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Post by mike on Oct 18, 2021 12:13:29 GMT -6
disciple4life your explanation does make sense in the way you divide the word. I do not separate the resurrection and the 2nd Advent however.
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Post by sog on Oct 18, 2021 15:32:36 GMT -6
If someone sees the "Day of the Lord" being the rapture [one and the same] even though the terms are mutually exclusive and Day of the Lord is never once described in the Tanakh/ Old Testament as positive- then this would be 1 slam-dunk proof verse for mid-trib or pre-wrath. Hope that makes sense. One thing I/we tend to forget is that God is outside of time. The events can take place at the same time or very closely. The 6th seal of Revelation 6. Revelation 7 - The Interlude, sealing of the 144,000, the multitude coming out of the tribulation. Then the 7th seal of Revelation 8 begins. The wrath of God begins. Imo, All encompass the DotL. Positive for us then negative for those left. Think about the clock just about to strike midnight as the second hand is moving from 11:59 to 00:00. In those milliseconds, God, like lighting. It may take longer to descriptively write those verses than the actual event takes.
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Post by venge on Oct 18, 2021 17:22:41 GMT -6
mike , sog , tennessean I'm curious how either of you understand this saying. Christ comes to earth to reign His followers are to inherit the Kingdom Those that inherit the Kingdom when he reigns will then receive eternal life. Which I find interesting because Timothy said in regards to eternal life, And he links that epiphany with the Kingdom, which the previous verses spoken of by Christ said eternal life was when he comes to reign and we enter the Kingdom Not only that but Christ said, So I guess my question is: Where, in Revelation, do you place this event? When Christ sits on his throne and we inherit the Kingdom that we can receive everlasting life? Otherise, is anyone saying that we receive everlasting life BEFORE the Kingdom which would be contrary to multiple scriptures; would it not? BTW, for those that didnt know, that word "epiphany" is used 6 times. Twice here to refer to be judged and rewarded in his Kingdom, a third is Titus 2:13...the blessed hope and glorious appearing. Guess our blessed hope is really in his Kingdom according to Timothy.
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 19, 2021 10:50:09 GMT -6
so is the issue about when in the timeline the rapture occurs? We know that "After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 and, "in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1 Cor.15:52 This is before His feet touch the Mount of Olives. "On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south." Zechariah 14:4 So, we are changed, meet Him in the air. Then He has a battle to fight. Why the battle? To take back the throne(which He has already won). He then sits upon this throne and tells the "blessed of the Father" to sit at His right hand. Also when He stands on Mount Zion(same as the Mount of Olives? i don't know) with the 144,000, they sing a new song which no one else can learn, imo meaning they had to learn it. How long would that take. So to me, this all takes a little time. Could be instantaneous, but Jesus also said He was coming soon and it's been 2000 years, right? lol Soon to Him is not soon to us. Also, once we are changed, we are "in" the spirit world. We are eternal. The thing is, the physical world and the spirit world are coming to a critical point. We are going to experience things beyond our understanding and will only have the Holy Spirit to guide us through it.
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Post by mike on Oct 19, 2021 11:10:55 GMT -6
stormyknight Not exactly - He did not say He was coming soon. He said He was coming quickly Rev 3:11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Rev 22:7 And behold, I am coming quickly.Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.(5035 - tachu - an adjective, used adverbially, and derived from 5036 /taxýs, "promptly") – properly, swift (quick), without unnecessary delay
Not soon, but rapidly-without delay when the time is at hand. I think sog alludes to it as do you in other posts. We look at prophecy and see time is involved here on earth. We have good cause for this as we see 1260 days, a half hour of silence, 5 months of torment (off the top of my head) - God is not bound by these time elements, we are.
Circle back and the question of the thread is the timing of the event of the rapture which should never exclude the resurrection of the dead. I think we who are currently alive get so caught up in not dying that we forget those who will rise before we do. They are already freed from this world and its constraints like time.
EDIT-When things look their worst, He will appear fulfilling these these in rapid succession. Much like He did in His first advent, His return will have similar pattern of fulfillment(s).
