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Post by disciple4life on Sept 25, 2020 20:54:13 GMT -6
disciple4life , I was hesitant to reply to you because I dont want to argue, but my spirit is pulling me to do so (reply). D4L - **my response in this blue - so it's clear that i am responding. I don't take it that you are arguing, my brother. You and I and rt and others are simply trying to present the evidence and make the case for our position - I realize that written text is a poor way to do this, and much is lost, or mis-communicated in the process. ;-) You said: If the awakening blast, the resurrection of the dead, happens on a Yom Teruah and that day "for thousands of years" has been the day Kings have been coronated on, shouldnt we look to scripture to see a day when Christ himself is married and crowned King to be a possible Yom Teruah? Possible Yom Teruah?? I don't think it's what you mean, but it seems like you are implying that the date of Yom Teruah/ Feast of Trumpets is uncertain - or that we need to look for an alternate date??
While the origins of Rosh Hoshanah [literally head of the year] comes from the times when the Jews were in the Babylonian captivity - Yom Teruah [Feast of Trumpets was explicitly commanded by God and on the 1st day of the seventh month as one of the seven feasts of the Lord.
1. Christ begins to reign-- I don't find anything in this passage Revelation 11 or 19, where it states that Christ begins to reign. ?? One could argue from scripture that he began to reign when he ascended into heaven and was seated at the right hand of the father. 2. Bema seat -- I agree with you this is the [Judgement seat]. to clarify - it's a term for an elevated podium for speakers and judges in ancient Greece, and also the elevated place in synagogues where the Torah was read. It's a bit confusing - to me, at least because we don't find it in scripture. 3. Rewards to all in faith 4. Destroy those that destroy the earth (Day of atonement) - door is shut- I agree 100%, that Day of Atonement - Judgment is poured out - Door of heaven is shut. 1. Christ begins to reign (7th trumpet) 2. Marriage on same day (resurrection of the dead - Yom Teruah) Again, I looked at the entire chapter of Rev 19, and don't see anything here that says that Christ begins to reign. Nor do I see anything in this or the preceding or following chapters that says Christ begins to reign at the 7th trumpet. ?? The 7th trumpet is mentioned way back at Revel 11:15.
I want to be as clear as I possibly can. Venge said "2. Marriage on same day (resurrection of the dead - Yom Teruah)" Yes, marriage at Yom Teruah, based on 3 key things 2 from scripture, and 3rd - a confirmation from History/ Jewish culture.
1. Christ's rapture parable - Groom came with a shout, and Yom Teruah /Feast of Trumpets is Literally "Day of Shouting/ or Day of Blasting" and
2. Pauls words that the Lord himself will descend with a Shout.
3. AND this coupled with the fact that Jews for thousands of years view Yom Teruah as the wedding of the Messiah. **What I also see is the heading for this entire section - in Rev 19 - which is huge and overlooked by most. "The Marriage Supper of the Lamb" - the wedding is on one day, and then, according to Jewish wedding customs - the bride is lifted up and carried away to the wedding chamber for 7 days, and then they return - for the marriage feast or the marriage supper.
Revelation 19:9
9 Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are true words of God.”
I think this is huge when we consider that Christ's first miracle was a wedding, and he used multiple wedding idioms explicitly referring to his Second Advent [Rapture, and subsequent second coming] and the fact that the parable of the 5 bridesmaids is a direct and explicit rapture picture.
Paul explicitly and unmistakably says that the resurrection of the dead happens at the Last Trumpet. I get that some don't believe this is Yom Teruah, but it's not the 7th Trumpet - John's revelation wasn't even written for another 40 years and those are blown by angels, and not 'instant' in the twinkling of an eye.
When we ask ourselves the question - "What did the term Last Trumpet mean to all the hearers - 1st Century Jews?" The answer is clear.
There is no other feast with a long history of set number of blasts, and a special name for the Last Trumpet - Only Yom Teruah, which also has been understood for centuries as the wedding of the Messiah, and the Day of the Great Resurrection.
venge "As you had stated: most prominent themes is "Wedding of the Messiah" and also Coronation of the King. For thousands of years, kings have been coronated on Yom Teruah.
I agree 100%. But that is not located in Rev 4 or 5. It is found in Ch 11 at the 7th Trumpet and Ch. 19 after Babylon is destroyed. Because scripture plainly tells us he reigns at that time and he is married at that time, we can say with a surety, based upon your own study, that is Yom Teruah.
