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Post by yardstick on Aug 15, 2017 22:59:34 GMT -6
Something that comes to mind here. I am on my phone so I don't have a lot of resources and I'm going off (what's left of) my memory. Why are confident the sign of the dragon is in the sky? Does it have be that John saw it in the stars? I think it's alluded to that it may not be in the sky in either Yardsticks or KJS but nonetheless. Could it be that John saw this in the "heavens" or spirit realm not the stars? Just a thought, cuz the next scene is the Dragon getting thrown to earth, which would not be in the stars. The word for 'heaven' used in Rev 12:1-2 is the same word used in 3-4. If we are looking to outer space for the Rev 12:1-2 sign, then it logically follows that the 3-4 sign will also be there, albeit sans sun and moon. With respect to the stars, maybe it only looks celestially like 1/3 of the stars are thrown to the earth (even through spiritually the passage is referring to angels). Hence, my point about the Draconids. However, I like Gary's timeline. It makes a lot of sense. Oh, and FYI, in case it isn't obvious, the Draconids fit in Gary's timeline too. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 16, 2017 1:01:33 GMT -6
3. Revelation 12:3-4 follows as satan and his angels are cast to the earth ( Watchmanjim might want to chime in on this as there is an interesting thing going on with σύρει in v. 4). That's right, Gary, there may be something there (evidently) but I'm not real sure I want to throw it out there at this time. I have a reason for not wanting to disclose it yet. Maybe at a later date. |
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Post by brad on Aug 16, 2017 9:16:40 GMT -6
Rev. 12:1-2 is clearly a literal sign in the heavens - sun, moon, and stars. Rev. 12:3-4, however, may not be. Consider that the sun and moon are not mentioned. That just leaves stars and stars are definitely mentioned in verses 3-4, but... these particular stars are cast to the earth (see Rev. 12:7-9), so that begs the question, are these stars supposed to indicate an actual alignment as in verses 1-2, or might they simply indicate angels as elsewhere in Revelation (e.g., Rev. 1:20)? In the Revelation 12 narrative, at some point we have to draw a distinction between astronomy and rapture/Tribulation events. I propose that verses 1-2 are astronomy, and 3-on are narrative. Remember that Revelation speaks of both true and false σημεῖον (signs). Take a look at Rev. 13:14, 16:14, 19:20. Compare to 2 Thess. 2:9 where we learn that the man of lawlessness will appear on the world scene accompanied by all sorts of false signs.
The Dragon sign could be a supernatural event which occurs directly after the rapture! Here's the verse you quoted... makes a lot of sense! 2 Thessalonians 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. |
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Post by socalexile on Aug 16, 2017 9:17:57 GMT -6
At this moment, there is nothing I can find that fits the description of the Dragon, and the only thing those who are looking at this can produce is conjecture about "planet X" that no evidence exists for. Without the Dragon, Clarke's idea about the rapture on the 23rd has little basis. We may need to consider another interpretation.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 16, 2017 9:31:55 GMT -6
Hi guys. I've watched a several videos by Daniel Valles on YouTube (his channel is called "informed christians"), and he has an interesting theory on the red dragon. He suggests that John, being a sailor/fisherman, would have known that the "great dragon" was Draco in the night sky and that 1/3 of the stars indicates a time lapse of Draco as it "swims" around the arctic circle, dragging it's tail and those stars that follow it. This dragging of the tail 1/3 of the night sky represents X amount of days before Draco comes to face the woman in September. Supposedly, we are right now in the time frame of the dragging (it would've begun sometime in the first week of august, I believe). He also uses many descriptions of the seasons and harvest found throughout rapture/2nd coming scripture to say that we are indeed in that season (for example, turtle dove migration, tender grapes, "untimely figs" etc etc). I would need to go back and view his videos again to be more specific and find the exact verses. It is quite intriguing and fits in with John describing the dragon not as a "great sign."
Here is his latest video:
It spends a lot of time considering the coming eclipse in relation to the past two total eclipses and 4 blood moons, which is pretty intriguing in itself. Towards the end he goes back over the Draco sign and how he came to those conclusions. Of course you can always go to his channel and find his videos that are more specific to solving the dragon. I didn't have time this morning to do that, but just wanted to throw this possibility out there if it has not been considered before.