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 21, 2021 19:08:14 GMT -6
so is the issue about when in the timeline the rapture occurs? We know that "After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17and, "in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1 Cor.15:52This is before His feet touch the Mount of Olives. "On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south." Zechariah 14:4So, we are changed, meet Him in the air. Then He has a battle to fight. Why the battle? To take back the throne(which He has already won). He then sits upon this throne and tells the "blessed of the Father" to sit at His right hand. Also when He stands on Mount Zion(same as the Mount of Olives? i don't know) with the 144,000, they sing a new song which no one else can learn, imo meaning they had to learn it. How long would that take. So to me, this all takes a little time. Could be instantaneous, but Jesus also said He was coming soon and it's been 2000 years, right? lol Soon to Him is not soon to us. Also, once we are changed, we are "in" the spirit world. We are eternal. The thing is, the physical world and the spirit world are coming to a critical point. We are going to experience things beyond our understanding and will only have the Holy Spirit to guide us through it. Hello friends, mike, sog, venge, stormyknight, wishing4, boraddict, bruce, tennessean, stormyknight, -- Yes my brother, you hit the nail on the head- the big issue is about the timing of the rapture in relation to all the event of the end times - Crucial to the discussion imho, is whether or not people think the rapture [Harpazo- in the 2 most universally used and well-known rapture passages in the Bible] is the same event as the 2nd coming/ Day of the Lord, or are these separate events. You knocked it out of the park with this one @stormy . I know that there are a myriad of positions as to whether the rapture happens on a Feast day, or any-minute-any-day surprise, and then there's the whole issue of pre-Trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib. While i know a few people here and a few from other places personally who hold pre-wrath view, and i'm not positive, but it seems to be the case that most who hold the mid-trib view, also believe that the rapture/harpazo is the same event as the event you cite from Zechariah 14. But I' don't understand how someone can see this passage from Zechariah 14, which is explicitly stated as the Day of the Lord, and he says that this is when the Lord comes back and touches his feet at the Mt of Olives, and be like "Yeah, that's the rapture". Christ said "in the same manner he left, he would return" did he not?? This is a huge, and very important part of the puzzle that i think is overlooked. - Christ physically and literally ascended up from the Mt of Olives and this is huge because Matt 24 and 25, are all dealing with the event of the 2nd advent - rapture, tribulation, AC, Abomination of desolation, "The great apostasy" the AC revealed and the events of the tribulation. Not an instant, nanosecond event.
- Christ will literally, and physically descend from heaven down to earth and will touch his feel on the Mt of Olives. Same manner, same place.
- When he ascended - it was not instantaneous - not a nanosecond, blink-of-an-eye - in fact, the disciples watched him as he went up into heaven.
- When he returns - 2nd coming, - it also is not instantaneous - not a blink-of-an-eye event. Zech 14 states explicitly that several major things happen including the mountain splitting in two, and a ginormous valley forming- watching the ground open up and move making a massive valley. Revelation says every eye will see him, and they will look on him whom they have pierced. Again - this is not an instant, nanosecond event.
- Paul was Jewish and a Pharisee, -well-versed in the Hebrew scriptures of the Old Testament, and he totally understood the concept of the Day of the Lord as described by 10 prophets.
- Paul was the very one who revealed the mystery of the rapture/ and which he explicitly links with the resurrection of the dead - which happens in a millisecond, -but they are resurrected first, and then we who are alive will be caught up quickly with them, in the twinkling of an eye" and he explicitly states happens at "The Last Trumpet" a well-known and instantly understood idiom. Yet no one can explain why Paul who was given the great honor of explaining the mystery of the rapture -never explains the earth-shaking events literally, that the earth would split in two and make a giant canyon that divides Jerusalem in half, and this is part of the rapture. Hmmmm.
- He also is the only writer in the entire Bible - the same guy who explains the rapture/resurrection to believers everywhere in the world - who uses the phrase "Day of Christ" in relation to the rapture - which is a positive event - for those believers everywhere - who are hearing his letters.
- What's even more interesting - is that none of the NT writers, Paul, Luke, John, Matthew, say that the rapture is the same as the 2nd coming, and they also use terms to describe the rapture which is opposite from - mutually exclusive from the 43 descriptions used by the Old Testament prophets for the "Day of the Lord". Hmmm.
