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Post by disciple4life on Sept 5, 2017 10:48:27 GMT -6
1a and 1b --- Many people believe the harpazo can and only will occur on the Feast of Trumpets – which makes the 21st and 22nd the most likely dates – if they are true. If they are correct – than the “Last trump” takes on more meaning – namely, the 100th sounding of the trumpet for that feast. 1c – Yes, Jacobs Trouble is only for Israel (and possibly why Micah 5:3) stands out so much…because it claims the abandonment of Israel will cease when the “BIRTH of Son Occurs”. Assumption is that have the harpazo – people left behind will be so freaked out; that they will be grasping for any reasonable explanation (as long as it does not have to do with God). Most feel there is a “Time Period” between the harpazo and the covenant “AFFIRMING” (notice covenant is only affirmed and NOT Signed) WHICH implies IT is an existing covenant. 1d thru 2 – there is too many dates and potentials to get a handle – so they could be right or they could be a waste a space to even speculate. My Gut tells me – harpazo will happen before 9/23 (or it could be something I ate) – any rate if the harpazo does not occur before the end of September 2017 – than I suspect it will not happen this year. 3a – No the Body of Christ is NEVER referred directly as the “Bride of Christ” here is a website that has a good paper on the subject doctrine.org/the-bride-of-christ/OK, will end my first response here ….. having such large responses generally makes people “SKIM” the words – rather than READ…… Very good thought KJS, I am among those who believe that Harpazo is the Feast of Trumpets, for two big reasons. 1 As Gary and others have mentioned, the Last Trumpet that Paul refers to in I Cor 15:52 is one of the three most widely used and known passages for the rapture. It cannot refer to the trumpets in Rev, because I Cor was approx. 40 years before Revelation was written. He couldn't refer to something God had not even revealed. and 2 The feasts are inseparably linked to the Messiah, and the first four have already been fulfilled in perfect order, and perfect precision. The next one is Feast of Trumpets. and the 3 Fall feasts are all connected to End Times. The other two are Day of Atonement and Feast of Booths/ Sukkot. Even the majority of those who think the rapture is mid-trib or post-trib, make the connection between the Fall Feasts and the Return of the Lord. Rapture and Second Coming, Millennium. ;-)
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Post by Natalie on Sept 5, 2017 13:15:06 GMT -6
D4L - I do lean that way but its hard to imagine that every single pre-school, grammar school and most kids up to maybe high school in America and across the world will suddenly be empty, saved by His mercy. Then those who will actively re-populate the world during the ensuing 7 years will have children, leaving those age 0-7 to be utterly destroyed in the years to come. This is where I struggle with the balance. I'm sure God has it all worked out just as He wants it, but its hard for me to make sense that all will be gone then more to suffer after. This is something I have gone back and forth on, too. My current thought is that God would rapture children up to a certain age, and I don't know what that is, of believers. I base this on 1 Cor 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy." This came up in a study I was doing on 1 Corinthians. The unbeliever is not saved, but the household is set apart; God will bless the house because of the believers in it. They still have to come to a point where they trust Jesus for their salvation, but up to that point I see children of believers below the age of accountability as belonging to Him. Now, children of other religions do not belong to Him because their parents are teaching them to follow idols. I am open to changing my mind about this, but so far this has made the most sense to me. |
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Post by mike on Sept 5, 2017 14:26:21 GMT -6
D4L - I do lean that way but its hard to imagine that every single pre-school, grammar school and most kids up to maybe high school in America and across the world will suddenly be empty, saved by His mercy. Then those who will actively re-populate the world during the ensuing 7 years will have children, leaving those age 0-7 to be utterly destroyed in the years to come. This is where I struggle with the balance. I'm sure God has it all worked out just as He wants it, but its hard for me to make sense that all will be gone then more to suffer after. This is something I have gone back and forth on, too. My current thought is that God would rapture children up to a certain age, and I don't know what that is, of believers. I base this on 1 Cor 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy." This came up in a study I was doing on 1 Corinthians. The unbeliever is not saved, but the household is set apart; God will bless the house because of the believers in it. They still have to come to a point where they trust Jesus for their salvation, but up to that point I see children of believers below the age of accountability as belonging to Him. Now, children of other religions do not belong to Him because their parents are teaching them to follow idols. I am open to changing my mind about this, but so far this has made the most sense to me. Yeah I'm just not sure about this. I suppose I dont need to be either.  If we say children are innocent, then every single kid under the age of whatever will be taken. I lean towards what you state a little. If they are being taught heresy then its possible they would remain with the parents. IDK. I do stick to this theme when talking to people "Let's focus on you, what do you believe" because people ask questions to find out why they shouldnt believe that have little to do with them (what about Islam, what about homosexuals, what about this) |
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 5, 2017 23:23:46 GMT -6
Well I guess we will see.