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Post by brad on Aug 16, 2017 9:43:17 GMT -6
At this moment, there is nothing I can find that fits the description of the Dragon, and the only thing those who are looking at this can produce is conjecture about "planet X" that no evidence exists for. Without the Dragon, Clarke's idea about the rapture on the 23rd has little basis. We may need to consider another interpretation. I agree with you on planet X... I have not yet seen any good evidence for it... Gary's thoughts are the best explanation I have yet seen... Why are we insisting that the dragon must be stars and planets that align? Maybe the best reason why we have not yet found it (plenty of us have been looking), is because it will appear supernaturally at the exact moment of the rapture... in the clouds ready to devour us! Think of this... if the dragon sign is going to be an instantaneous appearance.... AND... we knew exactly when it would happen..... we would know the day, hour, minute and second of the rapture.... Lets be patient.... since there are many theories about rapture timing ranging from August 21 to late November..... I'd say we are in the time for High alert! |
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 16, 2017 10:03:37 GMT -6
Something that comes to mind here. I am on my phone so I don't have a lot of resources and I'm going off (what's left of) my memory. Why are confident the sign of the dragon is in the sky? Does it have be that John saw it in the stars? I think it's alluded to that it may not be in the sky in either Yardsticks or KJS but nonetheless. Could it be that John saw this in the "heavens" or spirit realm not the stars? Just a thought, cuz the next scene is the Dragon getting thrown to earth, which would not be in the stars. The word for 'heaven' used in Rev 12:1-2 is the same word used in 3-4. If we are looking to outer space for the Rev 12:1-2 sign, then it logically follows that the 3-4 sign will also be there, albeit sans sun and moon. With respect to the stars, maybe it only looks celestially like 1/3 of the stars are thrown to the earth (even through spiritually the passage is referring to angels). Hence, my point about the Draconids. However, I like Gary's timeline. It makes a lot of sense. Oh, and FYI, in case it isn't obvious, the Draconids fit in Gary's timeline too. Yes it is the same. I have been slow responding and researching. My daughter has been very sick and ended up in the emergency room with Roseola last night :/ I did find something rather interesting though with the word that is described in verse 4 about the stars being "swept" away. I am not anywhere near the levels most of you guys are on knowledge of the Bible, but this is just an idea: I think the verses 3-4 goes back to being symbolic and not something that is a literal alignment in the sky but it is describing an event that is being witnessed in Heaven. The "tail" of the dragon is satans deceit on the fallen angels and their following of his ways instead of Gods. The informal definition of tail is this: follow and observe (someone) closely, especially in secret. As in " a loin TAILED a gazelle in his hunt waiting for the right time to attack." The Greek word used to describe the sweeping away is "Suro" which is defined as: : I draw, drag, force away. The stars/angels are forcedor drawn out or away from heaven because of the following of Satan. In following him over God they are forced or dragged away. Because it does not describe the sun and the moon as the first versus did, maybe it goes back to being symbolic? The heads are not in my opinion literal heads or something in a constellation that can be seems, but as in head leaders, chiefs, the adjective of head. There are seven chiefs that are in with Satan and these "leaders" play a role of the other fallen angels being dragged away. God has archangels, why wouldn't Satan as far as we know? The horns of the heads are a symbol of power (also informal definition of horn) confirming the "heads" roles as higher than the other stars. Diadems are also defined as wreaths, ring or crown going around the head. Archangels are described as having a wreath or ring of light around their head. This is pointing out WHO these seven heads are, not what. They are of very high ranking and with their "power" drag/force a third of the angels down with them who possibly followed Satans ways and not Gods. This is strongs definition of the word sign: sēmeíon – a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to CONFIRM, CORROBORATE or AUTHENTICATE. 4592 /sēmeíon ("sign") then emphasizes the end-purpose which exalts the one giving it. Accordingly, it is used dozens of times in the NT for what authenticates the Lord and His eternal purpose, especially by doing what mere man can not replicate of take credit for. I think in this verse the use of the word sign is CONFIRMATION of the time that Satans fallen are forced and dragged away with him. The rapture or whatever Sign that is given in heaven signaling that it is happening is describing the events being witnessed in versus 3-4. I could be totally off and this is just an opinion. Anymore information and opinions regarding this would be greatly appreciated. Adding to this: Verse 1-2 is describing the action or act of the rapture , verses 3-4 are the reaction to this action taking place. Cause and reaction. Also adding: If this has already been covered or I missed an article or something, I apologize. This literally popped in my head and I went on from there at lightening speed in my thoughts lol. |
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Post by socalexile on Aug 16, 2017 10:05:07 GMT -6
