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Post by Gary on Jul 10, 2017 10:41:40 GMT -6
Beloved, I'm moved by your post. What humility. If only we all shared Beloved's humility, then we could really grow in the LORD. I see Christ in you.
Like Whatif said, You are sharing the Good News every time you post here.
If you all knew me in person you'd know I'm pretty timid and meek. The thought of vocally sharing the Gospel in person with a stranger turns my stomach inside out and twists my organs into braided knots. Yet there are some easier, winsome ways to do it. One way is to open with a question: "Do you have a faith?" People love questions and love to talk about themselves and God can use the sinful ego of a person to make the perfect entrance.
People screaming through blowhorns on street corners aren't winning over anybody, imho. Evangelism should be done naturally, lovingly, and winsomely.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 10:50:00 GMT -6
I agree KJS... I have seen more breakthroughs with praising. But your process, is what we should all do. Check self first, then 'count it all pure joy' that we are being attacked. We just don't always have to respond to it - other than praising God that we have an intercessor who can take care of those principalities! We just need not to "interfere" with our fleshly ways, which is growth, so that Jesus isn't always having to defend us in a repeating area.
Yes, he is very upset - "Be careful of a man who has nothing to lose" - Satan has already lost. I am reminded of stepping on the head of a small snake - When you hold it down it thrashes about, tail flipping and slapping. That's him - all he can do is flip and thrash and stir up dust. We have the armor to protect us - Christ! We are clothed in Christ!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 11:05:25 GMT -6
For me, I'm dropping seeds everywhere. If a salesman wants to sell me something, I'll tell them "come back after Oct. 15th..if I'm still here". They will inevitably ask - "Are you selling out?" or they'll complain about the world or the times, or they'll be sad and I tell them hope can be found and then I'll go into what I think is going to transpire because the bible says this and that - and I'll tell them that as a believer of Christ, I have to either accept every word whether I understand it or not. They usually go into the 'No one knows' spill or the 'thief in the night' phrase - and then I'll tell them the full context verbiage. They all go away and their 'soil' will determine if it clicks down the line. I figure that even if they tell someone I'm crazy - 'that' someone may be the one it was for. Only God opens the hearts....Paul, Lydia, etc. I just do my job, spread seeds, here a little, there a little,.... water when they have questions/doubts and need encouragement.... and facilitate them to a public profession if they desire.
Just listen to people. If you listen, you'll see where the block is - pray it is removed - and cast subtle seeds. Just don't barrage or overload them. It's a lesson in patience and trust. In a relaxed conversation, I asked my son, 'do you think God will take the ones who were 'just fixing' to accept?' He said 'no momma, he said what he said...he'll make sure that they come on this side, he'll do something.' Such wisdom and trust. Thank you Lord!
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 10, 2017 11:24:40 GMT -6
I want to answer your question about evangelization, and give additional view on the issue. Before I expand, let me put it in summary: - I believe God is doing the drawing to Himself, not human, so God will lead you to say what you need to say, when you need to say it - Your role and gifts God gave you might not include evangelism - You can't be better or worse Christian by doing some specific works (every saved human does some works for God, and fails at others) When Jesus was preparing apostles about getting caught and being brought to justice for spreading the Gospel, He told them: "On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you." What He was saying to them, to ease their minds, is that Holy Spirit is with them and that even in most stressful situations they will witness how God wants them to witness. They don't have to think about it. Before he consoled them, He gave them the message to proclaim to people: "The kingdom of heaven has come near." That's it. That's all He told them to say, as we have recorded. This short sentence confirms right there that Holy Spirit is leading people to witness, because if it weren't so, we would have gotten much detailed instruction on how to do it. Imagine, one's salvation depends of whether he or she will accept Jesus Christ, yet Jesus gives the simplest, shortest sentence to use when witnessing. Why? Again, because Holy Spirit is leading the witnessing, not human. And Jesus told us that His sheep know His voice, so when they hear His voice, they will follow Him. What does that mean? It means that short message given to the right person will produce result, while you can become blue in the face and get nowhere if the person you are wittnesing to is not of the right soil. Take a look at parable of the soil to see how same seed doesn't give same results. Next, Paul talks how Church is one body, and body has different parts and functions. Everybody within the body of the Church is certain part of the body and has certain function and role. Paul says that no role is small or insignificant however it might look. He even says it's the opposite: "Those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment." The same applies to gifts. Everybody gets different gifts, but they all come from God. Read about both gifts and body parts of the Church in 1 Corinthians 12. Finally, everybody does some works for God, and fails at the others. Even the foundational Jesus' command to love neighbour like ourselves is of tall order. I can expand more on this, but maybe this is enough to get you thinking in this direction. P.S. As for witnessing itself, I would start with shorter message, and that would be a Gospel: "Jesus Christ is the Son of God, He paid for our sins on the cross, with His blood, and was resurrected by God the Father. If you believe this, if you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour, you are saved." You can then go from there, or not, depending on the situation. Remember the parable of the soil - not everybody is of the same soil. Also, sometimes what you say will produce results later, not immediately. You don't need to be smooth talker or persona, or to apply some techniques to get attention or get the person warmed up before you present them the Gospel. Take a look at what Paul says: "I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power." P.P.S. Aside you talking, I think great universal suggestion about evangelizing is to propose to people to read John. Just tell them to get the Bible, or even give them the Bible yourself, and suggest to them to read John. John makes the case for believing in Jesus. Henry, some of what you said is very helpful. One thing that is particularly concerning to me, though, is where you say: "- Your role and gifts God gave you might not include evangelism - You can't be better or worse Christian by doing some specific works (every saved human does some works for God, and fails at others) " While there is some truth to what you say here, I don't anybody to get the wrong ideas, because the facts are, as I understand them: 1. Not everybody has the SPECIAL gift of evangelism, but every Christian does have the duty and responsibility to evangelize. 2. It really isn't about being a better or worse Christian, it is about being a more obedient or less obedient servant of God. The term Christian is only a secondary term in the Bible. Servant and disciple are more primary terms describing our calling. (There are others, too, such as ambassador, son, friend, soldier, etc.). But we are all responsible to evangelize and do the basic things of the faith. Beloved is right to be concerned to make sure that she is doing the things God expects from us.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 10, 2017 11:34:11 GMT -6
The second comment about strife and people leaving – you list Brad, gregt, and bloodredmoon – the only one I am aware of was gregt – and even for him it seemed it was more a mutual decision rather than actually kicked out. I been a member of a few blogs, and there has always been heated debate and strife – I would say this one has been fairly quiet on this aspect. Your third comment about prayer, rang a bell with me and I felt the need to share that being a member of this group – I have had the feeling of numerous inadequacies myself. At first I thought it was the Holy Spirit bringing conviction – but when the feelings continued even with confession and asking forgiveness; I started coming to the conclusion it is a form of attack. Now learning you are having these feelings of inadequacies as well…. I am coming to believe it is an attack. What I have started to do – is to Praise Jesus Christ – the Lamb of God for doing EVERYTHING that needed to be done – for me to have fellowship with God. In the end, it all boils down to what Jesus DID FOR US – and never about what we could or would do for Him.I respectfully request you start thanking Jesus Christ for everything He has Accomplished for you; and stop worrying if you have done enough witnessing of whatever. As a side note: this past week I shared with several family members with the very interesting correlation between the Micah 5:2-4 passage and the Revelation 12 sign. Most responded with oh, isn’t that interesting, obviously not even planning to further study it; and only one who seemed to plan on studying on it further. I plan to leave it in God’s hands now. Anyone else been having feelings of inadequacies? If so, is it possible the conversations on this blog is getting someone very upset?KJS, good points. Especially about praising. This is something it is easy to forget to do. Do we praise God enough? I think for myself at least, I forget to. And we must, we need to. We should take time to praise Him and thank Him, both privately and publicly. Regarding stopping worrying about whether you've done enough witnessing--well, worry and conviction are two different things. If you are convicted by the Holy Spirit to do more, as I have been, then you need to listen to Him and act accordingly. I'm trying to reach the lost every way I can, and that is a biblical concept. As far as feeling inadequate--we are ALL inadequate. We are imperfect, fallible sinners. We are inadequate when we look at our own deficiencies. But when we remember that Christ has made us whole--we can now do ALL things through Christ which strengtheneth us. In Christ, we are adequate. We are more than adequate! We are more than conquerors through Him that loved us. Did you hear me? More than conquerors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now--- go in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights.
