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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 27, 2017 12:05:28 GMT -6
Also, I'd like to point out, that if anybody has any doubts or questions about the key doctrines we acknowledge on this forum, we don't mind honest inquiry as long as it is done in the proper thoughtful, humble approach. Gary has written and linked to a number of articles dealing with key doctrines, and for those who simply don't know what the key doctrines are, or how to find them, we'll be happy to lovingly guide you into the right direction and help you understand them.
However that is different from coming in here in assault mode and belligerently taking offensive action against the truths of the Word of God and the people who believe them.
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Post by socalexile on Jul 27, 2017 19:36:25 GMT -6
Also, I'd like to point out, that if anybody has any doubts or questions about the key doctrines we acknowledge on this forum, we don't mind honest inquiry as long as it is done in the proper thoughtful, humble approach. Gary has written and linked to a number of articles dealing with key doctrines, and for those who simply don't know what the key doctrines are, or how to find them, we'll be happy to lovingly guide you into the right direction and help you understand them. However that is different from coming in here in assault mode and belligerently taking offensive action against the truths of the Word of God and the people who believe them. Is this directed at someone? |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 27, 2017 20:43:47 GMT -6
In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things charity - Francis of Assisi
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 27, 2017 21:59:53 GMT -6
Ok, I've rejected my own study of Jeremiah 31 being for the Church due to 2 new covenants... not one new covenant. I was not aware of this. Romans 11:25-28 basically states there are 2 new covenants, one that Jesus mediates for both Jews and Gentiles paid for by His blood sacrifice (during the fullness of the gentiles before Rapture), and a second new covenant in Jeremiah that is only for the Jews after the Rapture. walvoord.com/article/27I am still however studying the 1st and 2nd Temple dedication ceremonies as a shadow of the 3rd New Jerusalem Wedding Feast (dedication ceremony). I have very high confidence that this one is good. Edit: I have un-rejected this this study based on my findings in the book of Hebrews: unsealed.boards.net/post/6275 |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 27, 2017 22:17:30 GMT -6
Also, I'd like to point out, that if anybody has any doubts or questions about the key doctrines we acknowledge on this forum, we don't mind honest inquiry as long as it is done in the proper thoughtful, humble approach. Gary has written and linked to a number of articles dealing with key doctrines, and for those who simply don't know what the key doctrines are, or how to find them, we'll be happy to lovingly guide you into the right direction and help you understand them. However that is different from coming in here in assault mode and belligerently taking offensive action against the truths of the Word of God and the people who believe them. Is this directed at someone? No, and please don't anyone take it that way. We've had trouble in the past with a few people. Nobody at present is causing this kind of trouble, to the best of my knowledge. We want to be as helpful as we can to everyone at any stage of their spiritual life. The main thrust of our website is toward educating and encouraging people who already know Jesus regarding prophecy and future events. However, we do also want to reach out to people who are searching and wondering about the Bible and God and Jesus, and teach and encourage and help them anyway we can. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 27, 2017 22:22:00 GMT -6
Ok, I've rejected my own study of Jeremiah 31 being for the Church due to 2 new covenants... not one new covenant. I was not aware of this. Romans 11:25-28 basically states there are 2 new covenants, one that Jesus mediates for both Jews and Gentiles paid for by His blood sacrifice (during the fullness of the gentiles before Rapture), and a second new covenant in Jeremiah that is only for the Jews after the Rapture. walvoord.com/article/27I am still however studying the 1st and 2nd Temple dedication ceremonies as a shadow of the 3rd New Jerusalem Wedding Feast (dedication ceremony). I have very high confidence that this one is good. uscgvet, I appreciate how you are willing to modify your ideas based on new research. It's something I think we all have to do as we go along. I've had to modify or at least question my thoughts and views on many topics in the past couple years, especially! About the New Covenant(s), I have suspected for some time now that various verses talking about a New Covenant may be possibly referring either to two different New Covenants, or two editions or renditions of the New Covenant. Things certainly seem to me like there will have to be some sort of a covenant made when our Lord Jesus comes to earth to set up His Kingdom. It would fit the pattern of all the covenants that have been made in the past. |
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Post by whatif on Jul 27, 2017 22:34:34 GMT -6
We are NOT afraid to venture into new doctrine; thus, you'll see all sorts of stuff around here! We are all just trying to figure it out together. Welcome! That is correct, Beloved, we'll discuss any doctrine here for the most part, but this is a great time to remind anybody who hasn't done so to read our Board Rules thread and to remember that key Christian doctrines are always going to be assumed, and not debated. (IE, the truth of the Scriptures, the existence of God, etc.) That does not mean we can't bring those topics up, but not to debate or assault them. The key doctrines we won't compromise on are listed here, as well as the other forum rules: unsealed.boards.net/thread/2/new-members-read-first We want this forum to be a blessing to believers in Christ, and a clear Gospel witness to those who do not know Him yet. This is why we don't want anyone to present false doctrine as if it is fact, or to disparage or harass people for believing the true doctrines of the Bible. If we can follow that rule, and the small number of other rules we have here, we can have a friendly, loving, fruitful environment in which to learn about our Lord and His plans for the future.  Well said, watchmanjim! |
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 30, 2017 18:06:55 GMT -6
Here's something weird and interesting I found... Someone else may have found this too.
