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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 9, 2020 9:01:51 GMT -6
but the Resurrection scripture says this: everyone in his order, Christ the First Fruits, then those that are His AT His Coming, then comes the end (post millenial) where Jesus hands the kingdom over to HIs Father.. but you raise my question again, are all the people dead when Christ sets foot? what about those who are alive and remaining after the wrath? You are telling me there are TWO resurrections of the dead in Christ BEFORE the millenial reign 1) the rapture, dead in christ rise first, then those of us remaining are caught up, and 2) the First Resurrection according to Rev 20.. But it sounds like you are saying not all believers are dying as martyrs, but also from old age, natural causes, etc... ? these people have to lay in wait for 1000 years, even though they believed? still doesnt fit this timeframe, d4L. unless Christ the First fruits is the Rapture... Christ the First fruits, Then those AT His Coming, then the end (after 1000yr reign) You raised more questions, How do you know these 'other dead' are believers? ' 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"not to be a stickler, but it only describes them as dead, not tribulation dead.. are they dying during the Reign? then that means 2 kingdoms, one of flesh and the other having put on immortality. Daniel's statue says that the Stone crushes all the other kingdoms, so I would say, no, there is only ONE Kingdom ruling on earth during the millenial that flesh and blood cannot enter. Thank God! later in rev 20 we get more a definition of the rest of the dead:
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.so, there are non-believers in this group of dead. Yet, too this raises another question: these are dead people being judged on their works, so is this a special group that are sorted and judged not according to the cross? and what works? if they died during the tribulation, then they would be martrys, no? especially if they did not take the mark or had their head cut off, were witnesses. But those come alive before the 1000 years, we just established that. Still,I have not had my question answered in regards to those who are ALIVE at His Coming, which, if you are a pre-tribber, you are saying there are 2 glorification processes? For me, I do not see this in the scriptures, leading to my final questions back to you, d4L: 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. If you are saying these are tribulation dead, then the tribulation is 1000 years? But moreso, what about those who are ALIVE when Jesus Comes? That is part of my question yet to be answered. Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom, are we to assume a second rapture for these living people post wrath? and if so, where is that in the scriptures? the ones that I see that would apply to this AT His Coming, people have assigned them to the rapture/pre-trib/wrath. I really dont want to detract from this thread's topic, for I dont have 10 reasons to believe in a pre-trib rapture like I used to have. And, I have no desire to change someone's mind. These things of pre-post trib are non-essential to salvation, right? but I do indeed have questions in the menatime. I dont want them answered with videos of pastors, I want them answered by my fellow brethren, who reply based on each brother/sister has searched the scriptures while in the Walk with the Lord, not having their opinions been formed by the viewpoints of man. d4L you are very good at showing your WHY you have the understanding of the scriptures and HOW you get there. Thanks for that. And I found where some of us talk about this personal seeking of the scriptures in the Resurrection section. it is found here: board.unsealed.org/thread/1855/challenge-end-timeI'll take my questions to that thread from this point on... |
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Post by venge on Aug 9, 2020 11:37:52 GMT -6
For me, a recent series of questions have been raised...no pun intended... The rapture includes the Dead in Christ rising first, correct? Then what happens to those who die during the 7 year trib? Is there a second resurrection of the dead? and, those who are alive when Jesus sets His foot on earth pre-millenial, is there a second change in a twinkling? There is a First Resurrection and a Second Death in Revelation, but I do not see the term Second Resurrection. Also, if there is a 2nd resurrection, then it does not happen until after the 1000 year reign, according to Rev 20 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.Maybe after the 7 year thing there is this 1000 year wait for the martyrs..but that isn't what it says in Rev 20. Hello, barbiosheepgirl , I think you raise a very interesting point. The text answers a lot - and tells us several things explicitly- but leaves a few questions unanswered. ;-) The plain reading of the text tell us that specifically that 1. there is a specific group of people in the tribulation linked by three things - a.) they had not received the mark of the beast, and b.) they they had not worshipped the beast or his image, and c.) for this- they were martyred. "because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God." Martyrs for Christ 2. - this group specifically - those martyred for Christ and did not take the mark came to life at the end of the Great tribulation, but before the Millennium - The text says unmistakably clear - that they came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. The entire Millennium 3. It specifically mentions the rest of the dead - which dead?? The rest of the dead during the tribulation - [those not martyred] 4. It specifically tells us that that these "Other Tribulation dead" came to life after the 1000 year millennium was completed. So there is a 2nd resurrection of believers. 