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Post by whatif on Jul 10, 2017 12:23:18 GMT -6
I love this suggestion, henrym! I keep a stock of Bibles on hand at home, ready for giving away. I know there is some expense in purchasing Bibles, so that may or may not be an easy thing to do if you want to get fresh new ones from a Christian bookstore. But I've also come across nice used Bibles at garage sales for a few cents and once even came across a great stack of Gideon's Bibles at a furniture store. The Bibles had been removed from hotel rooms (sadly), and when I asked what the price was for them, I was told I could take one for free. Any remainders were going to be picked up by a person who gives them to homeless people through a ministry. You never know when you might come across Bibles. You can always keep a few in your car, in case you come across someone in need of one while shopping or going through a drive-through fast-food window. Believe it or not, my husband and I actually spoke with someone many years ago at the window of a fast-food pickup place while we were traveling. The young woman who was taking our payment was in tears and we were asking her if she was all right. She told us she found out from doctors that she didn't have long to live--and here she was working hard in her grief. We didn't have long to share with her about Jesus, as she needed to get to other customers, but we spoke everything we could in the few minutes we had. If at the time we'd had a Bible in our vehicle, we would have given it to her. So my husband and I went to buy one and came back to the restaurant to see if we could talk with her maybe on a work break. I don't know but that maybe she left work while we were out getting a Bible for her, because when we returned to the restaurant her coworkers couldn't find her, and they took the Bible for her.
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Post by whatif on Jul 10, 2017 12:28:06 GMT -6
I want to answer your question about evangelization, and give additional view on the issue. Before I expand, let me put it in summary: - I believe God is doing the drawing to Himself, not human, so God will lead you to say what you need to say, when you need to say it - Your role and gifts God gave you might not include evangelism - You can't be better or worse Christian by doing some specific works (every saved human does some works for God, and fails at others) When Jesus was preparing apostles about getting caught and being brought to justice for spreading the Gospel, He told them: "On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you." What He was saying to them, to ease their minds, is that Holy Spirit is with them and that even in most stressful situations they will witness how God wants them to witness. They don't have to think about it. Before he consoled them, He gave them the message to proclaim to people: "The kingdom of heaven has come near." That's it. That's all He told them to say, as we have recorded. This short sentence confirms right there that Holy Spirit is leading people to witness, because if it weren't so, we would have gotten much detailed instruction on how to do it. Imagine, one's salvation depends of whether he or she will accept Jesus Christ, yet Jesus gives the simplest, shortest sentence to use when witnessing. Why? Again, because Holy Spirit is leading the witnessing, not human. And Jesus told us that His sheep know His voice, so when they hear His voice, they will follow Him. What does that mean? It means that short message given to the right person will produce result, while you can become blue in the face and get nowhere if the person you are wittnesing to is not of the right soil. Take a look at parable of the soil to see how same seed doesn't give same results. Next, Paul talks how Church is one body, and body has different parts and functions. Everybody within the body of the Church is certain part of the body and has certain function and role. Paul says that no role is small or insignificant however it might look. He even says it's the opposite: "Those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment." The same applies to gifts. Everybody gets different gifts, but they all come from God. Read about both gifts and body parts of the Church in 1 Corinthians 12. Finally, everybody does some works for God, and fails at the others. Even the foundational Jesus' command to love neighbour like ourselves is of tall order. I can expand more on this, but maybe this is enough to get you thinking in this direction. P.S. As for witnessing itself, I would start with shorter message, and that would be a Gospel: "Jesus Christ is the Son of God, He paid for our sins on the cross, with His blood, and was resurrected by God the Father. If you believe this, if you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour, you are saved." You can then go from there, or not, depending on the situation. Remember the parable of the soil - not everybody is of the same soil. Also, sometimes what you say will produce results later, not immediately. You don't need to be smooth talker or persona, or to apply some techniques to get attention or get the person warmed up before you present them the Gospel. Take a look at what Paul says: "I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power." P.P.S. Aside you talking, I think great universal suggestion about evangelizing is to propose to people to read John. Just tell them to get the Bible, or even give them the Bible yourself, and suggest to them to read John. John makes the case for believing in Jesus. 1. Not everybody has the SPECIAL gift of evangelism, but every Christian does have the duty and responsibility to evangelize. 2. It really isn't about being a better or worse Christian, it is about being a more obedient or less obedient servant of God. The term Christian is only a secondary term in the Bible. Servant and disciple are more primary terms describing our calling. (There are others, too, such as ambassador, son, friend, soldier, etc.). But we are all responsible to evangelize and do the basic things of the faith. Beloved is right to be concerned to make sure that she is doing the things God expects from us. Yes, I agree with that, as well, watchmanjim!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 12:47:15 GMT -6
No one was kicked out. Gregt left, which was sad, but he took Brad with him, which was what really hit me, because he was one of the first people to welcome me, and he worked with me on our little project with Planetary Jubilees. I was also hit when bloodredmoon left because I had asked him to come to the board, and I really loved his insight.
