14 Those that go through the great tribulation were from all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples. So they are everyone and anyone. And they are were of faith in Christ. Now, we can do a word search for "thlipsis" versus "orge" or "thumos", but thlipsis is never God's wrath. If this is true, which I believe to be accurate beyond a doubt regardless of what theory one holds to, Matthew 24:29 proves that after the church is persecuted, Christ comes back to save his true church before his wrath on the world. Easily, Matthew 24 and Rev 7 share a link together. That doesnt make them concurrent with each other, but it shows that the event happens in both and that sometime after the persecution is the return of Christ; whether near it or a little ways off. The astral events show the DotL's wrath happens after it in Joel, not before it which would be great tribulation. So we have Joel and the definition of thlipsis for proof that God's wrath is not during that time.
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Post by mike on Nov 6, 2020 13:54:32 GMT -6
yardstick also something to ponder for you Paul shows Gods wisdom here is given to those who trust in Him in faith, contrary to the 'wise' of this world. More wisdom verses in 1 Cor 2 as well as many other texts So when this happens who shall understand? The unbelieving lost? or the believing church?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2020 16:30:30 GMT -6
So the saints under the alter are the robed multitude. Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been. Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. I guess our only hope is to be represented by the 24 elders. That's what some people insist. However, surely we can come up with 24 great men to be the elders. We have 12 apostles, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, David, Paul... IIRC, the mother of James wanted her kids to sit next to Christ's throne. What if Heaven is a Council with Christ surrounded by the 24 elders, whom He handpicked throughout history? I know John himself would be one of the leaders in this case, but perhaps their identities were hidden from him. This site says the elders are the raptured church. www.gotquestions.org/24-elders.html
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Post by yardstick on Nov 6, 2020 16:50:15 GMT -6
The notion I have been pondering lately is 'How will the Man of Sin be revealed'? The only blatantly obvious scriptural reference I have been able to find to answer that question is the AoD... In that context, the Man of Sin is most certainly revealed. To everyone. Whether or not a person recognizes the act the way we do. It occurs to me that the timing of that event does not preclude a pre-trib harpazo view. Nor a mid-trib. Nor a pre-wrath (if we define wrath as the Great Tribulation). If the 'wrath' that believers are to be saved from by harpazo is defined as that portion of the Tribulation referred to as the Great Tribulation; then I believe such a notion also does not preclude a pre-trib, mid-trib or pre-wrath view.Problem is, the biggest time we hear about great persecution is Matthew 24. Christ says after that persecution... Daniel 12:1 links it to a resurrection Revelation 7 says these are from all over the world and they lived for Christ. So these are Christians that go through great tribulation. They arnt removed from it. And the answer is found in verse 14 Those that go through the great tribulation were from all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples. So they are everyone and anyone. And they are were of faith in Christ. Now, we can do a word search for "thlipsis" versus "orge" or "thumos", but thlipsis is never God's wrath. If this is true, which I believe to be accurate beyond a doubt regardless of what theory one holds to, Matthew 24:29 proves that after the church is persecuted, Christ comes back to save his true church before his wrath on the world. Easily, Matthew 24 and Rev 7 share a link together. That doesnt make them concurrent with each other, but it shows that the event happens in both and that sometime after the persecution is the return of Christ; whether near it or a little ways off. The astral events show the DotL's wrath happens after it in Joel, not before it which would be great tribulation. So we have Joel and the definition of thlipsis for proof that God's wrath is not during that time. Do you make a distinction between those who are saved prior to a harpazo, versus those who are saved after? OR are you suggesting that all believers regardless of their date of salvation, who have not already passed (died) will be participating in the 7 year period inclusive of the Great Tribulation? From reviewing Matt 24, I do not believe it is chronological from top to bottom. I think it is topically grouped. By subject matter. I have seen a lot of this style in other prophecy. Revelation for example.
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Post by mike on Nov 6, 2020 17:56:34 GMT -6
So the saints under the alter are the robed multitude. Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been. Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. I guess our only hope is to be represented by the 24 elders. That's what some people insist. However, surely we can come up with 24 great men to be the elders. We have 12 apostles, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, David, Paul... IIRC, the mother of James wanted her kids to sit next to Christ's throne. What if Heaven is a Council with Christ surrounded by the 24 elders, whom He handpicked throughout history? I know John himself would be one of the leaders in this case, but perhaps their identities were hidden from him. This site says the elders are the raptured church. www.gotquestions.org/24-elders.htmlNot sure I see the elders that way at this time. However I do consider this as another possibility for the elders... Ps 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
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Post by Natalie on Nov 6, 2020 19:13:04 GMT -6
Would handpicking 24 men throughout history be showing favoritism? ( boymaker ,) Here are questions that I have been thinking on: What if the rapture isn't even depicted in Revelation? And where does the Church go after the Rapture? the throne room or the New Jerusalem? What place is being prepared for us? I see John as a type, being called to heaven after the church age, but I don't see the Church as a whole being raptured in Revelation. I also think the 24 elders are heavenly beings, not the church. I know some see the Church in Rev 7:9-13, but the wording "these are the ones coming out of the great tribulation" doesn't sound like the rapture to me but that they are coming as they are killed (or die somehow) during that period of time. He doesn't phrase it "have come" but "coming." I do see how people see it as the rapture - believers from all over the world before the throne.