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Post by Rick on Sept 7, 2017 10:20:04 GMT -6
1a and 1b --- Many people believe the harpazo can and only will occur on the Feast of Trumpets – which makes the 21st and 22nd the most likely dates – if they are true. If they are correct – than the “Last trump” takes on more meaning – namely, the 100th sounding of the trumpet for that feast. 1c – Yes, Jacobs Trouble is only for Israel (and possibly why Micah 5:3) stands out so much…because it claims the abandonment of Israel will cease when the “BIRTH of Son Occurs”. Assumption is that have the harpazo – people left behind will be so freaked out; that they will be grasping for any reasonable explanation (as long as it does not have to do with God). Most feel there is a “Time Period” between the harpazo and the covenant “AFFIRMING” (notice covenant is only affirmed and NOT Signed) WHICH implies IT is an existing covenant. 1d thru 2 – there is too many dates and potentials to get a handle – so they could be right or they could be a waste a space to even speculate. My Gut tells me – harpazo will happen before 9/23 (or it could be something I ate) – any rate if the harpazo does not occur before the end of September 2017 – than I suspect it will not happen this year. 3a – No the Body of Christ is NEVER referred directly as the “Bride of Christ” here is a website that has a good paper on the subject doctrine.org/the-bride-of-christ/OK, will end my first response here ….. having such large responses generally makes people “SKIM” the words – rather than READ……
Very good points KjS..... as to point 3a I would have to agree emphatically that we are not the bride of Christ. We (the church) are the body of Christ. Israel is the bride of Christ and always has been as mentioned in so many places in the bible. Christ isn't going to marry himself ( the church or "body" of Christ) he is going to marry Israel. |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 7, 2017 15:43:06 GMT -6
Saying the Church is not the bride of Christ because the scripture doesn't say it, is a lot like saying the Bible doesn't say rapture, or the Bible doesn't say Trinity. There are multiple clear examples where the husband /wife metaphor, husband wife relationship is used, and it's clearly not only Jews.
Ephesians 5 uses the example of Christ's relationship to the church as instructive for marriage. Ephesians 5:23 talks about the husband being head of the wife (leader of the family) and compares that to Christ being the head of the church. Similarly, verse 24 notes that the church is to submit to Christ; the comparison here involves the submission of a godly woman to her loving husband.
Ephesians 5:25-27 describes how Christ loved the church and gave His life for it. Likewise, a husband is to love His wife unconditionally and without limit. Christ loves the church as He loves Himself (Ephesians 5:28-30). Likewise, a husband is to love his wife as himself, considering their marriage as "one body."
The Ephesians 5 passage on marriage summarizes, "let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband" (v. 33). Mutual love and respect form the basis for a God-honoring marriage. Likewise, Christ's love for the church and the church's love and respect for Christ form the basis for a God-honoring church.
Second Corinthians 11:2 offers a similar look at Christ as the groom and the church as the bride of Christ. Here Paul writes, "For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." Paul uses this analogy to show his love for the Corinthian believers, serving in the role as a spiritual father, offering the church at Corinth to Christ as the groom. By the middle of the first century, these churches to whom Paul wrote, there were many Gentiles, and there's no basis to support the notion that these epistles which were written to Gentile believers should only apply to Jews. Seems like a small issue of semantics, and Jews who accept the messiah and Gentile believers will be raptured together. respectfully - Disciple4life. Maranatha!