5. We know already that all the dead in Christ will be changed /resurrected instantly at the rapture, and in a blink of an eye, the dead rise first and we [all living believers] are harpatzoed - caught up with them in the air, with Christ- When Christ comes for his Bride and we meet him in the sky. These other dead, can only be those who die by other means during the tribulation - old age, natural causes, car accidents, natural disasters, some crazy supernatural stuff, including monstrous hail, and asteroids crashing into the earth, and massive earthquakes of Biblical proportions. A lot of stuff people can die from.  They will join us in the new heaven and new earth, after the 1000 year reign. Just a little late to the party. Disciple4life 1. I am not sure the ones who refuse to take the mark are killed. They could be...but do they need to be? The text states: I saw the souls of them that were....then it mentions those beheaded by testimony of Christ and word of God. Next was the souls of them that did not take the mark. That doesn't imply death, it simply says John saw those who refused the mark and they received immortality. It doesn't say they were beheaded. The guess on a beheading doesn't matter...the point is we are not to take the mark and are rewarded for it. But I wouldn't say with 100% certainty they are all beheaded. Just a caution, it doesn't have bearing on what we both agree on which is their reward. 2. True, those that sacrifice their lives to God are rewarded. 3. It does not say the dead are those who died during the tribulation. It separates these dead from those who sacrificed their lives for God's word or Christ testimony. These dead are those that did not have God's word, did not have Christ testimony, took the mark etc...These dead do not reign with Christ and stay dead till the Great White Throne judgment. Therefore, that cannot be true Christians. Any true Christian is either raised with the dead or raptured when Christ comes - even if its in what some think is the great tribulation. Christ the first fruits, then we at his coming. That encompasses ever believer - Just one resurrection at the day he comes. Paul says we will "rest in him" when he is revealed in flameing fire with his angels taking vengeance on the wicked. If he is revealed from heaven taking vengeance on the wicked...he is seen and it his coming that we rest in. 4. It does not mention "other tribulation dead". It says the dead that do not reign with Christ which is everyone who did not die as martyr, did not have Christ or God's word, did take the mark or the beast...They will not come back to life. What about the living who survive the wrath of God? Surely, there will be some who survive it. So this "other dead" only refers to those who have been dead without the prerequisites (God's word, Christ testimony etc..) and those who die up to the time he resurrects the dead in him. 5. According to Rev 19, the marriage doesn't come (Rev 19:7) to whom the bride makes herself ready and she's adorned in white linen till after Babylon is destroyed (Rev 19:2) and Christ begins to reign (Rev 19:6). What I find interesting is, though I don't know for sure, if we meet Christ in the air..we see the following: We are always with the Christ where ever he is, we are correct? And we ride with him clothed in fine linen having just been changed in the air. Which this event is called to be: Or better, the wedding supper that followed the wedding in verse 7. EDIT: BTW, Ive said this before but Song of Solomon is modeled after Christ and in SoS 3:11, it backs up Rev 19 where Christ is married the day he reigns. |
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Post by Gary on Aug 9, 2020 12:21:57 GMT -6
I was extremely surprised to discover recently that two very prominent pastors who I had always assumed were not pre-trib actually are, or, at least they are now even if they didn't used to be. The first is Max Lucado who was influential to me in my early walk. Max is probably the top Stone-Campbell preacher in the world. What's funny about this is that the Stone-Campbell movement (Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Independent Christian Church) is largely amillennial or postmillennial, but he apparently has moved away from amillennialism and the non-literalism of preterism. The second is John MacArthur, the reformed pastor in California who is currently resisting the state government there in regard to their lockdown guidelines. This one surprises me just as much because he is probably the most influential reformed preacher in the western hemisphere, but he was actually persuaded by the dispensationalist Dr. John Walvoord from DTS. www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/1324/will-the-church-go-through-the-tribulation-part-1Gary, I'm reformed and I follow MacArthur as a teacher. He has consistently been pre-trib throughout his 51 years. He has written about it extensively and has multiple series about it on YouTube and the Grace To You app. His teaching preceded my coming here. I first went to Rapture Ready but they treated me like garbage for my beliefs. So I kept looking. Here is one sermon. It's specific to Rapture. The best is "The Next Event on God's Prophetic Timetable." also on YT. That's good to know. This one really [pleasantly] surprised me. I'm glad to hear he is. In the article I posted he mentioned being persuaded by Walvoord. Walvoord was a pretty humble scholar. Really like him. Honestly, to me there is very little difference between conservative covenantalism/reformed theology and TRADITIONAL dispensationalism, except for eschatology. I know that some things are defined slightly differently and predestination is a sticking point to some, but overall the practical matters are the same (imho). Now hyperdispensationalism is another story. |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 9, 2020 14:22:13 GMT -6
venge said: (this is for barbiosheepgirl , too) The next verse says, "They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." To me it seems to assume that "they" are the two groups John saw and mentioned in the previous verse - those who had been beheaded for their testimony and those who did not take the mark. "They came to life", not just the first group but all.