D4l - Nothing anywhere in Chapter 11 or Chapter 19, about Yom Teruah. Further, nothing in these passages that say "the Last Trumpet". The phrase the Last Trumpet is not even used in Revelation, - it is only used by Paul, where he says it happens at the resurrection of the dead - which he also says is the Harpazo/ when 'we who are alive and remain will be caught up (Harpazo - same exact word as used in Philip - caught up quickly into the sky). Hope it at least clarifies the points I'm trying to make.  Please show me where or how from scripture that you see anything that says Yom Teruah, or connects it to Tom Teruah in Rev 11 or 19. Yom Teruah was set and commanded by God as an appointed time - on 1st day of 7th month - 1st of Tishri.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 25, 2020 22:36:50 GMT -6
disciple4life , You have a lot there in your post, but again I would stress that you are interpreting based on Jewish tradition not what God's word actually says. I believe that this Jewish man who believes in Christ is doing the same. I don't question your salvation or his. I question the method of interpretation. ***D4L - using this dark blue- to clarify my response to specific points. Thanks, rt. I never thought or felt you were questioning my salvation, my dear sister. I use scripture - what God's word actually says, and only use other sources that confirm or shed light in terms of context or culture, because as Gentiles- we miss a lot of things that Jewish readers 2000 years ago would have seen and understood totally differently than we do now. Yes it is true that the shofar is blown today on Yom Teruah as has been the practice for many millenia. But is that what was commanded by God? Yes, actually it was, and I agree with you that we should look at what scripture actually says as our first and highest source.
The passage below, from Numbers 10:1-10 was a totally different context and were specific instructions dealing with call to battle, and call to assembly, and call to move camp. No silver trumpets were ever commanded or even listed as being used with the Feasts.
Interestingly, in v 19, in the Hebrew - the voice of God, which was very loud and shook the camp, is described as a Shofar- a totally distinct and separate word from silver trumpets. biblehub.com/interlinear/exodus/19-19
Exodus 19:16, 19
16. On the third day, when morning came, there was thunder and lightning. A thick cloud was upon the mountain, and a very loud blast of the ram’s horn went out, so that all the people in the camp trembled.
17. Then Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.
Yom Teruah was enacted as a "reminder by blowing" : The words "of trumpets" do not appear in the original manuscript, however since one of the purposes of the silver trumpets was that the nation of Israel would be remebered before God and thus be saved from their enemies. I would suggest that this indicates that the silver trumpets were intended to be used on Yom Teruak as well. Though it is possible and I would say even likely that the people joined in with shouts and rams horns as well. So whether it is a rams horn or silver trumpet doesn't really change anything. The purpose of the day and the reason for sounding the trumpets is to "remind" . It was not to celebrate or bring in the new year. I do agree In the original context, it was not to bring in the new year- nor is it the reason for the trumpets now. Rosh Hoshanah- [Literally translated as Head of the Year] came about under the Jews' Babylonian captivity, because the Babylonians had a new year that fell at the time of 1st of Tishri- so I'll leave that as another topic.
I think the point that it was commanded by God as a Shofar, -- AND the fact that God's voice was described as a Shofar is very significant on 2 levels, and also reinforce Yom Teruah as the "Appointed Time, when Christ fulfills the Feast of Trumpets by the rapture - when he comes with a shout- at the Last Trumpet- Day of Shouting.
1. Shofars are connected with awakening blast - and also repentence. Even the name for the specific blasts Tekiah and Shevarim before the Last Trumpet - comes from words that describing wailing and mourning.
2. Just as the Feasts are a picture of something that happened, or something from life, such as the death angel passing over, or the Day of Atonement when the priests went into the holy place, and the scapegoat was sent into the dessert - they point to Christ, and are fulfilled in Christ. So we have a picture before Christ that points to the rapture, and another totally separate picture - after Christ - which also points to the rapture. Two separate pictures for the Last Trumpet, both pointing to the same event. Hmmmm.  From before Christ up to the present - Jews understand that the two Ram's horns are pictures of something else. The Left Horn is known as the "First Trumpet", and is connected with the Giving of the Law at Mt Sinai. It's mind-numbing that this perfectly matches what Perry Stone and Dr Barry Awe and others teach about the First Trumpet and Last Trumpet, but they didn't make the Jewish connection to the Ram's Horns.
The Right Horn is known as the Last Trumpet, and is connected with the blast that Heralds the advent of the Messiah - [They missed him the first time- and for a time, their eyes are blinded.] This is confirmed by multiple Jewish and Christian sources. The idea that the reminder was about when the law was given, is a tradition. It isn't scriptural. In fact most Jews today believe the law was given around the feast of weeks or Shavuot as they call it. The giving of the law according to Jewish sages happened not on Yom Teruah but at what we call Pentecost. www.myjewishlearning.com/article/shavuot-history-rabbinic-development/ Agree 100 % my friend.  I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Scripture indicates that the nation of Israel was very lax when it came to following the law. The practice of the religious Jews, certainly in Jesus' day, had become more about tradition than about honoring the actual commandments of God. Jesus condemns them for this, and yet many today want to view prophecy through the lens of these traditions, including those messianic Jews. Also Jesus is identified as speaking with the voice of a trumpet in the Revelation, see the post above. Please understand, that I am in no way trying to disparage you, or others who see things as you do. I realize that I am in the minority here on this subject. It may in fact turn out that the Rapture could happen on a future Yom Teruah. This may happen so that the Lord can speak through it to the nation of Israel specifically. I do not know for certain. But when it comes to diciphering prophecy, I choose to look through the lens of God's word first and then see if other ideas line up, I just happen to see conflicts in doing so through the lens of Jewish tradition. I didn't feel for a moment that you were trying to disparage me. ;-) No worries at all. I feel the same. I'm not trying to disparage anyone.