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Post by whatif on Sept 7, 2017 18:33:29 GMT -6
Perhaps the answer to this can be found in Matthew 19:4-6. "Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
I suspect in this way the Church can be both the bride of Christ and the body of Christ. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 19:39:34 GMT -6
I have an opinion here, but am feeling a bit skittish right now. I believe the Bride of Christ is Zion. And that Zion is the fully manifested, fully restored, and fully grafted Israel (hebrew and gentile). Please see the article recently posted by Gary about Emmanuel for a little more detail: www.unsealed.org/2017/09/o-come-o-come-emmanuel.html. Part 2 of this article will go into this a bit deeper. But more truly, it is the belief system, the one true "religion" (i hate that word). It is difficult to separate the people from the belief system and that is why I think we see it both ways - she is the church, but she is not the church. The story of history is the story of two women - two belief systems - two cities - two kingdoms: Babylon and Zion. I have much more to say about this, but don't have the time to say it all now. I hope to write some of this in part 2 to the Emmanuel article, but this will need to go through Gary first. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 9, 2017 19:55:57 GMT -6
Two women also: Rachel and Leah.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 9, 2017 21:09:29 GMT -6
D4L - I do lean that way but its hard to imagine that every single pre-school, grammar school and most kids up to maybe high school in America and across the world will suddenly be empty, saved by His mercy. Then those who will actively re-populate the world during the ensuing 7 years will have children, leaving those age 0-7 to be utterly destroyed in the years to come. This is where I struggle with the balance. I'm sure God has it all worked out just as He wants it, but its hard for me to make sense that all will be gone then more to suffer after. Conversely though, if God doesn't rapture children, how many kids will be left parentless and then still have to suffer in the Trib? What if the mark of the beast makes people sterile who have it. Or if the mark somehow makes people into hybrid nephilim who supposedly "could" live forever, perhaps reproducing is not something that will be wanted? Or maybe the AC will say that children aren't allowed to be born and force abortions on people who have the mark "until the world becomes more stable" or something like that. God didn't spare the children of the wicked people when the flood came. Neither did He spare the children of Israel or Judah when Assyria and Babylon took them over. IMO, children born during the Tribulation (if there are any born within the AC kingdom) will be a sad but inevitable casualty of the times. It does seem to indicate that Jewish women will be raped and some of them will be pregnant or nursing when the AoD occurs and they're trying to flee. If the nephilim idea is real, it would indicate that they can reproduce with at least humans (maybe not with each other). This may be the tares being sown in the wheat that the farmer allows to grow up with the wheat until the harvest. Then the tares are harvested together and burned up. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 10, 2017 6:57:38 GMT -6
As explained elsewhere, I believe the tares and wheat parable is referring to the Kingdom age, where they grow up together and are separated at the end.
You make some good points about the children. I really don't know how it's going to work out, but I have faith for our own children at least, that God will not leave them alone and helpless if they are too young to understand.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 10, 2017 9:10:45 GMT -6
As explained elsewhere, I believe the tares and wheat parable is referring to the Kingdom age, where they grow up together and are separated at the end. You make some good points about the children. I really don't know how it's going to work out, but I have faith for our own children at least, that God will not leave them alone and helpless if they are too young to understand. Yes, during the messianic kingdom (that's what you mean by kingdom age, correct?), that the tares sown by nephilim raping Jewish women during the tribulation would grow up in the kingdom and are the ones who will be part of the rebellion at the end. This is not my theory, this is one promoted by Jaco Prinsloo, and others perhaps that I don't know. I'm currently studying his ideas. I haven't come across the wheat/tares parable here in the discussion board. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 10, 2017 22:56:36 GMT -6
Well I don't know if that is what causes it, I think it's just from regular human beings choosing to disobey Christ and not trust Him for salvation. But I guess we'll see. . . .
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 11, 2017 1:45:23 GMT -6
Hey Yardstick. I love the thread. Some very interesting points to consider. I don't want to hijack your thread - and not sure if this would fit better somewhere else. Mike alluded to several of these same ideas, (what if nothing happens, the dates are incorrect, etc) I see so many people who are putting so much hype, and hope onto the Sept alignment. I think it means something - but what really bothers me - (a ginormous red flag - that very few seem to have noticed) is the "This can't be debunked" mentality. I think it's very dangerous. We all see through a glass dimly.