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Post by yardstick on Nov 6, 2020 19:14:57 GMT -6
So the saints under the alter are the robed multitude. Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been. Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. I guess our only hope is to be represented by the 24 elders. That's what some people insist. However, surely we can come up with 24 great men to be the elders. We have 12 apostles, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, David, Paul... IIRC, the mother of James wanted her kids to sit next to Christ's throne. What if Heaven is a Council with Christ surrounded by the 24 elders, whom He handpicked throughout history? I know John himself would be one of the leaders in this case, but perhaps their identities were hidden from him. This site says the elders are the raptured church. www.gotquestions.org/24-elders.htmlNot sure I see the elders that way at this time. However I do consider this as another possibility for the elders... Ps 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: Did you see further down in that Chapter? This description reminds me of the fallen angels that were cast to the earth during the Trib... they arent mortal = they arent human... This part here looks an awful lot like what happens during the Great Trib, right before the second coming... A lot of mythological characters known as 'gods' could be interpreted as fallen angels... if anyone has seen the latest 'clash of the titans' movie, there is a scene that takes place in Tartarus where those imprisoned there are released: Revelation 9:1-2
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Post by yardstick on Nov 6, 2020 19:21:55 GMT -6
Would handpicking 24 men throughout history be showing favoritism? ( boymaker ,) Here are questions that I have been thinking on: What if the rapture isn't even depicted in Revelation? And where does the Church go after the Rapture? the throne room or the New Jerusalem? What place is being prepared for us? I see John as a type, being called to heaven after the church age, but I don't see the Church as a whole being raptured in Revelation. I also think the 24 elders are heavenly beings, not the church. I know some see the Church in Rev 7:9-13, but the wording "these are the ones coming out of the great tribulation" doesn't sound like the rapture to me but that they are coming as they are killed (or die somehow) during that period of time. He doesn't phrase it "have come" but "coming." I do see how people see it as the rapture - believers from all over the world before the throne. It is difficult to tell whether the elders are literal people, or a symbolic representation... Has anyone done a search for the term 'twenty-four' (or 24) to see whether there are any explanatory passages that might shed light on the significance of 24, or similar?
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Post by Natalie on Nov 6, 2020 19:23:53 GMT -6
I haven't but I know we have a thread somewhere discussing the 24 elders.
Edit: One argument I have is that if all the other numbers in Revelation are to be taken literally (7 seals, 7 angels, 4 creatures, etc) then surely 24 elders is 24.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 6, 2020 19:46:01 GMT -6
well, it is twice 12... 12 is a number of judicial concern in God's ecomny. to quote:Twelve can be found in 187 places in God's word. Revelation alone has 22 occurrences of the number. The meaning of 12, which is considered a perfect number, is that it symbolizes God's power and authority, as well as serving as a perfect governmental foundation. It can also symbolize completeness or the nation of Israel as a whole.
I see the elders a complete judicial Body, that is a proof text concerning the Crucifixion of the Lamb (Man child of God) and the redemption of Mankind in general. Notice it is not 12... twelve... 24 is 2 x twelve. two is The number 2 conveys the meaning of a union, division or the verification of facts by witnesses. A man and woman, though two in number, are made one in marriage (Genesis 2:23 - 24). There is also the union between Christ and the church (see 1Corinthians 12).
this tells me NOTHING about what we are seeing physical NOW. It tells me God's plan as was and is and is to be ahead in His Time. It tells me all along He is restoring all things to Himself, via 1) a physical chosen and now 2) His Spiritual CHosen... each represented by a justified 12. The physical produced the Manchild, the Spiritual produced the Born Again Child..