I am just a bit puzzled. We both agree that we should first use God's word first and foremost and then see if other ideas line up/ confirm. But yet, you say Jesus is the First and Last Trumpet. Scripture says he is the alpha and omega - the beginning and the end. But nothing links or compares or describes Jesus as a Trumpet.
It's clear that when Jesus and John and Paul spoke, or wrote to Jewish disciples and Jewish believers in the early church, that they used phrases and idioms that they knew the Jewish believers would understand - "Thief in the night" - Jewish Idiom for the Captain of the temple Guard. "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" - Jewish wedding idiom. "No one Knows the Day or the Hour" -Jewish idiom for Feast of Trumpets, "I Go to prepare a place for you" - Jewish wedding idiom. The Last Trumpet was instantly understood and an unmistakable reference to the 100th blast of the Shofar at Feast of Trumpets. Alternating blasts that sound like weeping - Tekia and Shevarim - and then Tekia Gadola - the Last Trumpet.
I've given 3 writers from scripture, Paul, Christ and John, which all write of the Groom coming with a shout in the rapture parable, and Paul saying that the Lord himself will descend with a shout - and John saying the voice of God as a shout, and the fact that the word in Hebrew is Day of Shouting, and coupled with the fact that Jews view the day as the wedding of the Messiah - and the Day of the Great resurrection. Then, I combine these points with Paul's words that the Feasts are a shadow of things to come - [literally translated as rehearsal]. I don't disparage anyone who doesn't see this.
To me - these phrases are either meaningless or starkly different - "the Golden door, the Huddled Masses, the Green Lady, wretched refuse of your teeming shores - but only when you take them all collectively they are words from a poem that unmistakably is the Statue of Liberty. Your Tennessee Otter Brother. Disciple4life |
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Post by venge on Sept 26, 2020 8:08:55 GMT -6
disciple4life , You said: I agree on both accounts, but it is also said in 2 Tim 4:1; this is where we go line by line, here alittle there alittle. That places the resurrection of the dead and living at his appearing and his kingdom...which we find in Rev 11 when the Kingdoms of the world, which were not Christ, have now became Christ and he has reigned. That is why I posted Rev 19, why would the voices of many waters say: Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. If Christ has been reigning since he ascended, as you said as a possibility, why did they announce it there? That event must be important if the waters announce it "Alleluia". They basically say "Praise the Lord, he now reigns as King or exercises dominion over the world." Cognate: 936 basileúō (from 935 /basileús, "king") – to reign as king, i.e. exercise dominion (rule). See 932 (basileia). That implies he did not reign over the world before that announcement. Therefore, one could surmise that he has now begun to reign. The phrase "which shall not taste of death" is from 1 Cor 15:54-55 It refers to the resurrection of the dead linking it to the last trump. But Matthew shows that the event takes place when they see Christ coming (2 Tim 4:1 appearing) in his kingdom (2 Tim 4:1 as well) That is why I brought up Yom Teruah. The awakening blast per 2 Tim 4:1 and Matthew 16:27-28 happens when he reigns in his Kingdom. So, when does the world become Christ Kingdom when he reigns? EDIT:I also wanted to reply to this comment: If Rev 11:18 is not describing the judgment seat of Christ... what other judgment exists? These are dead in Christ before the millennial reign is over. Do you know of another? That, and the fact the reward comes after. What reward are followers of Christ promised besides immortality following a judgment of the dead? Also, I wanted to add this verse below. Christ sitting on the throne will not happen till he comes (2nd advent). That seems to match Rev 11 and 19 imho and it matches up with Matthew 16:27-28 I posted above. That he sits on his throne when he comes in his kingdom to reward his servants and that is when we say, death is swallowed up in victory.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 26, 2020 14:25:00 GMT -6
disciple4life , You said: I agree on both accounts, but it is also said in 2 Tim 4:1; this is where we go line by line, here alittle there alittle. I'm sorry. I was trying to articulate my point with clarity, but it's clear i wasn't clear. I am specifically talking about the phrase used by Paul. I mixed up the wording in the second half of the sentence -- it should be "The phrase the "The Last Trumpet" is not even used in Revelation, - It is only used by Paul - where he says that the resurrection of the dead happens at the Last Trumpet. "
He explicitly links the resurrection of the dead with the rapture [Harpazo] in the two most well-known rapture passages in the Bible. This passage - the passage of the Harpazo - most famous rapture proof text in the entire Bible
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds [This is the Greek word Harpazo/ Latin rapturo] to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Then, Paul unmistakably links / equates the instant resurrection of the dead and the rapture of the living Christians with this passage --
1 Corinthians 15:52
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."
