Hey Debra, welcome to the forum!
I appreciate your humility on the subject. The majority of us here are persuaded by the Scriptural case for a pre-trib rapture. I've had a diligent, personal study of eschatology for about 8 years now and that has led me from a pre-wrath view to a fully pre-trib view, but I'm also open to being wrong. While most of us may be looking for a pre-trib rapture, the intention here is to have a unique forum where Christians can have genuine fellowship regardless of views on non-core doctrines. The key to this fellowship working is simply the Holy Spirit, humility, and kindness. Therefore you're more than welcome to share your thoughts/theory just keeping in mind rule #3
here.
Personally, I can see a number of reasons why a post- or pre-wrath view will cause deception if the rapture is indeed pre-trib, but again, I could be wrong. I want to remain humble about it.
I was not intending to sound argumentative. I was only attempting to answer the question posed, “why people who aren't PreTrib worry about those of us who are.” The answer to that question is basically, because it is important. I apologize if I came across too strong.
I greatly appreciate the work you and others have done in studying and revealing the Heavenly Signs and other Biblical topics. The reason I joined this forum is because I believe I have discovered something important in my study of the Revelation that I would like to share. The following are a excerpts from my study that I posted here earlier today. These excerpts will give you an idea of what I have discovered about how the Book of Revelation is ordered.
I believe the Book of Revelation is written in precise chronological order. Certain events, which take place over a long period of time, are placed in the book according to the timing of the conclusion of the event, not the beginning of the event. The events described in Chapters 11-13 are placed in the Revelation at the point in which each of these events conclude, just prior to the bowls of wrath being poured out.
Chapter 6
Isaiah 66:7-8 states that the birth will occur before the travail. “7 Before she was in labor, she gave birth; before her pain came, she delivered a male child. 8 Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children.” Notice verse 7 says male child, singular; and verse 8 says children (some translations say “sons”), plural. The Revelation 12 Sign is of a woman in travail; and according to Isaiah, the birth of the male child (Messiah) happens before the 9/23/2017 Sign (travail); and the birth of the children happens “as soon as Zion was in labor.” The Sign represents both the birth of Christ as Conquering King, and the renewing of God's Covenant with Israel. It represents both Israel bringing forth the Messiah, and Zion (the Land) bringing forth her sons (the Nation of Israel). It is Zion (the Covenant Land) that brings forth the children. Zion does not bring forth the Church. Zion, the Land of God’s forever Covenant with Israel, brings forth the Nation of Israel.
Micah 5:2-3 states, “2 (And thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall he come forth unto me who is to be Ruler in Israel: whose goings forth are from of old, from the days of eternity.) 3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time when she which travaileth shall have brought forth: and the residue of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.” The Nation of Israel will be “given up” until after the Messiah (male child) is born. The Messiah was born to a human woman, and came to Earth as a suffering servant, nearly 2000 years ago. He will soon be born again (at least symbolically), shortly before the travail (9/23/2017); and return to Earth (7 years later) as a Conquering King!
The birth of the children (representing the renewing of God’s Covenant with Israel) will occur “when she which travaileth shall have brought forth,” and “as soon as Zion was in labor.” In other words, God’s Covenant with Israel will be renewed (including the return of all of the Covenant Land to Israel) after she has brought forth (given birth to) the Messiah (male child); and as soon as the labor begins (the Revelation 12 Sign of 9/23/2017).
The birth of the male child (Messiah), as symbolized in the Revelation 12 Sign cannot have taken place nearly 2000 years ago. They that were “given up” until after the birth of the male child are the Israelites. Israel was “given up,” will remain “given up,” until after the second (symbolic) birth of the Messiah; “and the residue of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.” God’s Covenant with Israel will be renewed after the symbolic birth of the Messiah as Conquering King.