- Paul says that the rapture is instantaneous - the word here is atomos- the smallest particle - atom, and it's in the blink of an eye. So this means that using basic hermeneutics, if the rapture and the 2nd coming/ Day of the Lord are the same - then John directly contradicts Zechariah, and Paul also directly contradicts Zechariah and John.
- If the 2nd coming and the rapture/Harpazo are the same, then we have another blatant contradiction - because Paul said Christians go up and meet Christ in the air, and Zechariah says Christ comes down, and Revelation says Christ comes with the saints.
- If the Rapture and 2nd coming are the same, and let's say they happen mid-trib, and God pours out his wrath, - then so is Christ on a white horse at the rapture?
- What's the point of going up and making a u-turn in heaven, and then coming right back down to Mt of Olives. ?
- Another huge question, that i've never had anyone explain is if the rapture and 2nd coming were the same, and it happens mid-trib, then how would there be tribulation saints, and what is the point of the 144,000 witnesses, - if the rapture happens at the same time that judgment is poured out, and what event ends the tribulation?
- From a hermeneutics standpoint - It doesn't stand, to simply say "Well, the rapture is glorious for us- for Christians, but terrible for the lost - a day of darkness and judgment", and yet ignore the facts that one thing can't be a millisecond, - impossible to see - and a process that everyone on the whole world will see- a series of events. The only way that this fits - is that the rapture and 2nd coming are 2 totally separate events, with separate purposes/ objectives, for totally separate groups of people.
- Another dilemma is that at least so far - I've not seen anyone even give a plausible explanation as to why there's one extra feast - and how it is fulfilled. **[We know from Zechariah 14 how Sukkot will be fulfilled - It's the 1000 year Sabbath, and all the nations of the world will celebrate Feast of Booths in Jerusalem every year. So that leaves Feast of trumpets, and Day of atonement. If rapture and 2nd coming are the same event, then that leaves one extra that is not fulfilled.
Maranatha,
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Post by mike on Oct 22, 2021 7:55:19 GMT -6
disciple4life , Hey brother - I can see that you dont understand...because of the viewpoint you hold. Do you assert that the Day of the Lord means the last day of the 7 year tribulation? I believe you do but do not want to assume. I think this is where this viewpoint has some issues that lead to incorrect assumptions due to contradictions found in the view Something that I struggled with for a long time is the traditional views that are posted, preached, in books (mostly fictional) and other theories that the tribulation is 7 years of trials split into two halves with Jesus returning on the final day of the 7 years. What if that is not accurate? Who is Jesus speaking to here and why? Something else in the struggle to view our end times correctly (believing we are in the end times) is this and statements like it. Many suppose that these things He was warning about take place after the resurrection, and that He would be speaking only to those who were "left behind". I was taught that this applied to the tribulation saints, but I have found much contradiction with this supposition. I have been considering this notion, or at least something similar to it. As you & I have discussed, the mid-point is the sign for believers to recognize what is taking place. We must be astute in our discernment (again assuming this happens in this generation and we remain) recognizing the AoD. It is obvious that we can see it taking shape in our world today, yet likely it has not occurred. We remain diligent looking at the possibilities of it happening in a rebuilt temple, or perhaps in the hearts of men who sell their souls to mankind for hope and belief in salvation through their efforts...I digress a bit... The tribulation saints are those like me & you who continue to believe during the tribulation. What I would pose as something that not only doesnt make sense, but I think contradicts scripture is the notion of a tribulation saint. People are refusing God and turning to fables and lies all day every day. It is very clear (at least to me) that the apostacy has begun. I saw on YT yesterday where a "pastor" was supporting the satanists because they dont attack him saying he needs to repent of his error. His answer was "im not repenting of anything, they treat me well" - heresy! So If before Christ returns (and however you view the resurrection for this question to ask yourself is irrelevant to me) we have a great apostacy, how will people who are turning away from Him en masse suddenly become true believers? This notion contradicts what we read: why is this happening? where are the trib saints? I dont see repentance in the time of the 7 years, but more hardening of hearts just like we are told 2 Thes 2:3 Something to ponder if you havent already For the first bullet - why cant Christ descend from heaven and all eyes see Him and at any point He, the giver of life raise the dead and quicken the living to meet Him in the air? Christ went up into a cloud - not in a quick 'poof' but they were able to watch Him. In the same manner He will return, and at any point can rapture and come to the ground to defeat His enemies... Second bullet - Agree here that the resurrection and subsequent rapture are at the same time as the second coming, the Day of the Lord. Mid-trib? Maybe a bit further down the last 1260 but before the end of the 1260. I am still pondering this as it relates to 1290 & 1335. He pours out His wrath on the unbelieving after or at the same moment as the dead are raised. This is entirely plausible - third bullet - no U-turn need as explained in bullet 2
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Post by mike on Oct 22, 2021 8:04:24 GMT -6
This post from Venge from last week was addressed to me No one here should be desiring to argue, especially among brothers. Whether we agree, disagree or simply talk things through we are brothers in Christ arent we? John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.
