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Post by mike on Aug 18, 2017 13:27:58 GMT -6
KJS...I completely assumed you read the Olivet thread and/or the link...I was (finally) agreeing with you. The chiastic structure of Jesus response the disciples was not evident to me and that explanation helped me tremendously. I do thank you for detailing the explanation though.
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Post by sarah777 on Aug 24, 2017 8:01:17 GMT -6
It's so great to have had help and I don't know how I missed this last time. Thank you to all who helped me figure this out. My kids always admonish me to do this like I had them while they were growing up so maybe they were right. Sorry for breaking any of the rules it wasn't my intent you can be sure. I have read through most of what's here and agree with Gary and Truth Seeker. IF we can't trust the Lord to keep us until He comes and that His blood isn't sufficient as far as cleansing us from all sin and unrighteousness then his death was in vain. None of us can ever say we are without sin while at the same time, like Paul says, it's not a license for us to sin because grace abounds. Surely we should never say we can keep ourselves from falling while at the same time we are told that if we don't stay close to Jesus we will fall because we are in need of a Shepherd to get us all the way up that straight narrow path to higher ground. My husband and I spent several years as missionaries to the Navajo people. We spent a day helping a friend bring home her sheep from the High Land and learned so many lessons through experiencing what we'd only "known" in our heads until we were there watching and up close with the process of shepherding. Jesus spoke to common people like fishermen, shepherds and carpenters. He used every day examples those of us who actually are involved in real life situations can relate to and also, as I see most here have learned He used illustrations the Jews were familiar with from Feast Days, their culture and traditions to teach about His Kingdom yet to come in all of its fullness and about the meaning of the Sacrificial Lamb of God. My understanding is more according to the tradition of the Jews and the feasts than it is a "gentile" understanding because since I have known Jesus I learned from Jews and from the preaching and teaching I'd received while at CBN. My husband has never learned from that perspective so he is now just learning though I had over the years tried to share with him from my own perspective. He couldn't get it. Now he is starting to pay attention to the teaching as he's hearing it from Jonathan Cahn and Mark Biltz and others and is himself starting to research online what they are teaching and saying as he is carefully checking it all out with scripture. My husband is very well educated and has been reading the scriptures for all of these years praying for understanding from the Lord and not his own so I thank God as He is helping bring us into a unity of doctrine. We have chosen to love each other and focus on preaching the simple gospel of Jesus Christ from the time we both came to know Jesus ourselves through different doctrinal views of those who'd led us to faith. I don't know how else to say this. We've been part of mission efforts over the years through various ministries where the Lord sent us to work together with other true believers. Not all held the same doctrinal views we do but we know the Lord Himself has taught us as servants we don't "strive" over doctrine we discuss for the sake of coming to "unity" with HIS MIND not our own or any other human's opinion or human "authority" Over 50 years of walking with the Lord I have learned to look at everything from the position of another brother or sister and as long as it's not "heresy" or serious "error" to agree without being disagreeable. He hasn't called us to fight among ourselves or to create a further divide within His Body. That's grievous to HIM. We all need to humble ourselves and as I have learned from every true elder I've met who really knows Jesus the wisest among us serve each other in love and never to be exalted over the younger.
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Post by mike on Aug 24, 2017 9:16:01 GMT -6
thank you Sarah. That helps clarify the shoutbox from this morning...good first/second post
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Post by sarah777 on Aug 24, 2017 9:24:01 GMT -6
Still trying this because I know I probably didn't do it right last time.. I am though trying my best. In response to the very harsh criticism of David Wilkerson may I humbly suggest instead of judging him according to your own point of view or understanding this might be truly a prophetic word he was getting from God but HIS MISTAKE was human error. Not the prophecy itself or what he was seeing as many others have been and still are of what is going to take place but that he had humanly through his own erroneous judgment and human opinion or understanding attempted to figure out a date and associate it with the WORD of GOD HIMSELF.
Can any of us truly say we haven't been guilty of this ourselves? I believe as I got to know David up close and personally he was a humble man who was agonizing over the condition of souls in this country .. the nation and people he loved and he was crying out for anyone with an ear to hear to repent. I do though believe it's important for us to always if we say "thus says the Lord" make sure it's HIM who is doing the talking and not us misunderstanding or misinterpreting His Word.
and yes It's HIS Character and HIS WORD that is at stake so HE takes it very seriously when we speak for HIM.