There is almost universal agreement that these two passages are the same event - resurrection of dead Christians comes a second before the rapture. I think, from our conversations you agree with this. ?? amiright? venge said "I agree on both accounts, but it is also said in 2 Tim 4:1; this is where we go line by line, here a little, there a little." The passage above just gives a verse- no book or chapter, so i looked it up. I agree that the judgment is at his appearing - the Second coming, which also corresponds to what I've been saying re Day of Atonement, [Door of heaven is shut, and the sentence is made]
I looked up 2 Timothy 4:1 and don't see anything that mentions "the Last Trumpet" or anything about a trumpet. So I thought maybe you meant 1 Tim 4:1 by chance. Also, nothing in that passage about the Last Trumpet, and nothing at all about a trumpet.
- No text anywhere that even hints or implies that the phrase "The Last Trumpet", which had meaning to the audience, is referring to something that would not even be written or revealed to John 40 years later, and had not even been revealed to Paul at that time.
- Revelation and the 7th trumpet wasn't even written until about 40 years after Paul wrote I Corinthians.
- 7th Trumpet of Revelation is not even God's trumpet - they are blown by 7 angels, and are not instant events .
Someone can have the opinion that the Last trumpet was the one blown by Joshua at Jericho - Or that the 2 witnesses are Adam and Eve,- Parents of all people. But one can't support this opinion with sound hermeneutics. That places the resurrection of the dead and living at his appearing and his kingdom...which we find in Rev 11 when the Kingdoms of the world, which were not Christ, have now became Christ and he has reigned. That is why I posted Rev 19, why would the voices of many waters say: Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. If Christ has been reigning since he ascended, as you said as a possibility, why did they announce it there? That event must be important if the waters announce it "Alleluia". They basically say "Praise the Lord, he now reigns as King or exercises dominion over the world." - This is speculation and conjecture and opinion. Nothing in the text says he wasn't reigning before that, or that he just now starts to reign - it's just a testimony of the elders and angels praising God - He is worthy, and he is reigning. Cognate: 936 basileúō (from 935 /basileús, "king") – to reign as king, i.e. exercise dominion (rule). See 932 (basileia). That implies he did not reign over the world before that announcement. Therefore, one could surmise that he has now begun to reign. The phrase "which shall not taste of death" is from 1 Cor 15:54-55 It refers to the resurrection of the dead linking it to the last trump. But Matthew shows that the event takes place when they see Christ coming (2 Tim 4:1 appearing) in his kingdom (2 Tim 4:1 as well) That is why I brought up Yom Teruah. The awakening blast per 2 Tim 4:1 and Matthew 16:27-28 happens when he reigns in his Kingdom. So, when does the world become Christ Kingdom when he reigns? |
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Post by venge on Sept 26, 2020 14:32:15 GMT -6
disciple4life , Please look at the rest of the EDIT I posted in ref to your quote here: To continue, I will post the next thing you said, 2 Tim 4:1 specifically says the living and the dead What other time will he judge the living and the dead at his appearing then the last trump? Are you saying this judgment has no correlation with the last trump? Yes, Revelation was written much later...that is true. I am not saying otherwise so I am not sure what youre getting at. Paul still knew of O.T. history and he was caught up to the third heaven. Just because it was written later, doesnt mean he did not know the answer...obviously he did. The trumpets blown by angels were given their trumpets from God. I'd be guessing but I'd say based upon that, they were Trumpets of God. The only angels that stand in God's presence are Archangel prince types. (Michael, Gabriel etc) Notice what the verse says, in Revelation 8 Example: Luke 1:19 Or Michael Whose Trumpets are they then if they were in God's presence when they were given them? I should add again, it wasnt a normal angel that blew the 7th trumpet, but a mighty angel...Hmm EDIT: To add more, Michael is called an archangel here in Jude 1:9 And an arch angel blows the Trumpet in 1 Thess 4:16 So, I'd say yes they are Trumpets of God. They stood before him, they receive them there and then they use the Trumpets of God. The 7th and last trumpet is used by an Archangel which fits into 1 Thess 4:16
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 26, 2020 14:55:22 GMT -6
disciple4life , Please look at the rest of the EDIT I posted. 2 Tim 4:1 specifically says the living and the dead Agreed, but nothing in this text hints or implies anything about the "Last Trumpet'. What other time will he judge the living and the dead at his appearing then the last trump? Are you saying this judgment has no correlation with the last trump? Yes, and you haven't given any verse or source to support any connection. I agree that "he will judge the living and the dead at his appearing" because this what the text clearly says. However it doesn't say it's the Last Trumpet, nor does it even mention the Last Trumpet, nor does it even remotely have any connection to the Last Trumpet. [This would be what many understand - Jews as well as a growing number of Non-Jewish, Christian end-times teachers as Day of Atonement. You havent given anything so far that makes this connection - Judgement seat -which we agree on- with the Last Trumpet.
