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Post by socalexile on Sept 12, 2017 1:37:37 GMT -6
I was just banned from a Rev. 12 Facebook group for essentially contradicting Paul Washer on the Gospel. Good times.
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The man gives lip service to grace, then teaches all sorts of works (angrily, I might add).
When you ask people hard questions they don't want to answer, they threaten and accuse rather than discuss. Then they'll shut you down. It's the same tactic that the political left uses.
Anyways, be wary of this group.
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Post by sawdy on Sept 12, 2017 7:33:53 GMT -6
I guess it is hard for us as humans to comprehend that there is nothing we can do (short of repent, ask forgiveness, and invite Jesus to be your Lord and Savior) that makes us deserving of the gift of salvation.
We always seem to be doing something at all times, so why would we approach salvation differently?
I have a friend who strongly believes in Grace THRU faith, that is, a continually almost hourly renewal of faith because, what if your faith isn't true in the moment that it matters?
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Post by socalexile on Sept 12, 2017 7:48:51 GMT -6
I guess it is hard for us as humans to comprehend that there is nothing we can do (short of repent, ask forgiveness, and invite Jesus to be your Lord and Savior) that makes us deserving of the gift of salvation. We always seem to be doing something at all times, so why would we approach salvation differently? I have a friend who strongly believes in Grace THRU faith, that is, a continually almost hourly renewal of faith because, what if your faith isn't true in the moment that it matters? I have no idea what it is. Some may think they deserve it more than others; and some may have a problem understanding that it is really the one thing that is truly free in this world. Still others get their ideas from preachers who can rile a crowd, or have big churches, or sound right before they even really think about what they read in their Bibles. Two points in your reply: first, "repent" means "to change your mind" as in you've changed your opinion about Jesus - and BTW, it never appears in the Gospel of John, which was written for the purpose evangelism (John 20:31). Second, your friend doesn't actually believe in salvation by grace - because they think there is some work or goal they must accomplish. Because he/she doesn't actually think that Christ's atonement is sufficient to pay for ALL sin forever. Yes we do need to remind ourselves, but that has to do with our resting in Christ and not our salvation. This is the issue I run into. The Gospel has been so muddied by false preachers and bad theologians that people don't believe the Biblical Gospel when they hear it. |
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Post by sawdy on Sept 12, 2017 8:17:16 GMT -6
Thanks for you insights. I appreciate it.
I never realized that about repent. Probably because I grew up hearing about it a lot. I left the faith as a teen because my Dad (a "born again" Catholic) took his faith in an extreme direction with some interesting pastors. I didn't agree with what I had to sit through, so eventually I decided it was all wrong.
It is very hard to be discerning of teachers. Sometimes one can have a lot of good in their message, only to be way off in another area.
We also have to be patient and forgiving of others when they make a mistake in what they are saying. We may not all have the same level of learning or insight into something.
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Post by socalexile on Sept 12, 2017 8:35:04 GMT -6
We also have to be patient and forgiving of others when they make a mistake in what they are saying. We may not all have the same level of learning or insight into something. I generally start off with a simple statement, then the ball gets rolling quick. In the end, it's often a case with evangelicals that they think that works automatically come with salvation, so they end up backloading the gospel so it still ends up to be, "no works = not saved" only they're saying that it is necessary to prove salvation. I think this sums up the dilemma:  |
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 12, 2017 8:42:10 GMT -6
So after laying all this out there, Socal, what would you show as the way of a person determining for sure whether they have eternal life, and have been saved through faith?
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Post by mike on Sept 12, 2017 8:43:08 GMT -6
socalexile totally true. I was saved into a church that taught grace and works "your works are evidence of your faith". I may have mentioned this to you elsewhere but after about 7-8 yrs of that i was completely burnt out and eventually completely backslidden. Dont get me wrong, there was a lot of good teaching as well. My fault for walking away from the Lord, no excuses. A couple years ago I was thinking to myself "I need to get back to God, the bible and a church, but I'm going to focus on the main point. Blood, death-burial, resurrection". To many divisions and views about everything. His mercy, His grace, my acceptance of that. At times I still struggle with "wanting to earn..." but I am reminded quickly of my many years where I was away and realize, there's nothing I can do to erase that and earn my way back into grace. (which is a good thing!)
