Who Will Be Raptured?

Spiritwalker,


Yes, indeed.  Faith is necessary.  Faith ALONE.  That is the standard under the New Covenant.  Jesus died for our sins, which is the message of the Gospel.  Paul calls this "first importance" in Christian doctrine in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.  If you believe that works are also necessary then you have denied the finished work of Christ (Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:28, 4:2, 4:5-6), have denied the Gospel (1 Cor. 15:2), have spurned grace (Galatians 2:21, Romans 11:5-6), and have trampled the blood of Christ underfoot (Hebrews 10:26-29).  To reject the Gospel is to reject the only means of salvation - Christ and His atoning sacrifice.  

Works have their place - we were created to do good works, after all.  However, we have all fallen short - including you.  Jesus was perfect on our behalf and Paul goes to great lengths in His epistles, especially Romans and Galatians, to show that it is through faith alone, and in turn the imputed righteousness of Christ (His merits become ours through faith), that anyone can be saved.  This is Christianity 101.  Certainly some denominations like the Catholic and Orthodox churches reject this basic doctrine, but they do it to their own folly.  They say that you can fall from grace through sin, yet the only time the Bible defines how someone falls from grace, it is by trying to be justified before God by the very things you and these other churches teach:

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." - Galatians 5:4

That is a scary thing if you think about it, to strive your whole life to be perfect for the wrong reason, because you thought it justified you in God's sight, and in the end to discover you had fallen short.  Far short.  Spiritwalker, the truth is you can't live up to your own standard.  I'm certain of it.  I've never met a Christian who can - at least not in regards to overcoming the sinful nature before death.  The solution is Christ and the Gospel.  We can be positionally perfect in this life through faith, but we cannot be materially perfect (i.e. perfectly sanctified) until our glorification in Heaven.  And yes, there are Scriptures to back this up, such as Philippians 3:18-21, 1 Corinthians 15:50-57, Romans 7:14-25, 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:19, Hebrews 9:28, etc.

Even very stringent repentance preachers like Paul Washer would agree with me here.  Spiritwalker, what you are teaching is basically repackaged Pelagianism, which was an early Church heresy.

I don't want to belittle the rest of the Scriptures you've cited as each of them is important if put in their proper place, but you have to have the right foundation (Christ - 1 Cor. 3:11-15).  I've written on this extensively and I would encourage you to first study the Scriptures more diligently.  When I started I was concerned about James 2 and several verses in 1 John, which seemed to contradict the Gospel of Grace, so what I did was list out every verse in the NT that seemed to indicate salvation was by works or faith + works.  Then I listed out every verse that seemed to indicate salvation was by faith alone.  The results are overwhelming:  88 verses for faith alone, 24 verses for works or faith + works.  Those 24 verses have their place, but since the Bible overwhelmingly teaches Sola Fide, those 24 verses have to be understood in light of the clearly revealed truth of Sola Fide.  You can read about how the book of James reconciles with Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, and other epistles here.

For further reading:

What is repentance?

What is the Gospel?



You come across double-minded here.  You spend a large amount of time explaining how the standard is perfection in this life and how Whatif is teaching un-biblically even though she is simply stating the obvious, yet here you say the standard is striving towards sinlessness and perfection.  In any case, I and Whatif and I'm sure others here strive towards perfection and sinlessness, but we do not do it for salvation because by works no one can be saved.  We do it out of grateful love because Christ has saved us through His blood.

Again, it is a scary thing to spend your life believing that you knew Christ and your works were proof, yet all the while you were trying to establish your own righteousness, never submitting to the imputed righteousness revealed through Christ and the Gospel (Romans 10).  Honestly, these are the self-professed Christians I am most worried about.  They cite many Scriptures and sound so very holy, yet in the end they never believed the Gospel.  They never trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of all their sins.  They never understood God's righteousness (Romans 3, Romans 10, etc).  They do not in actuality spur on Believers to love and good deeds, but instead to fear and self-righteousness.  A scary thing indeed.  Again, it's Pelagianism.



Spiritwalker, I want to kindly encourage you to avoid statements like these.  We only have three rules on this board and this goes against rule #3.  It doesn't help or encourage anyone, and in fact it has a tendency to reveal someone's own lack of spiritual humility.

Lastly, the Gospel/Sola Fide is a core doctrine of biblical/Christian faith - again, Paul calls it "first importance". Please heed rule #1 on the board: unsealed.boards.net/thread/2/new-members-read-first

A practical guide for faith and sin -
Anger is one of our biggest places where we have problems. Anger is not a primary emotion. It's a secondary emotion meaning that we experienced something else that triggered the anger. For me, it's feeling helpless that leads to anger. Whenever I start to feel angry I try to look at what it is that's making me feel helpless, usually I see the connection. Then I remember that the Holy Spirit dwells in my heart and He is not helpless. This all happens in a fraction of a second. Essentially it is an exercise in faith and the anger falls away like an old garment.

Yes, all people are sinners. There are none righteous, not even one. Only through Jesus Christ our Lord are we accounted worthy. I am not a proponent of the partial rapture theory. If that was true then no one would be raptured. It says clearly in the rapture passages that "ALL" believers , dead and alive in Christ will be caught up, 1 corinthians 15: 51-52. The people who believe in a partial rapture believe that one has to get ready. In my opinion, how can the dead in Christ get ready. They will also all be raptured along with the living believers.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



A gift is grace and it can not be earned. If it was earned it is your rightful wage. However, this gift of grace can be rejected or opened...the choice is yours.

"We" overcome because of his deeds not our deeds. Furthermore our discipline, determination, dedication, devotion and desire can not save our soul, spirit nor our bodies. We worship him and his work alone.

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



We are "perfect" in the finished work of Christ.
I John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I John 3:19-24 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.



Rev.12:10-11 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

My accuser is cast down is cast down! Hallelujah!

These are great scripture verses! There are some prophecy teachers that do believe that one has to be an overcomer in order to be raptured. I disagree with them. We are only considered an overcomer once we trust and have saving faith in our Lord. I also believe that saving faith determines who is caught up at the rapture. There are many professing ' Christians ' who will be left behind by surprise. Only God knows each individual heart and the Holy spirit can leads them to a saving faith. It is our responsibility to lead as the spirit of God leads us.

Yes, some true belivers will be caught up off guard who were not expecting that to happen . Either they don't believe in a rapture they believed that it would occur mid or post trib. Whether or not one believes in the rapture or not or a different timing is not the way God determines who will be raptured, but a saving faith in our Lord is what determines it.

However, those who are looking for His coming will receive a special crown."henceforth there is laid up a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteousness judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing " 2 tim 4:8

Good observations, truthseeker.

Let me just give my initial assessment, which is tentative:

I suspect, but could be wrong, that these two overcomings are not of exactly the same type. IE, for the saints, this is spiritual overcoming that they do, and for the beast, it is a physical overcoming--he defeats the saints in physical warfare and struggle, ie, captures them and kills them, etc.

It clearly says that it was given to him (by whom? God?) to make war with the saints and overcome them. I don't believe a true saint, like myself or yourself, can be spiritually and ultimately overcome. But we can be overcome temporarily in spiritual struggles, and overcome in physical warfare.

Any other thoughts?