You also didn't give any explanation as to what the Jewish audience would have understood as the Last Trumpet - 40 years before Revelation was written.
I would never pretend to speak for you- but you seem to believe that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet, despite all the evidence and with no verse anywhere suggesting that Paul meant something that was not even revealed until 40 years later. Again - I don't disparage people for opinions that dogs are better than cats, or that 60's music is the greatest, but we can't use sound rules of Bible interpretations to support these kinds of opinions. |
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Post by venge on Sept 26, 2020 15:07:49 GMT -6
disciple4life , I added alot of EDIT above your last quote so please read it fully. We will continue. You said: I have given plenty of verses to support. I had said, Christ judges the living and the dead at his appearing and kingdom. That is linked by 2 Tim 4:1 and Matthew 16:27-28 and Matthew 25:31 I asked you, is there another time Christ comes to judge and reward other then the one we wait for? No he doesnt because this one involves the living and the dead...we who are alive and remain and those who died in Christ. The link is also 1 Cor 15:52-56 which also backs up Matthew 16:27-28 It links the last trump with the saying death is swallowed up in victory because we receive immortality. Christ sits on his throne (Matthew 25:31) when he comes with his angels in glory and when he assumes that throne, he rewards every man according to his works (Matthew 16:27-28) where we receive immortality when he appears and we know that immortality happens at the last Trump per 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52 and we are judged (2 Tim 4:1) I will get to that in good time =P But you need to be open for it. I dont sense that yet, no sense posting it if we argue.
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Post by rt on Sept 27, 2020 8:14:25 GMT -6
disciple4life , You said in response to my question: But is that what was commanded by God? You say that the shofar was what was commanded to be used on the feast of Trumpets, and then you site two passages, neither have anything at all to do with the establishment of Yom Turuah. These passages do not provide evidence that the shofar was intended as the trumpet to be used. You go on to say: You draw the conclusion that since the voice of God is described as sounding like a shofar that it must be a shofar in view on the feast of trumpets. By that same logic then I draw the following conclusion: That it is a trumpet that is in view on the feast of trumpets. The voice of Jesus is described by John as sounding like a trumpet (not a shofar). It is at the voice of Jesus that the dead are raised. You also say: How are shofars connected to the resurrection (awakening blast) and repentance? You show that they are connected through the Jewish traditions of Yom Teruah. I would completely agree that the feasts are a picture or as scripture says a shadow of things that have or will happen, all fulfilled in Christ. He HImself said He came to fulfill the law. I would suggest that He fulfilled the feast of trumpets already. As He (with the trumpet voice) stands before God as a reminder that we are His and that we are protected in Him. You see the feast being fulfilled in a different way than I. By the way the silver trumpets were used at every feast. Not just for moving the camp or for times of battle. They were used to "gather" the congregation to the Tabernacle. Aren't we "gathered together" to Christ?(2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:17) to enter into the heavenly Tabernacle at the rapture/ resurrection? The trumpets were sounded in the days of gladness, in the appointed feasts, on the first day of the month, over offerings as a reminder to God. (Numbers 10:10) I would contend that our ultimate day of gladness will be the rapture/ resurrection day. When we are gathered together by the voice of Jesus to "come up here" and we are rescued from our enemies. I also find it interesting that the term "ram's horn" was used to describe what was to be sounded on the day of atonement to announce a Jubilee year. Horn 7782 שֹׁופָר [showphar, shophar /sho·far/] n m. From 8231 in the original sense of incising; TWOT 2449c; GK 8795; 72 occurrences; AV translates as “trumpet” 68 times, and “cornet” four times. 1 horn, ram’s horn. Blowing 8643 תְּרוּעָה [târuwʿah /ter·oo·aw/] n f. From 7321; TWOT 2135b; GK 9558; 36 occurrences; AV translates as “shout” 11 times, “shouting” eight times, “alarm” six times, “sound” three times, “blowing” twice, “joy” twice, and translated miscellaneously four times. 1 alarm, signal, sound of tempest, shout, shout or blast of war or alarm or j oy. 1A alarm of war, war-cry, battle-cry. 1B blast (for march). 1C shout of joy (with religious impulse). 1D shout of joy (in general). When describing the feast of trumpets, there isn't a ram's horn specified. The only time the ram's horn is specifically called for is to sound on the day of Atonement in a Jubilee year. So only once every 50 years. If God required a ram's horn on Yom Teruah, he would have specified one, as He did to proclaim a Jubilee. Finally when you look at the passages that speak of the rapture and go to the Interliniary Greek New Testament:
The Interliniary Greek New Testament translates this verse as saying:
“In (an) instant, in (the) twinkle of (the) eye, in the last trump He shall be trumpeting for and the dead ones shall be being roused incorruptible”.