Understanding that the bulk of the content on this site is end times, I encourage you to find other things to discuss to resolve this problem. Not speaking to one another is not acceptable based on scripture. Romans 12:9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
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Post by sog on Oct 22, 2021 14:26:41 GMT -6
mike , sog , tennessean I'm curious how either of you understand this saying. Christ comes to earth to reign His followers are to inherit the Kingdom Those that inherit the Kingdom when he reigns will then receive eternal life. Which I find interesting because Timothy said in regards to eternal life, And he links that epiphany with the Kingdom, which the previous verses spoken of by Christ said eternal life was when he comes to reign and we enter the Kingdom Not only that but Christ said, So I guess my question is: Where, in Revelation, do you place this event? When Christ sits on his throne and we inherit the Kingdom that we can receive everlasting life? Otherise, is anyone saying that we receive everlasting life BEFORE the Kingdom which would be contrary to multiple scriptures; would it not? BTW, for those that didnt know, that word "epiphany" is used 6 times. Twice here to refer to be judged and rewarded in his Kingdom, a third is Titus 2:13...the blessed hope and glorious appearing. Guess our blessed hope is really in his Kingdom according to Timothy. venge, I think that judgement happens after the trumpets and bowls. After Jesus comes back at Armageddon with his armies (elect that were taken up prior - but not Pre-trib) clothed in white linen and destroys his enemies. Do you think if the elect are taken up prior to this event, they are already judged and given a reward, or at the judgement in the verses below? Can you be taken up to heaven and be with the Lord and not yet be judged? Not trying to lead you, these are honest questions? Revelation 20:11-15 Judgment at the Throne of God 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Then comes New Heaven and Earth and New Jerusalem in Revelation 21.
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Post by sog on Oct 22, 2021 14:43:04 GMT -6
venge, Other questions - Are the elect (true believers in Christ) judged at all? Our sins have been wiped clean and given white clean robes. Jesus has redeemed us. What is to judge? Rewards are given, but is that the same as a throne judgement? Is that the same event? Is the judgement only for those that did not accept Christ and according to their works, works we know will not save you?
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 22, 2021 14:57:15 GMT -6
One thing to keep in mind through all of this is that “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isa. 55:9 There are things we have no idea about. When we are changed, "in the blink of an eye", what happens then? We meet Him in the air. We meet Him. Doesn't that imply He is enroute to a destination? The fact that it's in the air, to me, means He has not reached that destination yet, that being the Mount of Olives. Also, when we are changed, we are now in the spirit world. Eternal. How can that be unless we are already found blameless? Because Jesus took our blame for us and we are now without spot or blemish and are allowed to enter into the Kingdom of God. Then there is the wedding supper, etc, etc. How long does all this take? Doesn't time now not have any hold on those who are outside of time? Perhaps in that "blink of an eye" the world stands still as certain events take place for us. ie "Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." 2 Pet. 3:9I've taken a step back from being a pre-tribber, because I see both sides and can't square them up. So I'm going to leave that part up to God and just watch events unfold for now. I see people falling from the faith more and more. Israel is chomping at the bit to build the third temple. I know I can't lose my place in Jesus' hand. So disciple4life, I don't know if Zech. 14 is the same day/moment as the rapture, but then I don't know that it matters because we will be with Him when that day occurs. I just know in my heart we will meet Him in the air, or before He sets foot on the Mount of Olives.
and mike, you're right, for one who tries so hard to get to the meaning of words, I totally missed that about soon/quickly. I wonder if that also relates to coming like a flood? "The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed." Dan. 9:26 Have you ever been near a gully or dry wash when a rain from upstream shows up? It starts out slow and shallow and builds quickly until it is a raging torrent. I think that describes the events of today.