I do need to spread the Gospel, because it is my job and duty as bondservant of Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 21:02:46 GMT -6
1. ...every Christian does have the duty and responsibility to evangelize. 2. It really isn't about being a better or worse Christian, it is about being a more obedient or less obedient servant of God. The term Christian is only a secondary term in the Bible. Servant and disciple are more primary terms describing our calling. (There are others, too, such as ambassador, son, friend, soldier, etc.). But we are all responsible to evangelize and do the basic things of the faith. Beloved is right to be concerned to make sure that she is doing the things God expects from us. Jim, I think it's more complex than that. Jesus gives many commands. And we fall short on all of them. What about Jesus commanding us to love our enemies? Not only to forgive them, but to love them. And they are current enemies. They currently hate us. Jesus commands us to love them and if they want to take things away from us, to give them even more than what they want. What about Jesus commanding us to abandon all possesion? In Acts two people are killed by God, on site, after they proclaimed belief in Jesus Christ and then they didn't sold and gave to church all their possesions, but kept hidden some of it for themselves. There is no example in the Bible that a believer in Christ was murdered by God because he or she didn't evangelize. What about Jesus commanding us we are to cut off our hand and take out our eye if they share in sin? I don't think that's symbolic language. I think it's literal. What about Jesus commanding us to love others like we love ourselves? When you think about what that really means, to love all other people you meet just like you love yourself, we should be most concerned about this command. That's the second most important command Jesus gives us. That's the second most important work to do. He doesn't mean we should only love our family and friends like ourselves. He is talking about all people we meet in our street, city, country, around the world. Just like God the Father gave OT commandments to show that even in their best efforts people fall short, Jesus gave commandments to reveal the same thing. To show us that we need a saviour, that we can't help ourselves, that we can't bootstrap our way through righteousness. We are to put our destiny into God's hands, not ours. So when Paul talks about Body of Christ being made of different parts, then not every part has the same duty. Can we trust God in what He gave us to be our place and gift? Can we trust that God knows what's best? Paul says there are parts of the Body that seem weaker, less honorable and are directly unpresentable. In a clock there are many parts, and not every part gets to be big high moving gear. Some parts are not gears at all, but little bolts and pins. Does bolt gets to move just because it wants or think it's the duty, although it can't and it's not it's funtction within the body of a clock? Isn't that disobedience? There is a lot to be said on this topic. What I'm saying is that it's more complex issue than about something being duty and responsibility.
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Post by whatif on Jul 10, 2017 23:02:41 GMT -6
The greatest way to show people love, henrym, is to tell them about the Lord--to let them know they can have hope and forgiveness and life eternal. That doesn't mean we beat them over the head with a Bible, but we share the truth with them because we love them and we don't want them to suffer the torment of hell. Yes, I do believe there is a special gift of evangelism that some are given. I don't have that particular gift. Mine lies elsewhere. But even though that gift is not mine, I know that Jesus wants me to shine His light in this dark world, and part of that shining is to pass that light on to others by telling them what the Lord has done for me, letting them know the truth of what His Word says about salvation, answering questions they may have about what I believe, and encouraging them to seek Him out themselves.