I've walked with Jesus for a long time now (and I don't say it lightly. I don't worship a god after my own human imagination) and I have sat at the feet of true believers who know Him in Spirit and in Truth and take very seriously every word they spoke whether preaching, teaching or "interpreting" the Language of God Himself to humans here below. I can assure you I've seen prophesies fail. I have also wrongly judged others or been chastened by the Lord for daring to judge one of HIS servants instead of praying for him or her. Like Paul said prophesy and tongues and every other gift will pass away but FAITH HOPE and LOVE are FOREVER.
Who was it who asked recently about Jonah and why it was God was so willing to use him even though he'd totally disobeyed the Lord's orders? There are just so many examples of this all through the Old Testament. Even the New when you think about how Paul and Peter disagreed and came head to head over the issue of whether or not gentiles needed to become "Jews" after the traditions and culture of his own people.
If you read Len Ravenhill's books like "Why Revival Tarries" you will see him as a very critical and judgmental kiind of guy who some did and still will judge as "self righteous" or "hell fire preacher" because of his passion when he was in the pulpit or as he wrote his books full of warning to this nation of a judgment yet to fall on us. Like many people view God who only read His words and never get to know Him up close and personally to actually know HIM as our Father and our Friend.
He was another Jonah type for sure and not easy listening for those who love ears tickled or looking for prophets who say what we want to hear. Len and Martha were among the gentlest, most loving, kind and patient people I've met in my life. Unlike Keith Green who was all of what anyone would have judged Len as being from his work .. Keith was really a proud and arrogant young man. Still? He was also my "little brother" so I prayed for him up until his last very bad choice that cost him and a whole family (including his own two children) their lives. I was a young hippie who had been delivered out of all the sins of my youth much more like Mary Magdalene than Mary the Mother of Jesus. Yet when I heard Len preach I spent most of the time weeping through each message because my heart burned within me to KNOW GOD like he knew GOD.
Do I believe he is with Jesus? or that Dave Wilkerson is? YES I DO.. as imperfect as the men were in tihis world I believe their souls are with the Lord. As our friend and fellow musician Barry McGuire said to us after we got the news the same weekend he came to do a concert in Navajo Land where we'd been sent to serve .. "When I see him in Heaven I'm going to punch him in the nose. Then I will hug him." To me that's the example Jesus calls us to as "brothers and sisters" in Christ not lording over each other but humbly serving from our hearts.
It's how we all felt about a young brother who was a bit too big for his britches and very much better at pointing out the failures and short comings of other believers around him while missing his own. Isn't that the way most of us humans behave? Until we are truly humbled by the ONE Who brings down the proud and raises up the meek and the weak? If you want to buy gold tried by fire? Make sure you aren't falling for "fool's gold" instead. Aren't we all grateful for that mercy we ourselves want to be shown at the times we fail to measure up to our own "holier than thou" standards? I believe when the Lord spoke the parable of the one who comes spitting on his breast begging for mercy as a sinner compared to the pharisee who thanks God he isn't like other men it still applies to us today if not more than it had when He spoke it to His followers 2000 years ago. The closer you get to the Lord in truth the more humble and pure of heart you will become and more forgiving not more judgmental.
Read the letters the Lord Himself sent to the End Time Church (as well as to those in John's time) to hear what HE is saying to each of us and every church called by HIS Name in this world. Are we part of the persecuted, poverty stricken Smyrna or the humble generous and pure of heart Philadelphia? or are we one of the five who are rebuked and soundly warned by our Lord Himself .. I believe from my heart Dave Wilkerson was so broken before the Lord and humbled himself while being chastised by HIM to purge and purify his heart he was just doing his best to spare whoever would disobey and harden our hearts in that final day of warning whenever it may come and whoever among us find ourselves here on earth in that hour. Am I wrong or right? Am I self righteous or am I simply a sinner saved by GRACE who has walked a long way now through valleys of shadow and death while holding on to a lamp believing there is an end to the darkness and soon, very soon, the SON of RIGHTEOUSNESS will rise with HEALING IN HIS WINGS over us all who believe from our hearts and confess with our mouths JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.. it's not my role to judge any of you who falter, stumble or fail to measure up to some kind of standard I myself haven't. With that being said I will quote from the Beloved John who called us to love one another like JESUS has loved us so much He chose to die in our place so we won't be judged with the unbelievers and faithless who chose to defy and deny Him instead. My heart breaks thinking a single one I've loved will not be there when HE comes for US who believe. I pray we might all look just like JESUS wants His Holy Bride to look in that Day of His appearing. As a Church laboring together to heal the sick, visit the prisoners, set captives free, shine HIS LIGHT to those who are in darkness, repairing the breach that exists within HIS OWN BODY to divide us as Jew from gentile believers. I pray for us all every day from my heart and that Jesus will come quickly to take us HOME