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Post by venge on Oct 22, 2021 15:51:38 GMT -6
sog, For me, I see God's first judgments happen in the Trumpets. Specifically against Babylon in his "Orge". I see his secondary judgments in the bowls which are his " out poured" "thumos". I think the elect are taken up prior to the bowls which includes Armageddon. They are judged and rewarded before the bowls because the bowls are within the Messianic Kingdom and Christ will remove all workers of iniquity from his Kingdom. I don't believe the Bible states anywhere we are taken to heaven. We are taken to paradise, which is defined as a garden or park. The future paradise is the New Jerusalem where the tree of life is, on the earth. Paul said, we must all stand before the judgment seat. and again in Acts 17:31 and again and again and Timothy tells us when: So we are to be judged after we die on a specific day, not immediately, which happens at his appearing and Kingdom. I think I answered that above. We will all be judged. Who said we have already been given white robes? Arnt we in a race? Don't we all run for a prize? Can one who races be given a reward before they are judged on how they ran the race? Are you referring to the 1st resurrection of the Just or the 2nd resurrection where anyone not written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire? Works cannot save, but faith without works is dead faith. We are to be a zealots for good works.
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Post by boraddict on Oct 22, 2021 19:50:04 GMT -6
Just a small note to insert into the conversation. Think of the population of the earth from beginning to end. Someone told me once that that number would be something like one hundred billion people that have lived upon this planet. I would say that the vast majority of these have not heard the gospel message. Yet, everyone knows how to be good and kind to one another. Thus, it is the relationships between people and how we treat each other that is important. Of those who are relative good to one another; they naturally follow the teachings of the Savior. Even though many are not believers in Christ or not heard the gospel message, they know how to be good. And, being good to one another is the foundation of the gospel message. That is, if we follow Christ then we are good and kind to each other. All of these people are sinners. And, most of these people are spiritually dead not knowing the Savior. Thus, most of the people that have lived upon the earth will be judged for the works that they did and their life is an open book called the book of the dead IMO (Rev. 20:12). Interestingly, of those who did not hear the gospel message they can at the second resurrection be listed in the book of life as shown in Rev. 20:15. It appears to be a last call, that the door is still open if they will accept Christ. Not for salvation from sin but to receive a reward for being good. This group however is judged for the things that they did while they were alive. So it appears that the invitation for salvation is not given to everyone. Because, those who have salvation are clean via the blood of Christ (Rev. 1:5). And the majority as I have shown above are judged by their works. And those having Salvation are saved via grace and their works have nothing to do with it. Thus, the 1st resurrection is for those having salvation from their sins and the 2nd resurrection is for those who are judged by their works. Something like that. And now to the rapture era. Some of these two groups are here upon the earth right now. The ones having salvation, and the others not having salvation but will be judged by their works. The above is my own personal thoughts on this subject. Continuing: thus there are two resurrections and the first is the resurrection of those people who die in Christ and having been cleansed by the blood of Christ (Rev. 1:5) are not judged by their works. The second resurrection are those who were not cleansed by the blood of Christ and will be judged according to their works (Rev. 20:12). It also seems to be the case that the 1st resurrection begins during the tribulation era and continues throughout the 1,000 year reign of Christ upon the earth. And, the 2nd resurrection begins after the 1,000 year reign of Christ is over. It is then that those who are not listed in the book of life are cast out (Rev. 20:15). So, it appears that the people having salvation from their sins that come forth in the 1st resurrection are in the book of life and those who are judged by their works that come forth in the 2nd resurrection are also in the book of life. That is, only those who come forth in the 2nd resurrection that die the second physical death (Rev. 20:13-14) are not listed in the book of life. So, everyone that is born upon the earth is resurrected. Some to have salvation from their sins and they come forth in the 1st resurrection that spans for a period of 1,000 years, some to come forth in the 2nd resurrection to be judged by their works of which some are given a reward and listed in the book of life, and some not given a reward and die the second physical death. Also, Rev. 20:14 in speaking about death and hell (Rev. 6:8) that are the wicked beast and false prophet of Chapter 13; that these two