The Interliniary Greek New Testament translates this verse as saying:
“That Himself the Lord, in shout of command voice, and in trumpet of God shall be descending from heaven and the dead ones in Christ shall be rising first”. It is Jesus that shouts, with His voice like a trumpet, to gather the saints together. And yes, this could be fulfilled on the feast of trumpets, or on some other day. Just like Jesus fulfilled the day of Atonement on a day other than the one it actually fell on. I don't think any of us can actually say with any certainty when the rapture will happen. I personally (as previously noted) think the feast of the ingathering (tabernacles) is a better fit. But it could really happen at any time. The fulfillment of the feasts certainly are a sign for the Jews, and I believe ultimately there may be a fulfillment of them during the 70th week, on their actual days. But for the church who isn't bound to the Mosaic law, I am not so certain. The rapture is for the church, the body of Christ, largely made up of gentiles and yes many mesianic Jews as well. Jesus could gather us to Him on any day and it would still be a (second) fulfillment of the feast of trumpets and tabernacles for that matter.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 27, 2020 15:11:08 GMT -6
disciple4life , Hello rt.
The confusion was my mistake. Sometimes we try to be extra clear in our comments- to avoid misunderstanding, and I end up not reading your sentence correctly. 
What I meant - was to show the evidence from scripture for the shofar being used at Mt Sinai, and that the voice of God was described as a Shofar. When you re-read my response - it makes much more sense in the context of Mt Sinai. I totally see why that was confusing - please forgive me.
Aside from a few details on how we see Christ fulfilling the feasts- we are mostly seeing and saying the same thing. From my perspective, my sister, we agree on like 95%
- We agree that is was Shofars that were used at the giving of the law at Mt Sinai, and God's voice was also described in the same passage as a shofar. - Exodus 19.
- We also agree that it was a Shofar that was commanded by God to be used at Day of Atonement, on a Jubilee year.
- It was also very interesting that at the Battle of Jericho, God specifically commanded that the priests blow Shofars, not silver trumpets. Joshua 6:4
biblehub.com/interlinear/joshua/6-4.htm
We also know that the Shofar is used at Feast of Trumpets - specifically because of it's connection to repentence, and crying, and that for centuries the phrase "Last Trumpet" has been linked by Jews and Gentiles alike to the Heralding of the Messiah [First Advent for Jews, - Second Advent for Christians]
So as you see- i'm using scripture as my first and highest source- and also see the powerful picture of the Ram's Horn in the thicket which brought salvation - (to both Jews and Gentiles) and its obvious prophetic implications and connection to the voice of God/ Shout/ Trumpet at the rapture.
You draw the conclusion that since the voice of God is described as sounding like a shofar that it must be a shofar in view on the feast of trumpets. By that same logic then I draw the following conclusion: That it is a trumpet that is in view on the feast of trumpets. The voice of Jesus is described by John as sounding like a trumpet (not a shofar). It is at the voice of Jesus that the dead are raised. But for the sake of clarification - to others following along- the Hebrew is much more specific, and we can use a interlinear Hebrew Bible, or Strongs, and know the exact Hebrew word used in a passage, and then see how it is often translated into different English words - and sometimes the converse is true - different words in Hebrew and Greek are translated into a single English word.
So in the case of the trumpets at Yom Teruah - there are two scriptures where the feast was given - with instructions -- Leviticus 23:24 and Numbers 29:1. In both cases - the Hebrew word is Teruah -- Same Word as in Yom Teruah - which literally means "Blast or shout" - doesn't say either way - whether it was shofars [ram's horn] or silver trumpets.
The New Testament was written in Koine or Common Greek, - the everyday language of common fishermen and farmers, and there is only one Greek word used for trumpets. So for the passage in John you give above - one can't insist it was a shofar, and one can't say it wasn't.
All the passages in the New Testament that use "Trumpet" in English are the same Greek word or same root word, [Like Have, Has and Had] - but don't explicitly state whether it's a ram's horn or silver trumpet.
I think one of most important questions is - Do You agree that the phrase Paul used "The Last Trumpet" was NOT the same as the 7th trumpet in Revelation.? Amiright?
I never thought for a moment you were disparaging me- and I truly hope that you feel the same, that I never want to disparage anyone.