Joel 2 vs Song of Solomon
So Song of Solomon is a story between a groom and his bride (or husband and wife) on what seems to be the wedding night... yea it's pretty graphic if you actually look up the Hebrew words on some of the verses. The KJV toned it down a lot.
But there are two links to Joel 2
Check it out:
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Song of Solomon
1:9 "I have compared you, my love,
To my filly among Pharaoh’s chariots. "
So the "Beloved" is being compared to a horse... among Pharaoh's chariots. Ok...
Song of Solomon 2:8-9
"The voice of my beloved!
Behold, he comes
Leaping upon the mountains,
Skipping upon the hills.
9 My beloved is like a gazelle or a young stag."
Joel 2:2
"A people come, great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them,
Even for many successive generations."
OK Joel... what kind of "great and strong" people are we talking about?
Joel 2:4-5
" Their appearance is like the appearance of horses;
And like swift steeds, so they run.
With a noise like chariots
Over mountaintops they leap,
Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble,
Like a strong people set in battle array."
I see a link here between Joel 2 and Song of Solomon 2.
Horses and chariots in both books of the Bible.
I've searched for the keywords "leap" and "mountain" on BibleGateway.com
The combination of the two words together isn't found anywhere except in these two books of the Bible (Joel and Song of Solomon)!
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Here's another link:
Song of Solomon 3:6
"Who is this coming out of the wilderness
Like pillars of smoke,"
And now Joel...
Joel 2:30
"And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke."
pillars of smoke is literally only found in these 2 books of the Bible...!!!
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There are lots of Bridegroom and Bride contexts in Song of Solomon.
... REALLY GRAPHIC!!
But in Joel... the horses are an army! A Fire breathing army!
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Post by whatif on Jul 30, 2017 23:52:21 GMT -6
I've never noticed the connections before, uscgvet! Fascinating!
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Post by socalexile on Jul 31, 2017 0:06:20 GMT -6
So Song of Solomon is a story between a groom and his bride (or husband and wife) on what seems to be the wedding night... yea it's pretty graphic if you actually look up the Hebrew words on some of the verses. The KJV toned it down a lot. SoS is a picture of Christ's relationship to his Bride. It isn't graphic if you research the uses of the terms in the rest of the Bible, but people want to write books that portray it as pornography. Chapters 3 and 5 of the SoS parallel the wise and foolish virgins respectively in Matthew 25. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 31, 2017 10:05:04 GMT -6
Yep, there's more: In both SoS and Joel the "horses" that "leap mountain tops" are an Army: ______________________________________ Song of Solomon 3:"6 Who is this coming out of the wilderness
Like pillars of smoke, Perfumed with myrrh and frankincense,
With all the merchant’s fragrant powders? (myrrh and frankincense??? Christ's Army?)7 Behold, it is Solomon’s couch, With sixty valiant men around it, (This is most likely an army)Of the valiant of Israel. 8 They all hold swords,
Being expert in war.
Every man has his sword on his thighBecause of fear in the night." _______________________________________ Joel 2:"... 1 For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: ... A people come, great and strong, (I think most scholars agree that Joel 2 is describing a locus plague, but I am now leaning towards a real army! Real people! )The like of whom has never been; (This linked with Song of Solomon seems to argue against a bunch of bugs... LOL... especially with the love story of the Bride and Groom)Nor will there ever be any such after them, ... 4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; (I really don't know what to make of the Horse appearance... maybe a uniform? )And like swift steeds, so they run. 5 With a noise like chariots Over mountaintops they leap, ... Like a strong people set in battle array. 6 Before them the people writhe in pain;
All faces are drained of color.
7 They run like mighty men,
They climb the wall like men of war;
Every one marches in formation,
And they do not break ranks.