Something similar to what is described in Psalm 83 will wipe out all of the surrounding enemies of Israel. For the next 3.5 years (the first half of the Tribulation), Israel will have all of the Covenant Land in their possession, will be living in peace and safety, and will be able to build the temple. Additionally, something is likely to happen in the United States on, before, or very soon after 9/23/2017 that will drive the 1/2 of Israel currently living in the US back to the Covenant Land to fulfill the Micah 5:3 prophecy. While Israel is living in peace and safety during the first half of the Tribulation, the rest of the world will be experiencing war and famine. The six Seals listed in Revelation Chapter 6 will take place during this time. With Israel living peacefully and prosperously while the rest of the world will be in turmoil, the nations of the world will become jealous of Israel’s prosperity; and will decide to go and plunder Israel. This will lead to Ezekiel 38 (Gog of Magog), at the midpoint of the Tribulation.
Chapter 12
Chapter 12, which gives us an overview of the entire 7-year Tribulation period, is a good example of a chapter being placed within the Book of Revelation at the point in which the events described therein are completed. The chapter is laid out as follows:
The Sign of the Woman and the Sign of the Dragon
The beginning of the war in Heaven
Satan being cast to earth at the midpoint of the Tribulation
The remnant of Israel being protected in the wilderness during the final 42 months of the Tribulation
Satan/the antichrist being angry that the Woman (remnant of Israel) escaped
Satan/the antichrist persecuting the remnant of Israel’s seed (the saints) during that same 42 months
All of these events take place over 7 years, followed by the Bowls of Wrath and the Battle of Armageddon. Even though none of the plagues/judgments are directly mentioned in Chapter 12, the plagues are directly related to the events of Chapter 12. Just as the Sign of the Woman is an actual astronomical event; so is the Sign of the Dragon, whose tail casts 1/3 of the stars of heaven to earth at the beginning of the Tribulation (possibly representing a meteor storm). Revelation 12:16 describes the earth opening up and swallowing a pursuing flood (probably an army), thereby protecting the Woman (Israel) in her escape to the wilderness at the midpoint of the Tribulation. This miraculous event is caused by an earthquake (the Golden Censer), which is recorded in Revelation 8:2-5. A Golden Censer is filled with fire from the altar, and the fire is cast to the earth resulting in voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. All of the Signs and events depicted as happening in the heavens throughout the Book of Revelation have a direct cause and effect relationship with the events happening on Earth. I would imagine that even the war in heaven in some way directly affects events occurring on the earth. All of the plagues/judgments described in the Book of Revelation fit into the Chapter 12 overview (with the exception of the Bowl Judgments, which take place immediately following the events of Chapter 12).
At the placement of Chapter 12 within the Book of Revelation, the events in this Chapter have all taken place. This is the point in time when the 42 month protection of the woman/remnant of Israel (144,000) ends; and the 42 month persecution of the saints ends. At this time the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the Harpazo/Rapture. The Bowls of God’s Wrath and the Battle of Armageddon will follow soon after the 7th Trumpet.
Chapter 13
Chapter 13 describes the time of the Antichrist and the false prophet. At their placement in Chapter 13, all of the events described have just concluded. The antichrist and the false prophet have already been persecuting the Saints for 42 months (during the last half of the Tribulation), and their 42 months to persecute the saints has ended. The saints were gathered off the earth at the 7th Trumpet, during the Feast of Trumpets (Chapter 11). Next, the Bowls (Chapter 16) will be poured out in very quick succession (during a period of about 10 days, between the Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement); followed by Armageddon on the Day of Atonement (Chapter 19); followed by the Antichrist and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire (also Chapter 19).
Chapter 15
The Revelation 12 Sign will occur on 9/23/2017; and there is another Sign that will appear just before the Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath are poured out on the wicked of the earth. Revelation 15:1 describes another Sign in heaven. This is the same Sign (the Sign of the Son of Man) referred to by Christ in Matthew 24:30, which immediately follows the tribulation. Unfortunately, Revelation 15:1 has been poorly translated. John saw a Sign in heaven that was “great and marvelous.” Then he saw seven angels with the seven plagues. These are two separate things being described, and should be two separate sentences.
The word “marvelous,” (Strong’s G2998) is only used 7 times in the New Testament.