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 12, 2017 9:02:45 GMT -6
This was a quote from an Unknown in reply to the article: Get on Board the Ark "I think there is a third category of people - or maybe it's a sub-category. Those who think that just because they call themselves a Christian and say they believe in Jesus that they then can do whatever they want. Those who say they have faith, but can't show it with any works (James 2). Jesus is the only way to God, but part of following Jesus is... you know... actually following him. If we don't care about the things of God at all, or we substitute Jesus' commands with our own versions of what obeying God means, then we could be surprised to find Jesus saying to us, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not do what I tell you?" Luke 6:46
The obedience is by no means what gets us into heaven. The obedience simply shows that we trust him enough to actually do what he says. And what he says is simple - John 15:12, John 15:17, 1 John 3:23, 1 John 3:16-18, 1 John 3:11"
While I agree that what we do, how we act, is a great indicator of our Walk with the Lord, who are we to say a person is not saved by their outward appearance or work? Yes, when we see fellow brethren stumbling, we should come along side them. 1Thes 5:14,15 "And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else." Interesting socalexile , I was going to ask you about this person's comment because I kinda got frustrated with it. It seems this person is saying that these are fake Christians who are not saved or will miss getting on the ark, then at the end clarifies that "obedience is by no means what gets us into heaven." This person is making a judgment on someone's walk. It seems to me there is a distinction between salvation, and the rewards (inheritances?) given at the Bema seat.. I myself need grace everyday. I struggle to live a sinless life, but I pray about it everyday, talk to and ask for forgiveness from the Lord. I know the Holy Spirit is at work in me, but I am sure at my church there are people who wonder about me. This last statement on the HS is important, I think. How does one really know the heart of a person? How do we know what the HS is really doing in that person's life? There are some that just do not go to church for example, and their fellowship is weak at best, but does that mean they are not Saved? What is the Gospel message? There is no baptism mentioned in it, yet I know that Baptism is a public statement of professing one's faith and belief in Jesus. Repentance IS though part of it. Metanoiae. As sinners we have to Change our mind. Turn from the worldly things, and follow Christ and His Gospel way. But can we, do we do it perfectly? Through who's eyes? Jesus or man? Perhaps a fellow believer who hasn't changed his mind on certain parts of the Word is where we raise an eyebrow over his belief system. All we can do is encourage one to seek the Scriptures for the truths. Typically I think the reason for mis-interpreting God's Word is from a "teacher" or leader who mis-guides them. Is salvation at stake for this person who was taught wrong by someone else? I am not talking about a wrong Gospel, something other than God's son Jesus Christ on the cross, died, buried, resurrected. I am talking about the muddied waters of all this work stuff added (or subtracted). For sure it seems like some of us are having to "clean up" the mess others have created in false teachings. In the end, those who take on pastoring/shepherding a flock have a bigger responsibility to answer if in error of the Word. Even so, the likes of a prosperity teacher, ie Joel O are like nails on a chalk board to me, yet if he truly believes in the correct Gospel, he will be saved. Don't ya think? Ironically I know of a person who was saved through televangelism years ago, and became a pastor and a good one here locally. Funny how the Holy Spirit works! |
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Post by mike on Sept 12, 2017 9:05:51 GMT -6
So after laying all this out there, Socal, what would you show as the way of a person determining for sure whether they have eternal life, and have been saved through faith? In my experience I had an acquaintance who thought he was the modern day John the Baptist. He would run around evangelizing saying "just pray this prayer and you go to heaven" which is not "repentance". Some of what Socal shows (I believe) is certainly doctrinal error of "working for salvation" but true repentance will lead to change in a believers life. How that shakes out is between that person and the Lord, not for me to say (I'm not the judge). I guess an example I struggle with would be those who claim to be saved and love the Lord yet are in some type of sin. Doesnt matter which one as I believe sin is sin in His sight. There is no venial or (cant remember the other type-mortal?) sin to differentiate. So the one I often hear questioned is homosexuality. So and so loves God and has accepted Jesus, yet is stuck in that lifestyle. I would think most (including myself) see this as falling into #4 or are they truly saved and dont need the "evidence". Theyve repented or changed their minds on every world view imaginable, but this one hasnt manifested yet. Does God give up on them and give them over? Or is it part of working out salvation? |
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Post by socalexile on Sept 12, 2017 9:21:30 GMT -6