individuals who were cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20, 20:10) are cast a second time into the lake of fire at Rev. 20:14. Again, this show that they were resurrected and then their resurrected body dies. Because, all life comes from the Savior. And to keep a resurrected body alive the individual must accept the laws of the Savior. If those laws are rejected then the individual who can not sustain a resurrected body is left bodiless. And, to remain bodiless is to not exist in the physical realm. Yet, all who are in the book of life will remain resurrected by the power and authority of Jesus Christ. Some having salvation from their sins and some judged by their works. Interestingly, the above concept is stated in Rev. 14:13 that the dead that die in the Lord are followed by their works. So, how do the dead die in the Lord to be followed by their works but at a judgment. That their works do follow them to the grave to be judged thereby and that is what Rev. 20:12-15 is about: the method of reward for those who are judged. Please notice that those who are in the 1st resurrection are not subject to the second death (Rev. 20:6) because they are not judged having been washed clean (Rev. 1:5) by their Savior. So basically there are two groups of people that are resurrected: those having salvation and those not having salvation. Of those having salvation (the 1st group) they are not judged but live with Christ. And, of the second group all will be judged and divided into two groups that are 1) those who are allowed to keep their resurrected body and 2) those who are not allowed to keep their resurrected body but die a second physical death. venge , I have written the above to try and answer your question to mike , sog , tennessean , in your previous posting that was "I'm curious how either of you understand this saying."
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 25, 2021 14:16:02 GMT -6
Just a small note to insert into the conversation. (proceeds to write an essay! )
Thus, the 1st resurrection is for those having salvation from their sins and the 2nd resurrection is for those who are judged by their works. Something like that. I don't want to hijack the thread (proceeds to hijack the thread). I've thought about the same thing boraddict, . The GWT judgement: Will those in it be given a chance to repent? For example: we know A. Hitler had a wife and maybe for only a few hours, but they knew some semblance of intimacy or love, wouldn't you think? Maybe that's not a good example because he was pretty jacked up on drugs by then, but how about Stalin? He had a family. Surely he knew something about love. Perhaps if these men were shown the truth they might repent? Who knows, but God?
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Post by tennessean on Oct 25, 2021 15:27:26 GMT -6
mike , sog , tennessean I'm curious how either of you understand this saying. Christ comes to earth to reign His followers are to inherit the Kingdom Those that inherit the Kingdom when he reigns will then receive eternal life. Which I find interesting because Timothy said in regards to eternal life, And he links that epiphany with the Kingdom, which the previous verses spoken of by Christ said eternal life was when he comes to reign and we enter the Kingdom Not only that but Christ said, So I guess my question is: Where, in Revelation, do you place this event? When Christ sits on his throne and we inherit the Kingdom that we can receive everlasting life? Otherise, is anyone saying that we receive everlasting life BEFORE the Kingdom which would be contrary to multiple scriptures; would it not? BTW, for those that didnt know, that word "epiphany" is used 6 times. Twice here to refer to be judged and rewarded in his Kingdom, a third is Titus 2:13...the blessed hope and glorious appearing. Guess our blessed hope is really in his Kingdom according to Timothy. The judgement of the nations occurs at the second coming of Christ and what is the basis of the judgement? The basis for this judgement is based on the treatment of his brethren, the Jews.
After the 7 year tribulation period is over , the special dispensation of the 490 years as given to Daniel the prophet concerning his people Israel, will have completed.
Whether or not a gentile enters the 1000 year reign of Christ, depends how the gentile nations treated his brethren, Israel, which came from Jacob.
The Sheep and the Goats
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
When the age of Grace will have ended at the rapture of the church, the beginning of the tribulation period, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble, will commence when the agreement with antichrist will have been put into effect.
Daniel 9:27
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
King James Version (KJV) < Previous Verse Next Verse > ▲ View Chapter
Daniel 9:27 Context
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
What is missing between verse 26 and 27 is the age of Grace, or the church age, which either Gentile or Jew may enter by being "born again"
Romans 10:9 - 10:10
Now viewing scripture range from the book of Romans chapter 10:9 through chapter 10:10... Romans Chapter 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
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