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Post by sarah777 on Aug 24, 2017 11:16:47 GMT -6
I see that supposedly my post went through but obviously it's been deleted or I just can't see any evidence that it has. To Gary I guess I definitely triggered a response and this will be a good discussion if we can actually have one but I will have to ask you to please lay down your sword for a minute because I'm a sister in Christ not an enemy of the gospel and definitely not an enemy of Jesus our Lord Who I love as much as you do. I'm sorry to have even brought up the name of David Wilkerson because it's evident you never knew him as a man so you could judge him based on his character and not on the words that you believe weren't true or from the Lord. Again, I will admonish you only to read the story of Jonah and you choose to believe whatever you want about our good brother Dave. He was a mere mortal like you are and you might end up on that other side of pointed fingers if things don't pan out as you are right now believing they will according to your own understanding of time and signs and all of that you are yourself right now most talking about here. My time at CBN when I was a babe in arms when it came to having just been born again myself was a blessed one. You might say I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth when it comes to having been raised up by preachers and prophets who had proven themselves approved by God and man alike. How do we do that, right? I don't want to argue and surely did not come to this site with that thought in mind. I had no idea really who you are at all and when my husband wanted a name to check to see if you are for real or not my answer was "so what? Do we have to know a name or a man's reputation to discern whether or not he is speaking the truth?" You don't know me either. You didn't know Dave Wilkerson so you are basing your judgment only on what he said that you found not to pass a test that's going through the filter of your own human understanding of what God chose to do in HIS OWN TIME. What I'm speaking is out of love not to in any way cause you to feel humiliated so if my openly correcting you is wrong again please forgive me. You feel very free to correct me and David Wilkerson so how do we resolve this? Peacefully? Lovingly as we're called to by Jesus as members of the same HOLY HOUSE? I will encourage you to take time to listen from your heart to what actually happened back in 1999 when there were so many of us who rose up to answer a CALL from GOD through many of his true servants to PRAY as faithfully and fervently from our hearts as we did .. from our faces crying out for mercy on our children and our children's children. WE did so in response to that call from David Wilkerson who had warned us and entreated us to REPENT from our own wrong ways. Our selfishness and pride and arrogance and unbelief. I might humbly suggest to you that if we had not then responded to the true prophet of GOD in our own time you may not even be here to talk about it. My humble opinion. If it doesn't measure up to a standard of "conduct" or "religiously correct speech" on this site then it's best you just cut me off now. I won't feel offended. For me? It was my own test as to how real YOU are as a brother in Christ. LOVE conquers ALL .. against such there is NO LAW and I can smile and laugh from my heart having lived as long as I have in this world knowing the difference between who belongs to JESUS and who does not. Let me assure you, my friend, David Wikerson was a real brother and friend of JESUS. A true servant of God in our time however he might appear outwardly to those who can't believe God Himself would actually choose to show mercy instead of judgment to such a wicked generation and nation as this one where we now find ourselves. The constant cry of my heart from the time I met Him was "come quickly LORD JESUS" .. here I am 50 years later. He chose to show your parents mercy or maybe you so who am I to complain against the very Merciful Lord Who chose to save ME instead of to destroy the whole world when I would have perished in unbelief. I can't tell you how this all works for sure. Any more than you can tell me. I only humbly ask you might cease from judging a true servant of the Lord to spare yourself the same measure . I say this out of pure love as a true sister and friend. God bless you and your house covered as I pray HE will me and mine. Which brings me to Joshua Aaron. Have you heard him? His worship? His call to us all "As for ME and MY HOUSE" we will serve the LORD .. I will serve Him from my heart until He comes or I leave here NO MAN or angel or demon will ever separate me from the LOVE of MY FIRST and ONLY FOREVER LOVE.. Looking up for HIM to come quickly !!