Vs5 “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.”
Which is the first resurrection? Those who died and will reign or the rest of the dead? V6 clarifies “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection … they will reign with Him for a thousand years” So, it's the martyrs and those who didn't take the mark that are in the first resurrection. 1000 years later there will be a second resurrection. I do not believe this group includes the Church because, even though there have been martyrs since the beginning, the choice of taking the mark or not as not been there since the beginning. The rapture is separate from this 1st resurrection. There has to be a period of time when the Church is raptured but people are still putting their faith in Christ to create this group to be resurrected. The rest of the dead (vs 5) would be all those who died of other reasons. Which would also address D4L's comment about those who died of natural causes or of old age - there will be people who were living in the Millennial Kingdom but died before the end. I think it would also include all those who died before and during the church age. They are also the group in vs 12. (I have heard some teachers teach that all the other dead are unbelievers or OT saints. That all believers will end up martyred by the end of Daniel's 70th week. This would answer your question as to why there would be some believers who died and not get to reign with Christ. That simply wouldn't be the case if all get martyred.) So, the rapture is one event, not called a resurrection although technically it is one. It has to come before the Millennial reign because the bride is announced in Rev 19. And there has to be time to create the group raised at the first resurrection. Then there is the 1st resurrection – martyrs and non-marked. They go directly to the Millennial kingdom – I would guess with new immortal bodies.
The rest of the dead come to life after the 1000 years. They are judged by what they had done. Did they choose the work done by Christ or their own works? If they put their faith in Christ then their name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life (like Noah, Abraham, David, etc). I assume they get immortal bodies and spend eternity on the New Earth. If they did not believe, then they are thrown into the lake of fire (a second death).
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Post by Natalie on Aug 9, 2020 14:37:14 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , I think that the living who are alive when Christ returns is addressed in Matthew 25:31-46.
They are not given glorified bodies though because at the end of His earthly reign many will rebel and join Satan for one last battle.
So, if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, do you think maybe Paul was referring to being born again? Aren't we in God's Kingdom now even though we are still flesh and blood? That's something I may dig into a bit more later. It's a good question you raised.
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Post by venge on Aug 9, 2020 18:35:03 GMT -6
venge said: (this is for barbiosheepgirl , too) The next verse says, "They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." To me it seems to assume that "they" are the two groups John saw and mentioned in the previous verse - those who had been beheaded for their testimony and those who did not take the mark. "They came to life", not just the first group but all.
Vs5 “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.”
Which is the first resurrection? Those who died and will reign or the rest of the dead? V6 clarifies “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection … they will reign with Him for a thousand years” So, it's the martyrs and those who didn't take the mark that are in the first resurrection. 1000 years later there will be a second resurrection. I do not believe this group includes the Church because, even though there have been martyrs since the beginning, the choice of taking the mark or not as not been there since the beginning. The rapture is separate from this 1st resurrection. There has to be a period of time when the Church is raptured but people are still putting their faith in Christ to create this group to be resurrected. The rest of the dead (vs 5) would be all those who died of other reasons. Which would also address D4L's comment about those who died of natural causes or of old age - there will be people who were living in the Millennial Kingdom but died before the end. I think it would also include all those who died before and during the church age. They are also the group in vs 12. (I have heard some teachers teach that all the other dead are unbelievers or OT saints. That all believers will end up martyred by the end of Daniel's 70th week. This would answer your question as to why there would be some believers who died and not get to reign with Christ. That simply wouldn't be the case if all get martyred.) So, the rapture is one event, not called a resurrection although technically it is one. It has to come before the Millennial reign because the bride is announced in Rev 19. And there has to be time to create the group raised at the first resurrection. Then there is the 1st resurrection – martyrs and non-marked. They go directly to the Millennial kingdom – I would guess with new immortal bodies.
