|
|
Post by bruce on Sept 26, 2017 10:31:06 GMT -6
I don't understand the logic of a DoA Rapture. Wouldn't that skip over FoT? What am I missing? Evenso, the way I see it, the feasts are a template. The idea that they all have to be fulfilled in a certain order is our interpretation of how it will play out. The Bible doesn't ever say that directly. That said, many teach, and I am inclined to agree, that the remaining feasts will indeed be fulfilled in order after the 7 year tribulation by Jesus when he returns to earth. So where does that leave the rapture? If the rapture were to happen on DoA, that doesn't mean it is necessarily the final fulfillment of that date. It could be an intermediary fulfillment. I tend to be of the opinion that these feast days can have multiple fulfillments. Jesus can still appear in the sky on Feast of Trumpets, judge the world on Feast of Atonement, and inaugurate the Millennial Kingdom on Feast of Tabernacles, all in the year of his return even if the rapture happens this year on DoA. In some ways it actually seems to fit. DoA is a type of judgment, and the rapture is a type of judgment as well. At the rapture, the human race is judged as to who is worthy to enter heaven (those who have accepted Jesus) and those who must remain behind during the tribulation (everyone else). In heaven there is a judgment of works for the saved, the Bema Seat. Judgments fit nicely with DoA. 7 years later, possibly on DoA, Jesus judges those who were left behind to determine who is now worthy to enter the Millennial Kingdom (those who accepted Jesus after the rapture). So bottom line, I think it can fit, and I don't think we need to worry about the rapture being a final feast fulfillment that interrupts the order they are supposed to be fulfilled in. |
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Sept 26, 2017 11:29:10 GMT -6
I don't understand the logic of a DoA Rapture. Wouldn't that skip over FoT? What am I missing? Evenso, the way I see it, the feasts are a template. The idea that they all have to be fulfilled in a certain order is our interpretation of how it will play out. The Bible doesn't ever say that directly. That said, many teach, and I am inclined to agree, that the remaining feasts will indeed be fulfilled in order after the 7 year tribulation by Jesus when he returns to earth. So where does that leave the rapture? If the rapture were to happen on DoA, that doesn't mean it is necessarily the final fulfillment of that date. It could be an intermediary fulfillment. I tend to be of the opinion that these feast days can have multiple fulfillments. Jesus can still appear in the sky on Feast of Trumpets, judge the world on Feast of Atonement, and inaugurate the Millennial Kingdom on Feast of Tabernacles, all in the year of his return even if the rapture happens this year on DoA. In some ways it actually seems to fit. DoA is a type of judgment, and the rapture is a type of judgment as well. At the rapture, the human race is judged as to who is worthy to enter heaven (those who have accepted Jesus) and those who must remain behind during the tribulation (everyone else). In heaven there is a judgment of works for the saved, the Bema Seat. Judgments fit nicely with DoA. 7 years later, possibly on DoA, Jesus judges those who were left behind to determine who is now worthy to enter the Millennial Kingdom (those who accepted Jesus after the rapture). So bottom line, I think it can fit, and I don't think we need to worry about the rapture being a final feast fulfillment that interrupts the order they are supposed to be fulfilled in. Nicely said.
Something to add:
Hypothetically speaking, the feasts are for the jews, not the gentiles church. So it makes more sense from a Matthew 24 standpoint, that the last three feasts are to be fulfilled at the second coming. Rev 12:1 being fulfilled on Yom Teruah is huge, but the feasts themselves are still for the jews. Therefore, it makes no difference if the rapture is on the DoA or not. it could be the day before. It could be the day after.
The gentiles have the signs in the heavens, in lieu of the feasts (so to speak); and heretofore we have had the doctrine of imminence, as well as 2000 years for our 'times' to be completed. It makes an intuitive sense that God would have given us signs in the heavens to alert us to a trigger for the rapture - even if we didnt know what they meant.