So after laying all this out there, Socal, what would you show as the way of a person determining for sure whether they have eternal life, and have been saved through faith? By what they say...which is what Jesus was getting at with the allegory of "fruit" in Matthew 7 and Luke 6. If someone says they are saved by putting their faith alone in Christ alone, that they then HAVE eternal life eternally, and that they can never lose it since it is Christ who saves them, then there is nothing more I an do. God knows the heart - I can't make the determination that many do that someone isn't meriting salvation. for one, it's not by merit; two, that's waaaaay above my paygrade. When someone states that someone else makes a salvation judgement on another, that's basically putting oneself on the throne of God to determine who He can save. My job is to steer people towards Christ, preach the clear Gospel so people can understand it, even though they may reject it - not determine who is and isn't saved. |
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Post by socalexile on Sept 12, 2017 9:34:43 GMT -6
This was a quote from an Unknown in reply to the article: Get on Board the Ark "I think there is a third category of people - or maybe it's a sub-category. Those who think that just because they call themselves a Christian and say they believe in Jesus that they then can do whatever they want. Those who say they have faith, but can't show it with any works (James 2). Jesus is the only way to God, but part of following Jesus is... you know... actually following him. If we don't care about the things of God at all, or we substitute Jesus' commands with our own versions of what obeying God means, then we could be surprised to find Jesus saying to us, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not do what I tell you?" Luke 6:46
The obedience is by no means what gets us into heaven. The obedience simply shows that we trust him enough to actually do what he says. And what he says is simple - John 15:12, John 15:17, 1 John 3:23, 1 John 3:16-18, 1 John 3:11"
While I agree that what we do, how we act, is a great indicator of our Walk with the Lord, who are we to say a person is not saved by their outward appearance or work? Yes, when we see fellow brethren stumbling, we should come along side them. 1Thes 5:14,15 "And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else." Interesting socalexile , I was going to ask you about this person's comment because I kinda got frustrated with it. It seems this person is saying that these are fake Christians who are not saved or will miss getting on the ark, then at the end clarifies that "obedience is by no means what gets us into heaven." This person is making a judgment on someone's walk. It seems to me there is a distinction between salvation, and the rewards (inheritances?) given at the Bema seat.. I myself need grace everyday. I struggle to live a sinless life, but I pray about it everyday, talk to and ask for forgiveness from the Lord. I know the Holy Spirit is at work in me, but I am sure at my church there are people who wonder about me. This last statement on the HS is important, I think. How does one really know the heart of a person? How do we know what the HS is really doing in that person's life? There are some that just do not go to church for example, and their fellowship is weak at best, but does that mean they are not Saved? What is the Gospel message? There is no baptism mentioned in it, yet I know that Baptism is a public statement of professing one's faith and belief in Jesus. Repentance IS though part of it. Metanoiae. As sinners we have to Change our mind. Turn from the worldly things, and follow Christ and His Gospel way. But can we, do we do it perfectly? Through who's eyes? Jesus or man? Perhaps a fellow believer who hasn't changed his mind on certain parts of the Word is where we raise an eyebrow over his belief system. All we can do is encourage one to seek the Scriptures for the truths. Typically I think the reason for mis-interpreting God's Word is from a "teacher" or leader who mis-guides them. Is salvation at stake for this person who was taught wrong by someone else? I am not talking about a wrong Gospel, something other than God's son Jesus Christ on the cross, died, buried, resurrected. I am talking about the muddied waters of all this work stuff added (or subtracted). For sure it seems like some of us are having to "clean up" the mess others have created in false teachings. In the end, those who take on pastoring/shepherding a flock have a bigger responsibility to answer if in error of the Word. Even so, the likes of a prosperity teacher, ie Joel O are like nails on a chalk board to me, yet if he truly believes in the correct Gospel, he will be saved. Don't ya think? Ironically I know of a person who was saved through televangelism years ago, and became a pastor and a good one here locally. Funny how the Holy Spirit works! This is a multi-part question, so I'll try to answer in a multi-part answer. James 2 is used by EVERY false gospel out-of-context. Preachers think they can play fast and loose with the context because (I think) they want active sheep who will grow their ministries (which benefits them personally). The problem is, James isn't talking about salvation there - he's talking about service, which is an entirely separate thing. To keep this reply short, I will refer to this essay. The problems with judging salvation by works is that you have to answer the question of, "what works can a saved man do that an unsaved man can't do?". There is also the issue of judging one's salvation by a standard that one doesn't have to meet in order to be saved in the first place. It's like judging a car not to be a car because it doesn't fly. Now we should encourage others, but the thing is that people confuse salvation and discipleship. They think everything Paul wrote was about salvation, when it wasn't. Only Romans and Galatians are dedicated to salvation, with some statements in Ephesians 1-3. The rest is about discipleship, which involved rewards at the Bema Seat. After all, 100% of his epistles are written to saved Christians in churches. On repentance, being a 'change of opinion' it then is a given when one comes to Christ. Remember though, not every use of the word involves eternal life. More often than not in the Bible, the term is used in the context of avoiding God's chastening or judgement on earth. |