8 They do not push one another;
Every one marches in his own column.
Though they lunge between the weapons,
They are not cut down.
9 They run to and fro in the city,
They run on the wall;
They climb into the houses,
They enter at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth quakes before them,
The heavens tremble;
The sun and moon grow dark,
And the stars diminish their brightness.11 The Lord gives voice before His army, (Here the army is defined as His army)For His camp is very great;" . . . “30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord." (That's interesting... pillars of smoke...BEFORE the coming of the Day of the Lord...! )_______________________________________________ This is really interesting in my humble opinion. I can't imagine what this could be? I don't think it's a locus plague... I wonder if there are other books of the Bible that also link to this same imagery we are seeing here? More research is needed. |
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Post by socalexile on Jul 31, 2017 11:09:42 GMT -6
Eh, I wouldn't assume that SoS 5 and Joel 2 are talking about the same army. First, the three gifts given to Christ by the Magi were gold, frankincense, and myrrh - the gifts of a king, a priest, and a sacrifice. Frankincense was used by the priests; myrrh is a burial resin. Thus, picture in SoS 3 is different; it's talking about Christ Himself. Joel 2 is supposed to be about locusts based on the context of Joel 1 (remember no chapter divisions originally):
What the chewing locust left, the swarming locust has eaten;
What the swarming locust left, the crawling locust has eaten;
And what the crawling locust left, the consuming locust has eaten.
5 Awake, you drunkards, and weep;
And wail, all you drinkers of wine,
Because of the new wine,
For it has been cut off from your mouth.
6 For a nation has come up against My land,
Strong, and without number;
His teeth are the teeth of a lion,
And he has the fangs of a fierce lion.
7 He has laid waste My vine,
And ruined My fig tree;
He has stripped it bare and thrown it away;
Its branches are made white.
There may be a link between these and Revelation 9, but I think linking it to SoS 3 is a stretch. The army in Joel is one of judgement.
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Post by socalexile on Jul 31, 2017 11:25:24 GMT -6
Bottom line is that we need to define terms, types and shadows as the Bible defines them, not how it seems to us.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 31, 2017 11:38:13 GMT -6
Problem is, Socal, sometimes the biblical context changes. Often times there is paralellism between different passages, and then the question becomes, what the parallel means. Patterns in the scripture are important. Often in one passage there will be more than one meaning. I do believe each passage has a primary meaning, and then many times there is a secondary and multiple ancillary meanings possible.
cgvet, I think, is bringing out a possible valid secondary meaning in SOS and seeing if it links to Joel. Joel has at least 2 meanings immediately apparent for its locust hoards. One is the literal locust hoards that ravished Israel at the time he wrote, the other is the armies the Lord will send to afflict Israel in the end times, ie, Tribulation era. However, it is not clear what the nature of the army in Joel is. Even though God sends it, it is not clear whether the army is man-made, man-equipped, machine-equipped (think drones), demonic-sourced, actual demons/fallen angels, etc., the locust beings from the pit from Rev. 9, or the angelic/saint-equipped army of Christ.
Trying to sort through the soup has always been a challenge, and part of this is because God made it intentionally difficult. We have to study thoroughly and also depend on the Holy Spirit to guide us as we dig deeply for the riches of God's Word.
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 31, 2017 11:40:30 GMT -6
Well. Let's see. Both are describing an Army. Both are saying the army has the likeness of horses. Both are the only books in the entire Bible that contain "pillars" and "smoke" together. Both contain imagery of the army "Over mountaintops they leap" vs "Leaping upon the mountains"... Both are the only books in the entire Bible that contain "leap" and "mountain" together. Both contain imagery of darkness: SoS: "Every man has his sword on his thigh Because of fear in the night." Joel 2: "A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains." I personally think the link is there. We can disagree on the link. ----------------------------------------------- socalexile, "First, the three gifts given to Christ by the Magi were gold, frankincense, and myrrh - the gifts of a king, a priest, and a sacrifice. Frankincense was used by the priests; myrrh is a burial resin. Thus, picture in SoS 3 is different; it's talking about Christ Himself. " Well, in SoS... a few verses down we find gold... "Its support of gold, Its seat of purple, Its interior paved with love" Looks like all 3 gifts are present within a few verses of each other to me! And the picture of Christ Himself that you mentioned is quite interesting IMHO! ----------------------------------------------- I reeeallllly don't think this army is a bunch of little bugs... biblehub.com/interlinear/joel/2-2.htmI think these "people" are quite large in fact! To the likes of which we have never seen before! |
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