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Post by socalexile on Aug 25, 2017 3:52:33 GMT -6
You don't know me either. You didn't know Dave Wilkerson so you are basing your judgment only on what he said that you found not to pass a test that's going through the filter of your own human understanding of what God chose to do in HIS OWN TIME. Sarah, I have to weigh in on this because it's what the Lord has put me here to do in speaking out for the clarity of the Gospel. David Wilkerson was a fiery orator who really charged people up. The problem is that one's skill at working an audience does not equate to their foundation in Biblical truth. The Apostle Paul admitted to being a terrible orator (2 Corinthians 10:10) and Moses claimed to be a poor speaker (Exodus 4:10). The core problem wasn't the prophecies of Wilkerson, it's the fact that he taught that one's dedication to the Lord determined their eternal destiny - this is nothing more than mixing works and grace. Here is an analysis of one of Wilkerson's sermons given on May 10, 2004. This isn't the only time he did this; he squarely taught Lordship Salvation, which is the belief that one must do several things to maintain or prove salvation. In other words, if you don't do good works, you aren't saved. This is what we call "backloading" the gospel, and making it a "loan" or bi-lateral contract. The real Gospel is that we are saved because Christ's work is put on our account with God by grace (no merit of our own), attained through faith (trusting) in the finished work of Jesus Christ in his death burial and resurrection. Our ability to do good works afterwards is not a matter of our eternal destiny, but of our rewards and losses at the Bema Seat of Christ. David Wilkerson instead taught another gospel based on fear and works in order to attain grace, which denies the biblical definition found in Romans 11:6. This is what the Gospel really is, and is not, from a calm, controlled and yet clear preacher that does not use fear as a means of persuasion:
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bella
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Post by bella on Aug 31, 2017 16:01:17 GMT -6
I am widowed with a young son, and have just taken it on faith that my son would be raptured as well. I have desperately tried to get him to understand, but I just don't think he really does yet. I can't imagine being at peace with my young son, and my dog left unattended to face the coming nightmare. God just has to be more merciful than that.
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Post by whatif on Aug 31, 2017 16:39:38 GMT -6
The Lord is good, bella, so take courage! He knows how you love your son, as well as how you love your dog, and I know that when we see Him face to face He will give us assurances that will give us profound peace with all that is in His plan. He will not disappoint us!
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 31, 2017 23:18:30 GMT -6
How old is your son, Bella?
My 4-year-old daughter is at that point in life where she is old enough to understand about Jesus and sin to some degree but I think she is not old enough to be truly responsible before God. For diligence, I constantly tell her that Jesus loves her, and that He died on the cross for her sins. I ask her to pray and thank Him that He died for us, and she does. I teach her as we go. Sometimes this is all we can do. Be diligent along these lines, and keep holding your son before the Lord, and holding the Lord before your son.
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Post by mike on Sept 1, 2017 6:30:34 GMT -6
Same here Jim...Mine is almost 12. She "gets" it but maybe not quite to the full accountability yet. I digress...She believes God created everything and says "how could nothing create everything?". I teach her what I can when I can. I explained He is coming soon, she got a little nervous and said "will i still go to school?" I said "we will learn but not go to school". She said "can we go shopping" I said "He will provide everything we need". So it's hard for a child/kid to grasp fully. We dont even grasp it fully
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2017 8:51:13 GMT -6
Bella,
My heart aches when I hear things like what you posted. So I want to encourage you and bring you peace. There are many things that are not spelled out clearly in scripture and the church has often decided how to fill in those blanks. Many times, those blanks are filled in incorrectly.
Here is my encouragement: You know God. I hope you are reading what I am meaning. Just for a moment, turn off the religion, turn off what you think the bible says, turn off the pastors and teachers.
Now, in this moment. See God. See his Son, the jubilee from before time, dying on the cross. Now see him saying, "suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the kingdom of heaven." Now think of him searching for every lost lamb until he finds them all. Now, from his place on the cross, see him smile at you. And know him.
This is a man - this is a God on whom you can put the full weight of your anxieties. However much you treasure your son - He treasures him more. Fully rest in the His love. He will wrap his wings around your son. Know this. Know him.
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bella
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Post by bella on Sept 1, 2017 15:44:06 GMT -6
Thanks for the encouraging words. My son will be 6 on Sept 22. He has always gone to a Christian school, and to church. We do devotions and he prays each night. Once when I was going through a severe period of spiritual harassment, my son had an interesting experience. He was 4 at the time and playing the piano. He came running into the kitchen where I was, and said he heard something. When I asked him what it was, he said he heard singing, and he heard a horn sound, like his toy horn (a trumpet). I believe it may have been angels, and if so, then I know deep down that I have nothing to worry about. But the unknown is unnerving. I know I just need to trust God.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2017 16:09:40 GMT -6
I don't think we can't begin to know the love he has for our children. But if anyone could understand, it would be a mother. So I appreciate your concern.
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Post by whatif on Sept 1, 2017 16:19:42 GMT -6
Thanks for the encouraging words. My son will be 6 on Sept 22. That sounds like a perfect day for a birthday, bella! Tell him happy birthday from all of us here!
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 2, 2017 0:30:56 GMT -6
My second son turns 6 years old today, 9/2. Maybe they can play together in Heaven!' If you lived closer, we could have a party together now. My little six-year-old is this guy right here:
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