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Post by socalexile on Sept 12, 2017 9:40:55 GMT -6
BTW baptism is part of believing the Gospel - that is, the baptism that Christ gives (Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16), which is not of water, but of the Spirit - and is entirely the work of God when one comes to faith. This is the guarantee of our redemption. BTW the word for "guarantee" in Ephesians 1:13-14 is the exact same word, transliterated from Hebrew to Greek, as is used in Genesis 38:17, 18, and 20 (see links), which is a picture of our redemption, and also of the dispensation of grace though the Gentiles. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 12, 2017 10:17:44 GMT -6
mike said: So the one I often hear questioned is homosexuality. So and so loves God and has accepted Jesus, yet is stuck in that lifestyle. Yes, Mike, This behavior, and those who swear constantly, and those who have addictions. These behaviors certainly are not becoming of a believer. I have some gay friends and I have pondered how to approach them about Jesus and eternal life through Him. It should be simple, right? Start with asking Jesus into your life because He is the only way to Heaven. Yet I know what it says in 1 Cor 6... 1Cor 6:9 onward: Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with mena 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 12“I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”b 17But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.c 18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. But look at verse 11: And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. When we ask the Lord Jesus into our life or encourage someone to do this, for eternal life, they must decided to Turn to Him (change their opinion of what the world says, believe what God says of Jesus and what Jesus means to us sinners). Only the Holy Spirit can mold you and change you and prepare your body for heaven? Does Paul say here that your salvation is at risk with sexual immorality? He for sure is saying you are dishonoring God, but is that lost salvation? I in no way want to be held accountable for saying: "Believe in Jesus and sin away to your heart's content..." Yet isn't it sharing the Gospel first? then, disciple one who has made the decision? Isn't the Holy Spirit our helper in this? The HS convicts a person, not me telling them they are sinning. Ugh. Help me out brothers and sisters. I am trying to make a simple statement on how to share correctly the Gospel to an unsaved person, and I still am making it too complicated...Paul says in here it is not beneficial to do anything you want (verse 12). I think this is where I get fearful of mentoring to someone the Gospel message beyond the Salvation message if they are still unsaved. It starts to bring works into the system. It is the Work of the Holy Spirit that changes that person, right? They have to have a convicted heart on their behavior., which only comes thru the Holy Spirit, right? All I can to is guide them to the Scriptures. But, did I tell them correctly "what it takes to get saved is" my worry? My worry is a result that I know He does not want us to remain in habitual sin, so therein lies the muddied works theology... A gay person could repent and call on/believe in the Lord/His Gospel to save him, then get killed in a car wreck still having not changed his mind on sexual immorality. Is he still unsaved? I would say he IS saved. I think we are talking about 2 things: Salvation and Personal Walk.
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Post by mike on Sept 12, 2017 10:18:41 GMT -6
As a append to my above here is one text commonly referred to "walk the straight and narrow"
1Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Context - carnal christians who were still practicing those things. Doesnt mean those who "fall" or even habitually "practice" are not saved. It is encouraging them to no longer do these things as they have been cleansed. But many preachers fall to the theme of "maybe youre not saved if youre still doing these things"
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Post by mike on Sept 12, 2017 10:34:44 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl thanks for the reply. iwas thinking similarly as you can see above ^^^ When I do speak with people I try to keep the focus on that person(s) and their questions that pertain to them only. If the person is not a homosexual then it is not pertinent to them specifically. they can pray and read for themselves afterwards. Hopefully that may help you make things less complicated. Unsaved have this notion that they have to stop sinning in order to be a christian. Its that they dont want to stop sinning. If we start with that (not saying you do) then the battle is a bit harder. Having them realize who Jesus is and the need to repent and believe on Him is the battle.
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