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Post by whatif on Jul 10, 2017 23:16:33 GMT -6
1. ...every Christian does have the duty and responsibility to evangelize. 2. It really isn't about being a better or worse Christian, it is about being a more obedient or less obedient servant of God. The term Christian is only a secondary term in the Bible. Servant and disciple are more primary terms describing our calling. (There are others, too, such as ambassador, son, friend, soldier, etc.). But we are all responsible to evangelize and do the basic things of the faith. Beloved is right to be concerned to make sure that she is doing the things God expects from us. What about Jesus commanding us to love our enemies? Not only to forgive them, but to love them. And they are current enemies. They currently hate us. Jesus commands us to love them and if they want to take things away from us, to give them even more than what they want. I would say, henrym, that there is a reason Jesus would want us to show our enemies love... and that is because it shows them who He is even though their ears may be closed to listening to what we tell them about Him. It is a powerful form of evangelism in itself.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 11, 2017 1:06:09 GMT -6
We all have the duty of evangelism. It is one of our primary duties. Jesus added it in the Great Commission right before He ascended into Heaven. Today, I have heard it referred to sadly as the "Great Omission" because so many Christians, so called, do not evangelize, or do it sparingly.
Now regarding adequacy, and how much obedience is enough, etc.:
We always need to be growing and changing to be more conformed to the image of Christ. It is a journey, not a one-time event. As we see deficiencies, we work WITH our God to improve in those areas.
I think of sin in our lives as being like the engineering concept of "drag" when applied to aerodynamics. Every airplane has a certain coefficient of drag. Planes that are not very aerodynamic are considered "dirty" and have a very high coefficient of drag. Think of a World War I biplane, for instance. The drag is all the odd-shaped stuff that sticks out and catches wind-resistance. Now if airplane engineers want to make a plane faster, they have to make the plane more aerodynamic. To do that, they reduce the amount of things that stick out into the wind. They make the plane more streamlined so the air can flow around it better. A plane with a lower coefficient of drag is called a clean-looking plane. A Cessna 172 is a much cleaner plane than a WWI biplane. But you can get cleaner yet-- a Supermarine Spitfire is cleaner than a Cessna. And an F-104 Starfighter is incredibly clean.
Coefficiency of drag is represented as a decimal. A very dirty plane might have a coefficient of .35 or even more. A cleaner plane, .25. A really clean plane, .15. But here's the thing. If you try to make a plane cleaner and cleaner, each .01 cleaner is harder to obtain than the .01 before. There is no possible way on earth to ever obtain a .00 coefficient for an airplane. If you get it down below .15 you are doing very well. But the engineer can still strive to continue shaving coefficient off for even more improvement.
And that is how we need to be with our sanctification. Some people think that spiritually speaking, we actually can achieve zero drag in our spiritual life--ie, no sin. Actually, I do believe it is obtainable for a certain amount of time, but I think it is highly unlikely that anyone would be able to live so close to God that they could go for days on end without sinning even once. But that is what we must strive for--but only WITH HIS HELP! We can do ALL things through Christ which strengtheneth us! So we must look to Him to show us where we need to improve. Beloved has identified an area the Lord wants improvement, and that is great. Let's all go into this together--WE ARE MORE THAN CONQUERORS THROUGH HIM WHO LOVED US!
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Post by whatif on Jul 11, 2017 1:22:16 GMT -6
Watchmanjim, I'd give you 10 thumbs up if I were able to on the thumbs-up thingymajig.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 7:42:33 GMT -6
Agreed whatif.
To henry: No, Jesus used a hyperbole when he talked about cutting off your hand, and eye, because you can fondle with the other jand, and list with the other eye. Even if you cut off/plucked out both, you could still list with the mind's eye. Jesus is saying to act as drastically as needed to WIPE OUT SIN. Jesus said His burden was light; cutting off your hands it not a light burden.
The Jews couldn't follow the old law. They had uncircumcised hearts, and a heart of stone. God has given us a new heart, a circumcised heart, a heart of flesh. Thus, with the Spirit's help, we CAN fulfill the commandments. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments". All the commands in the New Testament are from God, and we keep them because we love Him. Paul says, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" We are to be holy and sanctified, living a life pleasing to God. When Jesus is Lord, you must obey His commands.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 7:53:02 GMT -6
God is beyond us, but He gave us a simple plan. He said, "Follow Me". Christian means, Little Christ. Are we to treat the commands of God like an unholy thing? By no means! Follow Him.
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