The rest of the dead come to life after the 1000 years. They are judged by what they had done. Did they choose the work done by Christ or their own works? If they put their faith in Christ then their name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life (like Noah, Abraham, David, etc). I assume they get immortal bodies and spend eternity on the New Earth. If they did not believe, then they are thrown into the lake of fire (a second death). I just wrote a giant response and it got erased. Im not gonna reply. Just know I did lol. |
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Post by disciple4life on Aug 9, 2020 18:54:20 GMT -6
boymaker, barbiosheepgirl, venge, Gary, Natalie, Hello All, Specifically, barbiosheepgirl and Natalie -- Natalie said brilliantly, what i was trying to say. and I think Barbio that you and I are saying all the same things.  In an attempt to clarify - I put my thoughts- agreement in blue. The rest is Natalie articulating better what i meant. ;-) Natalie says " The next verse says, "They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." To me it seems to assume that "they" are the two groups John saw and mentioned in the previous verse - those who had been beheaded for their testimony and those who did not take the mark. "They came to life", not just the first group but all. Y es - these being all part of group of people who were martyred for Christ, and their testimony - [Did not worship the beast or the image and it cost them their life]
Vs5 “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.”
Which is the first resurrection? Those who died and will reign or the rest of the dead? V6 clarifies “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection … they will reign with Him for a thousand years” So, it's the martyrs and those who didn't take the mark that are in the first resurrection. Yes. I think we are all in total agreement here that these are clearly Christians - They reign with Christ 1000 years. 1000 years later there will be a second resurrection. I do not believe this group includes the Church because, even though there have been martyrs since the beginning, the choice of taking the mark or not as not been there since the beginning. The rapture is separate from this 1st resurrection. Yes, and as you said - we all recognize that the Harpazo is technically a resurrection. Paul explicitly says that the Dead in Christ will rise first, in the twinkling of an eye, and in a nano-second after- - all those Christians who are then alive and remain - will be caught up quickly by force together to meet Christ in the clouds. There has to be a period of time when the Church is raptured but people are still putting their faith in Christ to create this group to be resurrected. The rest of the dead (vs 5) would be all those who died of other reasons. Which would also address D4L's comment about those who died of natural causes or of old age - there will be people who were living in the Millennial Kingdom but died before the end. Yes, and to clarify to Barbio, I agree that this includes those who live and die during the Millennium - but i think for the sake of clarity of everyone - "the rest of the dead" is referring to Christians - Those who came to faith during the tribulation, - AND those who came to Christ in the 1000 year millennium who died of natural causes or disaster or falling hail -- It does NOT include martyrs, [they were already specifically listed in the first group] I think it would also include all those who died before and during the church age. Are you including them at the harpazo? or at the end of the Tribulation?? This is the only part i disagree on - All the Christian dead from Creation til Harpazo are all raised instantly - ***[with the exception of Enoch and Elijah who were already resurrected /translated but did not die. ] I take that passage "the dead in Christ" to just mean that - all Christians who have died throughout history up to the Harpazo. They are also the group in vs 12. (I have heard some teachers teach that all the other dead are unbelievers or OT saints. That all believers will end up martyred by the end of Daniel's 70th week. This would answer your question as to why there would be some believers who died and not get to reign with Christ. That simply wouldn't be the case if all get martyred.) So, the rapture is one event, not called a resurrection although technically it is one. It has to come before the Millennial reign because the bride is announced in Rev 19. And there has to be time to create the group raised at the first resurrection. Then there is the 1st resurrection – martyrs and non-marked. They go directly to the Millennial kingdom – I would guess with new immortal bodies.