One needs to look at what the 24 do thruout the Revealing, aka the vision given to John. This vision is about the REVEALING of Christ, not a book of destruction. Yes, destruction (be it our understanding) likely happens in holyywood versions, because people prefer to hide in darkness then to be exposed by the Light (which is the judgement, John 3)
But what we are seeing in the throne room is a glimpse of God JUSTIFYING His waysin how He has been and will be doing things. He is showing us His court of Law. Remember: We are being accused. Accused of what? well, anything and everything, including idol worship other than of God. John is seeing the court room set up to justify the Jew and gentile. This scene in heaven is not about the rapture, but about the format of what is going on in heaven so as to give us Hope that He is control of the courtroom... imho
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Post by Natalie on Nov 6, 2020 19:55:27 GMT -6
interesting thoughts. We can also consider that Jesus is our mediator in that court. So, we do not have to fear the verdict.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 6, 2020 21:06:35 GMT -6
I have often thought that John used "the 24 elders" as a time marker to help us align Chapters 4, 11, and 19 in addition to the literal application of the text.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 6, 2020 21:42:17 GMT -6
I have often thought that John used "the 24 elders" as a time marker to help us align Chapters 4, 11, and 19 in addition to the literal application of the text. maybe so, boraddict, on the lining up of things, and there a songs and new songs sung... Literal application? Well, in the Throne room, Jesus is seen as a Lamb as if slain... 1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
This set of verses goes with what Natalie, was saying. But also, on earth we did not see a lion, nor a physical literal lamb, with multiple horns and eyes: 6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
Jesus is between the 4 and the 24... He is not above them or below them, He is AMONG or between them. Another connection spiritually. so going back to the elders, this is something that HEAVEN defines as a situation on earth. It is not A in heaven =A on earth, but A in heaven=these things on earth, and B= those things... the number of something adds or confirms the dimension of God's asignements. if divisible of 4's it pertains to creation/earthly ways and means perhaps. Things divisible of 3's or 7's is of God's divineness? Divisible of 6 pertaining to man perhaps?
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Post by boraddict on Nov 6, 2020 23:56:24 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , that sounds interesting and one thing that I especially liked was where you said "Jesus is between the 4 and the 24...." For some time now I have believed that he is one of the 4 as they (IMO) are listed in Rev. 1:1. However, I have never been able to acquire a resolution as to what the 24 might be. Please notice in Rev. 5:6 that it states that he (Jesus) is " in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts" KJV. If I am correct, he is on the throne with the Father and they are two of the four. Then in Verse 1:1 not only are the Father and Son listed but the angel and John as well. I think those four have brought us the BofR and that is part of the emphasis of the four. But the 24 is beyond my understand such that I do not have a theory at all as to who they might be. One thing that does stand out however is that at Rev. 7:13 the angel of Verse 1:1 that is interacting with John throughout the vision of the book is called an elder. Thus, if the angel is one of the four and he is an elder, then the 24 elders are also angels. I do have a theory as to whom that angel is; and, this brings me to the one possibility of whom the 24 might be. That, they are individuals such as Elijah whom have not died the mortal death. This would mean that there are 24 individuals that have not died the mortal death with no record of them except that of Elijah. I mean, that is a long shot but is does cross my mind as a possibility. Okay, so out on the limb a little further and since there is 144,000 divided into 12 groups of 12,000 and there are 24 elders then this gives us two elders per 12,000. Are these 24 elders the leaders of the 144,000? Leading 12 groups of 12,000 on exodus'? I do not think so, but the thought crossed my mind. I do think that the pre-trib rapture is an exodus and the mid is the gathering of saints and the post is the classic lifting saints off the earth for the surface to be burned. At any rate, the 24 elders seems to be literal (IMO). Oh, one last thing, Rev. 9:4 appears to be showing that while darkness covers the earth and the demons ravage mankind, those same demons can not hurt the saints whom have been sealed. And, this means that these saints are somewhere upon the earth. That is why I have come to the conclusion that the sealed are on an exodus. Secondly, since the sealed are sealed at the marriage, then perhaps they are not on an exodus in Verse 9:4 but looking for people to gather during and after the mid-point.
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Post by rt on Nov 7, 2020 7:43:46 GMT -6
So the saints under the alter are the robed multitude. Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been. Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. I guess our only hope is to be represented by the 24 elders. That's what some people insist. However, surely we can come up with 24 great men to be the elders. We have 12 apostles, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, David, Paul... IIRC, the mother of James wanted her kids to sit next to Christ's throne. What if Heaven is a Council with Christ surrounded by the 24 elders, whom He handpicked throughout history? I know John himself would be one of the leaders in this case, but perhaps their identities were hidden from him. This site says the elders are the raptured church. www.gotquestions.org/24-elders.htmlNot sure I see the elders that way at this time. However I do consider this as another possibility for the elders... Ps 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: So who exactly do you see these martyrs under the altar as being? Clearly they are believers, right? Why are they given white robes? What are these robes? And who are they that will be added to their number to complete them?
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