Three times in conjunction with the Stone the builders rejected (Matthew 21:42, Mark 12:11, & I Peter 2:9)
Once in conjunction with the Healer (John 9:30)
Once in conjunction with the Sign of the Messiah (Revelation 15:1)
Once in conjunction with the Song of the Lamb (Revelation 15:3)
Once in conjunction with Satan, the imposter of Christ (II Corinthians 11:14)
According to Strong’s, G2998 can be translated as:
Worthy of pious admiration
Passing human comprehension
Causing amazement joined with terror
Marvelous, extraordinary
Six of the seven times G2998 is used it is in reference to the Messiah, and one time it is in reference to the imposter of the Messiah. This word, “marvelous,” is not used in Revelation 15:1 to describe the seven angels or the seven Bowls of God’s Wrath that are about to be poured out. “Marvelous” is describing the same Sign (the Sign of the Son of Man) that Christ mentioned in Matthew 24:30.
Revelation 15:2-5 describes the saints singing praises to God following the Harpazo/Rapture. Verses 6-8 describe the preparation for pouring out the Bowls of God’s wrath on the wicked remaining on the earth, now that the saints have been removed from the earth.
Chapter 19
Revelation 19:1-6 shows many people, the twenty-four elders, and the four beasts worshipping, singing, and praising God. Revelation 19:7-9 states, “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”
The bride is given time to prepare herself following the 7th Trumpet (Harpazo/Rapture, Feast of Trumpets). After the 7th Bowl of Wrath, but just before the Battle of Armageddon (Day of Atonement), the bride is shown as having made herself ready. The next thing to take place after the Day of Atonement is the week long Feast of Tabernacles. I believe the week long wedding feast will occur during the week long Feast of Tabernacles. That, I believe, is a perfect parallel to the Jewish wedding feast customs.
Revelation 19:11-21 describes the Battle of Armageddon. At the end of this battle, the antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Outline of the Book of Revelation
Chapter 1
Introduction
Chapters 2 & 3
Letters to 7 Churches in Asia (Modern Turkey)
Chapter 4
Throne of God, 24 Elders, and 4 Living Creatures
Heavenly Court - Possibly Judgment of Satan and Fallen Angels
Chapter 5
Only the Messiah is Worthy to Open the Book Sealed with Seven Seals
Chapter 11 - Begins Here
Measure the Temple - Prepare to build the Third Temple
Chapter 12 - Begins Here
The heavenly signs and the war in heaven are described in chapter 12, at the point in time that these events conclude. Here, before the opening of the first seal, is where these events begin.
It appears that the seven-year war in Heaven brings calamitous events to the earth, described throughout the Book of Revelation in the Seal Judgments, Trumpet Judgments, Bowl Judgments, and other judgments mentioned.
Sign of the Woman (Israel) in the Heavens 9/23/2017 - Following the Feast of Trumpets
Sign of the Great Red Dragon (Satan) in the Heavens - During the Sign of the Woman
Beginning of War in Heaven - Following the Sign of the Great Red Dragon (Satan)
Chapter 6 - Following Soon After the Sign of the Woman
1st Seal - White Horse - Conquering Ruler
2nd Seal - Red Horse - War & Rioting
3rd Seal - Black Horse - Famine
4th Seal - Pale Horse - Kill 1/4 of Population
5th Seal - Souls of Martyrs Under Altar
6th Seal - Great Earthquake & Meteor Storm
Chapter 7 - Probably Toward the End of the 1st 3.5 Years, Before the Midpoint Events
144,000 Sealed - 12,000 of Each Tribe of Israel
Multitude of Old Testament Saints in Heaven
Chapter 11 - Resumes Here, at the Midpoint
Holy City Tread Under Foot 42 Months Begins Here
Two Witnesses 1260 Days Begins Here
Chapter 12 - Resumes Here, at the Midpoint
Satan Cast to Earth
Midpoint of the War in Heaven - Now taking place on Earth
Gog of Magog (Ezekiel 38)
Protection of Israel 42 Months Begins Here
Persecution of the Saints Begins Here
Chapter 13 - Begins Here
Antichrist Persecution of the Saints for 42 Months Begins Here
Chapter 17 includes further description of the antichrist
False Prophet 42 Months of Deception Begins Here
Chapter 8 - Calamitous Midpoint Events
7th Seal - Silence in Heaven - Pause before the calamitous midpoint events
Golden Censer - Voices, Thunderings, Lightnings, Earthquake
This is the Earthquake that splits the Mount of Olives, allowing a remnant of
Israel to escape to the wilderness.