The rest of the dead come to life after the 1000 years. Martyrs are a unique group with a special reward - the Martyrs' Crown. We should at least consider that the "rest of the dead" could be non-Martyred Christians - and all the other non-Christians who died during the Tribulation - by earthquake, falling asteroids, and poisoned waters- etc. They are judged by what they had done. Did they choose the work done by Christ or their own works? If they put their faith in Christ then their name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life (like Noah, Abraham, David, etc). I assume they get immortal bodies and spend eternity on the New Earth. If they did not believe, then they are thrown into the lake of fire (a second death). I do not mean this to be flippant or snide at all - it's one of many aspects that I am not clear on, (who these dead are and the 3rd resurrection) and have a lot of unanswered questions on- (not dogmatic) but it's a lot like the AC, in that for me, personally, since i'm so completely convinced in the concept of a pre-Tribulation rapture - it's interesting, but not a huge concern for me. I have considered long and hard - that what happens if by chance i am mistaken - then what are the implications/ ramifications ?? It simply means that there is some ginormous trigger event - Massive Collossal Earthquake and Tsunami that is felt around the world, or we see the construction of the 3rd Temple and the 2 Godzilla brothers breathe fire in Jerusalem and Social Media, Instagram and Tik Tok melt from videos, or we see WW III and we see a massive explosion - like 10 x bigger than Beirut, and Damascus becomes uninhabitable - and TA -DA -we have an exact day count to the mid-Point of the Tribulation. This position - is one which the Mid-trib and Pre-wrath view falls apart rather quickly. Something is the trigger event, and starts the Tribulation  - and this is where the 1260 Day count comes into play. *** This is why Barry Scarborough says- If the 7 year tribulation had started- we would know it, and the world would know it. If it were not the rapture - and say we see Iran start WWIII and Damascus is obliterated, and California falls off - then Christians would simply be able to simply tick off the day count, and tell non-Christians in advance not only what key events happen, but when. We would know exactly how much rice to buy, and how much gas to buy and ration, and how much toilet paper we need and how many cartons of canned milk and 3 1/2 years of camping fuel. I don't expect to change anyone's mind, but it's just for me, when i look at the whole counsel of scripture, and i consider the fact that the church and Israel are two totally identities, - and we are now in the Church age, and the time of Jacob's trouble was written to Jews, by a Jew, for Jews - not Dylan's Trouble or Ashley's Trouble - and we look at the picture of the Hebrew wedding, it's not a question. Blessings, disciple4life |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 9, 2020 19:21:22 GMT -6
Just to clarify, D4L when I said all that died during and before the church age I was meaning unbelievers and OT saints.  . Although you very well could be correct that the OT saints will be raptured. I am unsure where they fit. Believers go in the rapture (dead ones and alive ones). Martyrs and those who didn't take the mark are at the end of Daniel's 70th week. (Christians that happen to make it through alive will just go into the kingdom, that's my thought anyway). Everyone else throughout history and 1000 years is at the end of 1000 years. |
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Post by disciple4life on Aug 9, 2020 20:29:31 GMT -6
As promised, I said i would post the latest "Prophecy Update" by J D Farag. This one is unique, and thus why it's in this thread - Pastor JD Farag condenses an entire 8 week series on the Biblical proof of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture, and he condensed all the points of this series into one sermon. He has some very very good points, and some that he is totally off, but i think it helps clarify a lot of things for those who are wondering, or still studying this topic. calvarychapelkaneohe.com/prophecy-updates/ "Pre-Tribulation Rapture Proof" |
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Post by venge on Aug 10, 2020 7:43:45 GMT -6
boymaker , barbiosheepgirl , venge , Gary , Natalie , Hello All, Specifically, barbiosheepgirl and Natalie -- Natalie said brilliantly, what i was trying to say. and I think Barbio that you and I are saying all the same things. In an attempt to clarify - I put my thoughts- agreement in blue. The rest is Natalie articulating better what i meant. ;-) Natalie says " The next verse says, "They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." To me it seems to assume that "they" are the two groups John saw and mentioned in the previous verse - those who had been beheaded for their testimony and those who did not take the mark. "They came to life", not just the first group but all. Y es - these being all part of group of people who were martyred for Christ, and their testimony - [Did not worship the beast or the image and it cost them their life]
Vs5 “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.”