Hi guys. I've watched a several videos by Daniel Valles on YouTube (his channel is called "informed christians"), and he has an interesting theory on the red dragon. He suggests that John, being a sailor/fisherman, would have known that the "great dragon" was Draco in the night sky and that 1/3 of the stars indicates a time lapse of Draco as it "swims" around the arctic circle, dragging it's tail and those stars that follow it. This dragging of the tail 1/3 of the night sky represents X amount of days before Draco comes to face the woman in September. Supposedly, we are right now in the time frame of the dragging (it would've begun sometime in the first week of august, I believe). He also uses many descriptions of the seasons and harvest found throughout rapture/2nd coming scripture to say that we are indeed in that season (for example, turtle dove migration, tender grapes, "untimely figs" etc etc). I would need to go back and view his videos again to be more specific and find the exact verses. It is quite intriguing and fits in with John describing the dragon not as a "great sign." Here is his latest video: It spends a lot of time considering the coming eclipse in relation to the past two total eclipses and 4 blood moons, which is pretty intriguing in itself. Towards the end he goes back over the Draco sign and how he came to those conclusions. Of course you can always go to his channel and find his videos that are more specific to solving the dragon. I didn't have time this morning to do that, but just wanted to throw this possibility out there if it has not been considered before. What does he say about the Dragon specifically? I've looked at his graphics, but havent heard his explanation. |
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Post by brad on Aug 16, 2017 10:51:53 GMT -6
At this moment, there is nothing I can find that fits the description of the Dragon, and the only thing those who are looking at this can produce is conjecture about "planet X" that no evidence exists for. Without the Dragon, Clarke's idea about the rapture on the 23rd has little basis. We may need to consider another interpretation. OK, so your conclusion is.... without the dragon we may need to consider another interpretation?How about throwing one out there ... What exactly do you mean? You are making lite of a well thought out explanation... surely you have another idea? |
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 16, 2017 11:31:28 GMT -6
At this moment, there is nothing I can find that fits the description of the Dragon, and the only thing those who are looking at this can produce is conjecture about "planet X" that no evidence exists for. Without the Dragon, Clarke's idea about the rapture on the 23rd has little basis. We may need to consider another interpretation. OK, so your conclusion is.... without the dragon we may need to consider another interpretation?How about throwing one out there ... What exactly do you mean? You are making lite of a well thought out explanation... surely you have another idea? Yes, that's what I'm wondering. In my opinion, not having found the dragon yet is TO BE EXPECTED. The context of the passage seems to indicate that the dragon will not be seen until the birth process in at hand. I would not expect to see the dragon until late in the whole pregnancy process. But. We are approaching the end, and that indicates to me that the dragon could show up at any time now. |
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Post by yardstick on Aug 16, 2017 12:47:10 GMT -6
The word for 'heaven' used in Rev 12:1-2 is the same word used in 3-4. If we are looking to outer space for the Rev 12:1-2 sign, then it logically follows that the 3-4 sign will also be there, albeit sans sun and moon. With respect to the stars, maybe it only looks celestially like 1/3 of the stars are thrown to the earth (even through spiritually the passage is referring to angels). Hence, my point about the Draconids. However, I like Gary's timeline. It makes a lot of sense. Oh, and FYI, in case it isn't obvious, the Draconids fit in Gary's timeline too. Yes it is the same. I have been slow responding and researching. My daughter has been very sick and ended up in the emergency room with Roseola last night :/ I did find something rather interesting though with the word that is described in verse 4 about the stars being "swept" away. I am not anywhere near the levels most of you guys are on knowledge of the Bible, but this is just an idea: I think the verses 3-4 goes back to being symbolic and not something that is a literal alignment in the sky but it is describing an event that is being witnessed in Heaven. The "tail" of the dragon is satans deceit on the fallen angels and their following of his ways instead of Gods. The informal definition of tail is this: follow and observe (someone) closely, especially in secret. As in " a loin TAILED a gazelle in his hunt waiting for the right time to attack." The Greek word used to describe the sweeping away is "Suro" which is defined as: : I draw, drag, force away. The stars/angels are forcedor drawn out or away from heaven because of the following of Satan. In following him over God they are forced or dragged away. Because it does not describe the sun and the moon as the first versus did, maybe it goes back to being symbolic? The heads are not in my opinion literal heads or something in a constellation that can be seems, but as in head leaders, chiefs, the adjective of head. There are seven chiefs that are in with Satan and these "leaders" play a role of the other fallen angels being dragged away. God has archangels, why wouldn't Satan as far as we know? The horns of the heads are a symbol of power (also informal definition of horn) confirming the "heads" roles as higher than the other stars. Diadems are also defined as wreaths, ring or crown going around the head. Archangels are described as having a wreath or ring of light around their head. This is pointing out WHO these seven heads are, not what. They are of very high ranking and with their "power" drag/force a third of the angels down with them who possibly followed Satans ways and not Gods. This is strongs definition of the word sign: sēmeíon – a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to CONFIRM, CORROBORATE or AUTHENTICATE. 