Then this is underscored by multiple teachers/ end times gurus who so desperately want to 'make it fit' that they say the Sept alignment falls on Rosh Hashanah - It doesn't - period. Yom Teruah - Feast of Trumpets starts on Sundown Wed 20th, and goes to Sundown Friday 22nd. 2 days. Friday at sundown begins the high Sabbath of Shabbat Shuva - which means "Return" and this is enormously significant. A better connection that trying to make it fit Feast of Trumpets.
- I positively believe that certain numbers have great significance in scripture, but combining 7 with 5 in a year, 5777 and combining 33 and 7 and 5 and 12 and 40 and 70 and using numbers in Strong's Concordance is a huge stretch and I think actually weakens the overall argument. These Strongs numbers are only keyed to 2 or 3 translations if I'm not mistaken. I know, and believe God is a God of order and precision - but seeing someone in a mall with a 7-up shirt is not a 'confirmation of perfection and completeness and that means we're going up."
- I believe in precision and order - the Feasts are Moadim - appointed times, and they all point to Christ - and the First four have been fulfilled by Christ in perfect order and in perfect precision - not the day before, or a few days later. Christ either fulfills these or He doesn't. Scripture says Gentiles accepted truth to provoke the Jews through jealousy. What better way to do this, than to have the rapture, and second coming, and Millennial reign be exactly fulfilled in feasts.
- The other thing - is that there are some really great prophecy teachers, whom I love and respect, but they all have different 'timelines' and this is another huge red flag. They are putting 'so-called gaps' in there that aren't in the scriptures. I've seen timeline with 57 day gap, I've seen a timeline with 75 day gap, and a 30 day gap.. ;-(
Again, I think the Sept alignment means something, but there is a huge amount of speculation. I get it - people say Rev 12 is a parenthesis. I get it, it's rare. I get the fact that we have new technology. The sign fits for the first few verses of Rev 12, but not the part about the dragon. This entire software is man-made, and while it can be helpful for Christians, it's not the Bible. I've also heard that this 'alignment' happened at the birth of Christ. - I've searched and found multiple sources that confirm and corroborate the idiom of the Thief in the Night being a Hebrew idiom, and have found this in multiple commentaries, - not just repeated by people with a web-cam. **I would be happy to share this research/sources. I've asked non-Christian /traditional rabbis about the phrase No One Knows the Day or the Hour. They never heard this phrase - ;-( [It totally makes sense from a logical perspective] but it bothers me that so many prophecy teachers and gurus use this as a foundational argument and no one can provide a source from history or non-Christian Jewish writings or Talmud. Feels a bit like an echo chamber. I'm watching expectantly, and feel that a lot of things from scripture, and history, and heavenly signs and very unusual weather patterns are all adding up, lining up. I think this is the year. Yom Teruah /Feast of trumpets is a time of reflection and repentance - search my heart, confess sins and draw close to God. If the rapture doesn't happen this year, I've lost nothing. Grace and peace, Disciple4life. ;-)
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Post by mike on Sept 11, 2017 6:50:01 GMT -6
disciple4life - agree with you on everything. I am hopeful and desirous for the sign to equate to believers being raptured. But it is possible the sign is just that "a sign". The quote above is also something that I wanted to chime in on. I do believe that some of the numbers mean things but not all of them. I think we can stretch what we want numbers to mean and make them "fit the narrative". While all the numbers are interesting and thought provoking, they may not fit. The focus (IMO) should be the sign itself. With our technology we realize the sign is coming and thankfully we have it. But without it, we may not have seen it at all. It couldve passed....I realize that isnt the reality but I do think about it that way as well. Another thought I had while reading a piece of John last night was that the apostles (all of them) missed signs while they were physically with the Lord. John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. 3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. 4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. 5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. 6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, 7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. 8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
Isn't it very possible we are missing something in the Word as well? They thought His body was stolen Mary found angels where He was, then turned and didnt initially recognize Him. 12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.And like us today even though we know the sign is coming, there are doubters, like Thomas. He had the other 10 plus others tell him the Lord was alive yet wouldnt believe until he saw it for himself, 8 days later. 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
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If we say children are innocent, then every single kid under the age of whatever will be taken. I lean towards what you state a little. If they are being taught heresy then its possible they would remain with the parents. IDK.