Which is the first resurrection? Those who died and will reign or the rest of the dead? V6 clarifies “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection … they will reign with Him for a thousand years” So, it's the martyrs and those who didn't take the mark that are in the first resurrection. Yes. I think we are all in total agreement here that these are clearly Christians - They reign with Christ 1000 years. 1000 years later there will be a second resurrection. I do not believe this group includes the Church because, even though there have been martyrs since the beginning, the choice of taking the mark or not as not been there since the beginning. The rapture is separate from this 1st resurrection. Yes, and as you said - we all recognize that the Harpazo is technically a resurrection. Paul explicitly says that the Dead in Christ will rise first, in the twinkling of an eye, and in a nano-second after- - all those Christians who are then alive and remain - will be caught up quickly by force together to meet Christ in the clouds. There has to be a period of time when the Church is raptured but people are still putting their faith in Christ to create this group to be resurrected. The rest of the dead (vs 5) would be all those who died of other reasons. Which would also address D4L's comment about those who died of natural causes or of old age - there will be people who were living in the Millennial Kingdom but died before the end. Yes, and to clarify to Barbio, I agree that this includes those who live and die during the Millennium - but i think for the sake of clarity of everyone - "the rest of the dead" is referring to Christians - Those who came to faith during the tribulation, - AND those who came to Christ in the 1000 year millennium who died of natural causes or disaster or falling hail -- It does NOT include martyrs, [they were already specifically listed in the first group] I think it would also include all those who died before and during the church age. Are you including them at the harpazo? or at the end of the Tribulation?? This is the only part i disagree on - All the Christian dead from Creation til Harpazo are all raised instantly - ***[with the exception of Enoch and Elijah who were already resurrected /translated but did not die. ] I take that passage "the dead in Christ" to just mean that - all Christians who have died throughout history up to the Harpazo. They are also the group in vs 12. (I have heard some teachers teach that all the other dead are unbelievers or OT saints. That all believers will end up martyred by the end of Daniel's 70th week. This would answer your question as to why there would be some believers who died and not get to reign with Christ. That simply wouldn't be the case if all get martyred.) So, the rapture is one event, not called a resurrection although technically it is one. It has to come before the Millennial reign because the bride is announced in Rev 19. And there has to be time to create the group raised at the first resurrection. Then there is the 1st resurrection – martyrs and non-marked. They go directly to the Millennial kingdom – I would guess with new immortal bodies.
The rest of the dead come to life after the 1000 years. Martyrs are a unique group with a special reward - the Martyrs' Crown. We should at least consider that the "rest of the dead" could be non-Martyred Christians - and all the other non-Christians who died during the Tribulation - by earthquake, falling asteroids, and poisoned waters- etc. They are judged by what they had done. Did they choose the work done by Christ or their own works? If they put their faith in Christ then their name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life (like Noah, Abraham, David, etc). I assume they get immortal bodies and spend eternity on the New Earth. If they did not believe, then they are thrown into the lake of fire (a second death). It simply means that there is some ginormous trigger event - Massive Collossal Earthquake and Tsunami that is felt around the world, or we see the construction of the 3rd Temple and the 2 Godzilla brothers breathe fire in Jerusalem and Social Media, Instagram and Tik Tok melt from videos, or we see WW III and we see a massive explosion - like 10 x bigger than Beirut, and Damascus becomes uninhabitable - and TA -DA -we have an exact day count to the mid-Point of the Tribulation. This position - is one which the Mid-trib and Pre-wrath view falls apart rather quickly. Something is the trigger event, and starts the Tribulation - and this is where the 1260 Day count comes into play. *** This is why Barry Scarborough says- If the 7 year tribulation had started- we would know it, and the world would know it. If it were not the rapture - and say we see Iran start WWIII and Damascus is obliterated, and California falls off - then Christians would simply be able to simply tick off the day count, and tell non-Christians in advance not only what key events happen, but when. We would know exactly how much rice to buy, and how much gas to buy and ration, and how much toilet paper we need and how many cartons of canned milk and 3 1/2 years of camping fuel. , I just wanted to reply back top a specific thing you wrote, so I deleted the rest. Christ owns words said: The children of light will recognize the things happening on the earth as they see as nearing of its end and the 2nd coming of Christ. I do not date set nor do I believe one could count accurately when something happens to its end. I think one issue is, some look for a "Massive Collossal Earthquake and Tsunami that is felt around the world, or we see the construction of the 3rd Temple and the 2 Godzilla brothers breathe fire in Jerusalem" as you stated and I am saying it may not happen like that. So if that were not to happen in the way some expect, but it happens another way...you might not know what to look for. Yet, you still see things happening all around you. One commentator, referring to seeing the signs when they happen and Christ being at the door, said: Lastly, I know many here love watching random videos and many hold certain people in high esteem. But honestly, myself and others here that I have spoken to love it more when we hear from each of the members thoughts on scripture and not the thoughts of random videos with those that I cannot converse with, ask questions to, debate and such. I know videos have a place, but they seem to be constant every few replies and dominate over ones own thoughts. I am not saying you do this all the time at all. But all members, regardless of their positional theory on prophecy, your own words are soo much better then a 20m-2hr clip from a Pastor that I don't know. =P Natalie , You said: I would think anyone in God's word or following the testimony of Christ would be included. But I disagree with your rapture statement. OT believers in faith cannot be raptured. The rapture is only for those "who are alive and remain". Since they have all died, they would be included with the resurrection of the dead prior to the rapture. The dead would not be raptured. Harpazo is absent from this text. Harpazo is included in verse 17 (shall be caught up). 