Disciple4Life |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 4, 2020 7:51:33 GMT -6
rt , Natalie , mike , andrew , bruce , sog , boraddict , @reepicheep , stormyknight , bruce , yardstick , bernie , inaweofhim , others, I've talked to Cappuccino Mike, and I'm honestly and seriously looking at/ considering other ways that the fall feasts might be fulfilled, as he and venge and others have said -- trying to imagine that things will certainly play out differently than we imagine" So this is just to get your mind going a bit in that direction. @ Keeping with the same concept of this thread - a rapture coinciding with the Fall Feasts, Feast of Trumpets/Yom Teruah, Day of Atonement/Yom Kippur and Feast of booths/Sukkot. Others use Feast of Tabernacles, but I don't like this name, [but the main thing is that people who are new and learning, can understand that Sukkot, is the hebrew word for Feast of Booths or Feast of Tabernacles ] and the concept comes from when the children of Israel wandered in the dessert, it's to be a reminder of the temporary shelters they lived in, and it forshadows God dwelling with us [in the 4th Temple - which Jesus builds] It was either rt or Natalie who mentioned something about a Feast of Booths/Sukkot rapture - can you post a link or article? These are just some examples of what i mean by Feasts being fulfilled outside the box of how we think. 1. The Fall feasts are all fulfilled in the right sequence in which they appear, but all a two week period, all in Sept-Oct. All in one literal month of Tishri. [In other words, no gap of the Tribulation in there. 2. The feasts will be fulfilled in some other order- like we skip FOT and Day of Atonement,?? 3. Generally, there is a correlation between those who think the feasts happen all at one time [same month] and those who see a Pre-wrath rapture- but not in every case.] They would say that they will all be fulfilled in order, just as we would expect, but they will all happen together at the end of the tribulation] 4. Another option is that despite all the huge parallels, and clues and passages that point to a rapture at Feast of Trumpets, these were all just a coincidence, and it happens at Day of Atonement. 5. Another option - theory held by some watchmen is that the feasts are fulfilled in the right order, but somehow, all the Jews and all the experts, and NASA and other Astronomical organizations are all mistaken, and the "calendars are one month off, - or some other time frame - but it's basically that the "real Feast of Trumpets, and real Day of Atonement is one month [or 2 months behind] 6. - something else - totally different theory - that i haven't thought of. [ For the sake of clarity and in keeping with the main thread topic , I'm not including the Spring Feasts notion here or not including the "Random, any-day, 4th-of-July, Halloween, Surprise rapture theory.]
Disciple4life
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Post by inaweofhim on Oct 4, 2020 10:52:12 GMT -6
rt , Natalie , mike , andrew , bruce , sog , boraddict , @reepicheep , stormyknight , bruce , yardstick , bernie , inaweofhim , others, I've talked to Cappuccino Mike, and I'm honestly and seriously looking at/ considering other ways that the fall feasts might be fulfilled, as he and venge and others have said -- trying to imagine that things will certainly play out differently than we imagine" So this is just to get your mind going a bit in that direction. @ Keeping with the same concept of this thread - a rapture coinciding with the Fall Feasts, Feast of Trumpets/Yom Teruah, Day of Atonement/Yom Kippur and Feast of booths/Sukkot. Others use Feast of Tabernacles, but I don't like this name, [but the main thing is that people who are new and learning, can understand that Sukkot, is the hebrew word for Feast of Booths or Feast of Tabernacles ] and the concept comes from when the children of Israel wandered in the dessert, it's to be a reminder of the temporary shelters they lived in, and it forshadows God dwelling with us [in the 4th Temple - which Jesus builds] It was either rt or Natalie who mentioned something about a Feast of Booths/Sukkot rapture - can you post a link or article? These are just some examples of what i mean by Feasts being fulfilled outside the box of how we think. 1. The Fall feasts are all fulfilled in the right sequence in which they appear, but all a two week period, all in Sept-Oct. All in one literal month of Tishri. [In other words, no gap of the Tribulation in there. 2. The feasts will be fulfilled in some other order- like we skip FOT and Day of Atonement,?? 3. Generally, there is a correlation between those who think the feasts happen all at one time [same month] and those who see a Pre-wrath rapture- but not in every case.] They would say that they will all be fulfilled in order, just as we would expect, but they will all happen together at the end of the tribulation] 4. Another option is that despite all the huge parallels, and clues and passages that point to a rapture at Feast of Trumpets, these were all just a coincidence, and it happens at Day of Atonement. 5. Another option - theory held by some watchmen is that the feasts are fulfilled in the right order, but somehow, all the Jews and all the experts, and NASA and other Astronomical organizations are all mistaken, and the "calendars are one month off, - or some other time frame - but it's basically that the "real Feast of Trumpets, and real Day of Atonement is one month [or 2 months behind] 6. - something else - totally different theory - that i haven't thought of. [ For the sake of clarity and in keeping with the main thread topic , I'm not including the Spring Feasts notion here or not including the "Random, any-day, 4th-of-July, Halloween, Surprise rapture theory.]