4592 /sēmeíon ("sign") then emphasizes the end-purpose which exalts the one giving it. Accordingly, it is used dozens of times in the NT for what authenticates the Lord and His eternal purpose, especially by doing what mere man can not replicate of take credit for. I think in this verse the use of the word sign is CONFIRMATION of the time that Satans fallen are forced and dragged away with him. The rapture or whatever Sign that is given in heaven signaling that it is happening is describing the events being witnessed in versus 3-4. I could be totally off and this is just an opinion. Anymore information and opinions regarding this would be greatly appreciated. Adding to this: Verse 1-2 is describing the action or act of the rapture , verses 3-4 are the reaction to this action taking place. Cause and reaction. Also adding: If this has already been covered or I missed an article or something, I apologize. This literally popped in my head and I went on from there at lightening speed in my thoughts lol. Your analysis appears to be spot on. Satan 'leads the angels away' from God by deceit. Maybe he 'leans on them' a little to side with him. Makes promises, cajoles: "You too can have dominion"... Maybe he promises them the 7 nations and 10 leaders as a means of gaining said dominion. The 7 and 10 to be theirs in whatever way they wish (genetic manipulation/possession?) if they side with him. With their duplicity/complicity, 1/3 of the angels are 'forced away' from God... The Rev 12:3-4 sign is most certainly a confirming sign, not just of Rev 12:1-2, but possibly also of the choice that the 1/3 made. Interesting. p.s.: I believe it is verse 5 that has the harpazo, rather than verses 1-2? But if you see something, please describe. p.p.s.: hope your daughter gets better soon! |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 16, 2017 12:50:05 GMT -6
Hi guys. I've watched a several videos by Daniel Valles on YouTube (his channel is called "informed christians"), and he has an interesting theory on the red dragon. He suggests that John, being a sailor/fisherman, would have known that the "great dragon" was Draco in the night sky and that 1/3 of the stars indicates a time lapse of Draco as it "swims" around the arctic circle, dragging it's tail and those stars that follow it. This dragging of the tail 1/3 of the night sky represents X amount of days before Draco comes to face the woman in September. Supposedly, we are right now in the time frame of the dragging (it would've begun sometime in the first week of august, I believe). He also uses many descriptions of the seasons and harvest found throughout rapture/2nd coming scripture to say that we are indeed in that season (for example, turtle dove migration, tender grapes, "untimely figs" etc etc). I would need to go back and view his videos again to be more specific and find the exact verses. It is quite intriguing and fits in with John describing the dragon not as a "great sign." Here is his latest video: It spends a lot of time considering the coming eclipse in relation to the past two total eclipses and 4 blood moons, which is pretty intriguing in itself. Towards the end he goes back over the Draco sign and how he came to those conclusions. Of course you can always go to his channel and find his videos that are more specific to solving the dragon. I didn't have time this morning to do that, but just wanted to throw this possibility out there if it has not been considered before. What does he say about the Dragon specifically? I've looked at his graphics, but havent heard his explanation. Do you mean when/where in the previous video I linked to? It's around the 28 minute mark, but it's a recap of his work and discussion thus far from all his videos. I found a better video that explains his view more thoroughly. He has a lot of videos. I haven't watched them all, so I don't know when he started looking at Draco or when he started developing this theory etc. Here it is: |
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Post by yardstick on Aug 16, 2017 12:50:30 GMT -6
At this moment, there is nothing I can find that fits the description of the Dragon, and the only thing those who are looking at this can produce is conjecture about "planet X" that no evidence exists for. Without the Dragon, Clarke's idea about the rapture on the 23rd has little basis. We may need to consider another interpretation. OK, so your conclusion is.... without the dragon we may need to consider another interpretation?How about throwing one out there ... What exactly do you mean? You are making lite of a well thought out explanation... surely you have another idea? I was thinking that just because we cannot figure it out now, does not mean it will not be revealed in the next 40 days or so... |
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Post by yardstick on Aug 16, 2017 12:53:03 GMT -6
OK, so your conclusion is.... without the dragon we may need to consider another interpretation?How about throwing one out there ... What exactly do you mean? You are making lite of a well thought out explanation... surely you have another idea? Yes, that's what I'm wondering. In my opinion, not having found the dragon yet is TO BE EXPECTED. The context of the passage seems to indicate that the dragon will not be seen until the birth process in at hand. I would not expect to see the dragon until late in the whole pregnancy process. But. We are approaching the end, and that indicates to me that the dragon could show up at any time now. And the birth process appears to begin on Sept 9. So that makes < 24 days. But my bet is that we may see something (even if I don't know what it is) during the eclipse. The sun will not be blocking stuff out at that time. Neither will google sky or NASA or anyone else. Remember Julius Caesar: "The Ides of March are not yet past." edit - I have a hunch that if there is an object out there, it will be on the left side of the sun. In fact, if its during the eclipse, it will be on the left side or above the moon too. |
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Post by brad on Aug 16, 2017 12:53:29 GMT -6
I agree with you Yardstick! Totally agree!
(with the wait for the dragon to appear part)
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