1st Trumpet - 1/3 of Trees and Grass Burned
2nd Trumpet - 1/3 of Sea turned to Blood
3rd Trumpet - 1/3 of Rivers Poisoned
4th Trumpet - 1/3 of Sun, Moon, and Stars Darkened
Chapter 9 - Midpoint Events Continued
5th Trumpet - Demons From the Pit of Hell
6th Trumpet - 1/3 of Men Killed
Chapter 10 - Events Begin Here
Seven Thunders - May occur any time during final 3.5 years
There is No More Time - 7th Trumpet is About to Sound
Little Book - The Second Coming of the Messiah is Sweet, but also Bitter
Chapter 11 - Events Ending Here
Holy City Tread Under Foot for 42 Months Ending Here
Two Witnesses 1260 Days Completed - Resurrected just before 7th Trumpet
Great Earthquake - 7,000 in Jerusalem Killed
7th Trumpet - Lightnings, Voices, Thunderings, Earthquake, Great Hail
First Resurrection & Gathering of Saints/Harpazo
Feast of Trumpets 10/3/2024
Chapter 12 - Events Ending Here
All of chapter 12 is written describing events that occur over a 7 year time span. At this point, all these events are concluded, including the end of the war in heaven, and the end of the protection of Israel, and the end of the persecution of the saints.
War in Heaven Ends Here - Satan is out of Time
Protection of Israel Ends Here
Persecution of the Saints Ends Here
Chapter 13 - Events Ending Here
Antichrist Persecuting the Saints for 42 Months of Ends Here
False Prophet 42 Months of Deception Ends Here
Chapter 14 - Events Occur Between Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement
144,000 Israelites on Mount Zion
Angel Preaching the Gospel
Destruction of Babylon
Warning! Penalty for Worshiping the Beast or Taking his Mark
Some still have not Received the Mark of the Beast
Martyrs at the End of the Tribulation - Tribulation Saints
During this very short period of time, some will repent
Prepare for Reaping the Wicked of the Earth
Chapter 15 - Events Occur Between Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement
Another Sign in Heaven - The Sign of the Son of Man
Tribulation Saints Sing Praises to God
Prepare the Seven Last Plagues - The Wrath of God
Chapter 16 - Just Before the Day of Atonement
Seven Bowl Judgments:
1st Bowl - Grievous Sores
2nd Bowl - Sea Turned to Blood
3rd Bowl - Rivers and Fountains Turned to Blood
4th Bowl - Solar Flare?
5th Bowl - Seat of the Beast Darkened
6th Bowl - Armies Gather for Armageddon
7th Bowl - Great Earthquake, 100 Pound Hail
Chapter 17
Judgment of the Harlot (Catholic Church/Vatican)
Chapter 18
Destruction of Babylon (Europe, USA)
Chapter 19
Bride is Now Prepared for the Wedding Feast
Armageddon - Gog of Magog (Ezekiel 39)
Final Battle of the War in Heaven - Now taking place on Earth
Day of Atonement 10/12/2024
Antichrist & False Prophet cast into Lake of Fire
Chapter 20
Satan Bound 1,000 Years
The Wedding Feast - Fast of Tabernacles 10/17/2024
1,000 Year Reign Begins
Final Battle - Gog of Magog
Satan Cast into Lake of Fire
Second Resurrection & Judgment
Chapter 21
New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem
Chapter 22
Come Lord Jesus
LOL--I just need to keep reading the posts! Thank you, evenso! I'm notorious for responding before I've read everything...