Disciple4life Pertaining to number 6 (totally different theory) I think I may have seen someone else post that the Fall (Winter) Feasts might be fulfilled in reverse order? At any rate, I thought of something this morning in my QT reading (or the LORD through HIS Holy Spirit directed me): I was praying through PS 74 when verse 17 caught my attention: Thou Thyself has established all the boundaries of the earth; (that passage there is a discussion for another thread!); Thou hast made summer and winter. And I realized God in HIS calendar only recognizes two seasons. At least that is what it seems according to HIS Word. So if He chooses to rapture us on the last day of Sukkot, the great day of Sukkot (Jn 6:39, 40; Jn 7:37,38) (thank you to Stan Foster? for helping me see this possible connection!) it will be in winter on a Sabbath! And the unbelieving Jews may immediately think of Matt 24:20 - if our flight is indeed at that time! What a paradox that would be! |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 4, 2020 11:07:21 GMT -6
disciple4life , #6 There is a double fulfillment of one of the days. For example, Sukkot being the Wedding Feast after Christ returns at FOT, the Millennial Kingdom beginning on the 8th day assembly day - the Rapture having happened on the 8th day 7 years before. Random thoughts - If the Rapture is to mean something to the Jews, then it's not going to happen on some random day or some miscalculated feast day. I think it's a bit proud to suggest that the Jews have been calculating their feast days wrongly and "we" have it all figured out. ("We" being whoever it is that say the calendars are off, not "we" at Unsealed) If it's not to mean something, then it doesn't matter what day it's on. For, me, I am looking at the last day of Sukkot. Rahab was rescued from Jericho on the 7th day after the 7 trumpet blasts. ( inaweofhim, I hadn't read your post yet! ) Or could the rapture happen on the 8th day? There was to be an assembling of the people on the 8th day. I think the 8th day represents eternity - after 7 "years" of human history there is one eternal day. At the rapture, the church will be forever with Him. Like I said, random thoughts.
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Post by sog on Oct 4, 2020 20:27:18 GMT -6
disciple4life, thought I’d throw this video from Barry Scarbrough into the mix. In it he talks about 2020 possibly being an Intercalated year or what the Hebrews called a pregnant year. Wow. Starts talking about it around 7 minute mark. Intercalation is adding an additional month (a 2nd Adar) to the year because of the need to compensate for following a lunar cycle. So actual FoT could be yet to come? Listen and discern for yourselves.
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 5, 2020 11:00:55 GMT -6
Hello sog , Thank you my brother. I appreciate the insight. I suppose it's not impossible - Please don't think I'm challenging you, or even disagreeing. It would be very cool if this is the case. I really love the part about how in Hebrew, it is known as a Pregnant year - this fits perfectly with all the descriptions by Christ and forshadows of the Second advent/ Rapture, and other end times events as being like a woman in labor. Wow !! Dude. This is really great example of what i meant by "being willing to consider - things looking different than how or what we have always believed. -- It's not at all a 'boring/stale/cliche understanding. It's also hard because just like the Jubilee years - I don't think anyone can prove without a reasonable doubt either way that any given year is a Jubilee year, or that it's not. Certainly, just pulling a few dates from Israel's history that have been major events historically and prophetically, just is not enough to make a strong case that because 1917 was important and 50 years later, 1967 was also, that means that 2017 was a Jubilee year. It's a lot like the 80 year notion - people have latched on to that, and I think the Fig Tree prophecy is unquestionably referring to Israel - but there is not a hint anywhere in scripture that suggests that 80 years is the absolute upper limit, - just as we can see many examples of people who are mid and upper 80's and still healthy. **It doesn't mean that 80 years is some magic number and it can't be any more than that . It's the upper average for a lifespan, but the verse says this generation will not pass away untill all these things are fulfilled - not when this generation reaches 80 . ;-) My reservations/ doubts are that Jews all over the world have already proclaimed 1st of Tishri - and it seems to me very basic and very logical that those who use a lunar calendar every day, every week, and every year, would know when the 2nd Adar should be added. The other thing that keeps coming to mind, is that there is a known Metonic cycle. Basically it means you add the 2nd Leap Month, [2nd Adar] - 7 times in 19 years, but it's not just random, when there was a lot of rain. This Metonic cycle is hard to understand, since 7 does not go into 19 evenly. So for anyone who is Musical, or a visual learner, it's illustrated on the keys of a piano. Start at middle C, and count all the keys, black and white - Including "middle C" this takes you up to the second F# above middle C. The Leap month corresponds to the black keys - or counting whole steps - C to D, D to E, F to G, G to A, A to B etc. in a systematic way. Never two years back to back. But just like with our leap year, when Feb has 29 days, if you add an extra leap month, randomly, it also throws everything off. I suspect that there has to be a dozen or more sites that keep track of this sort of thing. I mean, their holidays depend on it, so it's not like they just say, "Well, we'll just add another month if the roads are muddy in March." I know Barry mentioned that there are scores of Abib count sites, but i'm talking specifically about the Metonic cycle. My two cents, Disciple4life |
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Please show me where or how from scripture that you see anything that says Yom Teruah, or connects it to Tom Teruah in Rev 11 or 19. Yom Teruah was set and commanded by God as an appointed time - on 1st day of 7th month - 1st of Tishri. 
I didn't mean to imply otherwise. 