726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly). Ever notice that? Not covertly or secretly.... You said: I realize you said that is your opinion, and I appreciate that. So I am not posting a reply to correct your opinion. I want to add to it. If Christians dont make the rapture and are somehow after it, but they are still Christians before the millennial reign of Christ, how do they exist on earth when the word of God says in 1 Cor 15 These Christians belong to Christ. Since Christ hasn't reigned yet....wouldn't they be with him where he is and if so, how can they be on earth with the wicked and not with him in the rapture? Verse 24 happens at the end of the millennial reign, so wouldn't believers after a rapture but before the millennial reign be impossible based upon his words? How do others understand Christians will go into a kingdom and not taken? Is there any scripture for this? |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 10, 2020 7:49:24 GMT -6
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It seems that you and I read this verse differently. I see the rapture including the dead and the living. Caught up together.
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Post by venge on Aug 10, 2020 8:09:45 GMT -6
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. It seems that you and I read this verse differently. I see the rapture including the dead and the living. Caught up together. , Lets break it down again. 1. and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 2. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up -How much time elapses after the dead rise? 2 separate events. Not at the same time. The dead rise first....then we are raptured sometime after. 3. The dead rising first meet the Lord in the clouds. 4. While the dead are in the clouds with the Lord, as they rose first, the alive and those that remain are then removed to the clouds to meet the dead who rose first and the Lord in the air. That is the "with them" as they were raised first. Edit: When the dead are raised, they don't go to the clouds and then leave. They wait until we all are gathered together. His whole church. 2nd EDIT:1899 épeita (an adverb composed of 1909 /epí, "on, fitting" and 1534 /eíta, a primitive particle meaning "then, to continue on") – properly, only then (emphasizing what precedes is a necessary precursor). The "then" in we who are alive and remain demonstrates they rise first as a precursor. Both cannot rise at the same time to the clouds. Third EDIT LOL:
I am unsure if this is possible - if the dead rise first, that we are changed directly after. What I mean is, If so..the dead rising wouldn't be their ascending...but their getting new bodies. If that were the case, one could argue that after their transformation, we are then transformed and then together we go to the clouds. So I suppose the understanding is , is rising an understanding of raising from the dead to life or is it rising into the sky? I haven't look at the Greek yet on this particular word. Now I am curious =P Posting 1 Cor 15:52 for subject matter clarification on this. Here is the word for "rise" in the text. anistémi Usage: I raise up, set up; I rise from among (the) dead; I arise, appear. Possibly the resurrection is the focus on the "rise" and not the destination as well. If the dead resurrect first..I now wonder how much time between their resurrection and our transformation happens if this is a possible scenario. Do they sit around in their new resurrected bodies waiting a couple minutes for us to be changed? Both don't change at the same time, and I have a feeling I know why which I wont talk about yet because it isn't Pre TB =P. But regardless, there is a delay whether brief in seconds or longer in days, it isn't simultaneous. Hmm...such questions I have...more studying I will do (thankx Yoda) |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 9, 2021 8:26:41 GMT -6
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. It seems that you and I read this verse differently. I see the rapture including the dead and the living. Caught up together. **Disclamer, I don't pretend to speak for Natalie. She usually articulates the things I mean, better than I can. - Maybe that's an otter thing. I also know that often times it helps to hear someone else say a point in different words. Natalie , please feel free to correct or clarify any point that you don't think I am articulating correctly. It's not meant in any sense to correct Natalie, but just with the thought that I perfectly agree with Natalie's position, and thought I would take a shot at saying it differently. "I see the rapture including the dead and the living. Caught up together." There are two primary passages that are accepted, and used by virtually every teacher and denomination that believes in a rapture, and these are the 2 quintessential verses that are always used to show and explain the rapture in scripture. They are 1 Thes 4:15-17 and I Corinthians 15:50-52. A couple of very important points - that I think are indisputable - as close to agreement as about anything in scripture. The point here is to underscore the items on which there is almost universal agreement - in the 2 most well-known passages on the rapture, used by Christians around the world. - In these two passages, - both by Paul - he explains the mystery of the rapture and links the rapture [harpazo] with the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which Paul explicitly says is at The Last Trumpet.
- While Paul states that the dead in Christ go first, it's one event which is in a nanosecond. The Greek word is atomos, where we get the word atom.
- Technically - it is the dead in Christ - all those from Creation and in the current church age - who are resurrected, and "We who are alive" are raptured [harpazo] caught up quickly by force with them together in the clouds - in a nanosecond, in one event.
- The Plain sense reading of the text does not imply different groups of dead Christians such as before Christ or after Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 LSV Behold, I tell you a secret: we indeed will not all sleep, but we will all be changed; 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed;
I Thessalonians 4:15-17 LSV for we say this to you in the word of the LORD, that we who are living—who remain over to the coming of the LORD—may not precede those asleep, 16because the LORD Himself, with a shout, with the voice of a chief-messenger, and with the trumpet of God, will come down from Heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first; 17then we who are living, who are remaining over, will be snatched up together with them in [the] clouds to meet the LORD in [the] air, and so we will always be with the LORD; ----------------------------------------------- My 2 cents - there is not consensus, but I think it's worth noting these points and think they are important for the discussion.
- In the I Corinthians passage - the context of the entire chapter is the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of those in Christ - and the hope we have. ***Paul explicitly states that Christ was the First-Fruits of the resurrection - so he lists a Feast which they all totally understood - in the context of the resurrection.
- In the passage of 1 Thessalonians 4, in the same passage, same context, 2 verses later, Paul says that these Christians already understand the "Times and seasons". This is from Genesis 1:14 - where the sun and stars are made for "Signs and seasons" - and the word seasons is NOT the english concept of spring, summer, fall and winter - it's "Moedim" the feasts, and literally is translated as "appointed times".
- Christ was not the first to be resurrected -- Elijah resurrected the Widow of Zaraphath's son- a striking parallel to Christ raising the son of the widow of Nain.
- Jews were very much aware of the concept of the Great resurrection of the dead and we see this multiple times in the Old Testament. Job, David, Ezekiel, etc. and we see this also in the story of Lazarus, and Martha who was aware of the great resurrection. 1 Kings 17:21-22 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, "O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again". 22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. He then takes the child downstairs again and presents him, living, to his mother. This causes her to declare "Now by this I know that thou art a man of God" (v24), Elijah therefore "regains his honor and his status."[1] Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus, also known as Rabbi Eliezer Hagadol, relates that the son raised by Elijah was none other than the prophet Jonah, most notably associated with the incident involving a giant fish. Commentators have noted verbal parallels with the raising of the son of the widow of Nain in the Gospel of Luke chapter 7." We also see the passage where multiple people were resurrected along with Jesus and were seen by many witnesses. **This point cannot be overstated, because people see the phrase First Resurrection in Revelation, but it's clearly not the first, or the second or the third. It's the first of it's kind. Christ was the first-fruits and the rapture is the main "mass resurrection" and then there is the resurrection of Revelation. The day of the Lord is the 2nd coming - which appears over 21 times in 19 passages in the OT and is never once described as glorious, or "our blessed hope". it's anguish, terror, darkness, gloom, destruction, punishment, judgment, being chased by a lion, confronted by a bear, and then bitten by a snake when you get home, and the day women are ravished. [Not in any sense something that Paul would say to encourage one another by.] It's also telling that Jews all over the planet - who can't agree that the sky is blue- but they agree that the Great Resurrection takes place on Yom Teruah / Last Trumpet. Hmmmm. The words are literally mutually exclusive - from the words that Paul and others describe the rapture. |
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- and this is where the 1260 Day count comes into play. ***This is why Barry Scarborough says- If the 7 year tribulation had started- we would know it, and the world would know it. 
. Although you very well could be correct that the OT saints will be raptured. I am unsure where they fit.