I believe its absolutely incredible that he gave is the breadcrumbs from the jews table, in the sense that the Rapture signal might be triggered by the feast pattern. What matters is the signal given, that many who are very spiritually gifted picked up on: 9/23 = Rev 12:1. The rapture is no longer imminent. Its here!
|
|
|
|
Post by evenso on Sept 26, 2017 13:35:04 GMT -6
I think I agree with you yardstick. I think that the Revelation Sign was a *sign* pointing to something that we can't identify yet. The more I think about this, the more inclined I am to believe the Rapture doesn't have to be on a feast day and in fact probably won't be simply because the Rapture is a catching up of the Church. Aside from provoking jealousy from the Jews, it has nothing to do with them as a people (obviously there are many Jews who have accepted Messiah and are part of the Church now)
|
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Sept 27, 2017 8:27:26 GMT -6
I think I agree with you yardstick. I think that the Revelation Sign was a *sign* pointing to something that we can't identify yet. The more I think about this, the more inclined I am to believe the Rapture doesn't have to be on a feast day and in fact probably won't be simply because the Rapture is a catching up of the Church. Aside from provoking jealousy from the Jews, it has nothing to do with them as a people (obviously there are many Jews who have accepted Messiah and are part of the Church now) It just occurred to me that as much as having a 'gentile' rapture/resurection on a feast day would stick in the Jews' craw; having one on a non-feastday could be even more provocative. |
|
|
|
Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 27, 2017 8:31:07 GMT -6
I think I agree with you yardstick. I think that the Revelation Sign was a *sign* pointing to something that we can't identify yet. The more I think about this, the more inclined I am to believe the Rapture doesn't have to be on a feast day and in fact probably won't be simply because the Rapture is a catching up of the Church. Aside from provoking jealousy from the Jews, it has nothing to do with them as a people (obviously there are many Jews who have accepted Messiah and are part of the Church now) It just occurred to me that as much as having a 'gentile' rapture/resurection on a feast day would stick in the Jews' craw; having one on a non-feastday could be even more provocative. But then would they know it was Yehova who took us? |
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Sept 27, 2017 8:41:06 GMT -6
It just occurred to me that as much as having a 'gentile' rapture/resurection on a feast day would stick in the Jews' craw; having one on a non-feastday could be even more provocative. But then would they know it was Yehova who took us? Wouldnt they know that anyway (that is why they would be provoked)? That is who they purport to serve? |
|
|
|
Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 27, 2017 9:06:49 GMT -6
But then would they know it was Yehova who took us? Wouldnt they know that anyway (that is why they would be provoked)? That is who they purport to serve? So when we say "The Jews will be provoked to jealousy" do we really just mean those Jews who are currently observing Judaism? I'm not an expert on observant Jewish culture, so forgive me if I'm wrong here about some things. I just go off of what I've read. The majority of ethnic Jews are secular or practicing another religion. Not many are "observant." I know there are many different groups of "observant Jews." There are nominal Jews who still celebrate the Feasts, Sabbaths and other traditions/holidays but that's about as far as it goes (many of these may be included in the "secular" category). There are orthodox, ultra orthodox, karaite, Kabbalist and probably many other sects I don't know about. Do they all understand what the feasts are for? Do they all believe that God created the earth and universe for humankind on the earth, and therefore, there are no such thing as aliens in outer space that could explain a sudden disappearance of Christians? Or some other "more reasonable" explanation other than Jehovah took the people who were worshipping a "false" messiah? I do not deny that on whatever day the rapture occurs, it is divinely appointed and intended to provoke the Jews to jealousy. It will fulfill its mission. So I'm not questioning that. However, as an exercise in speculation of a particular date, I was asking/suggesting that if the rapture does NOT occur on a day important to the Jews might they explain it away through other means? |
|
|
|
Post by nana on Sept 27, 2017 9:42:08 GMT -6
I counted the signs shown in the heavens the past few years:
Tetrads on Feast days=4x
Bethlehem star=2x
American Eclipse=1
Rev12 sign=1
Adds to 8 different signs, meaning, I don't know.
|
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Sept 27, 2017 10:50:46 GMT -6
Wouldnt they know that anyway (that is why they would be provoked)? That is who they purport to serve? So when we say "The Jews will be provoked to jealousy" do we really just mean those Jews who are currently observing Judaism? I'm not an expert on observant Jewish culture, so forgive me if I'm wrong here about some things. I just go off of what I've read. The majority of ethnic Jews are secular or practicing another religion. Not many are "observant." I know there are many different groups of "observant Jews." There are nominal Jews who still celebrate the Feasts, Sabbaths and other traditions/holidays but that's about as far as it goes (many of these may be included in the "secular" category). There are orthodox, ultra orthodox, karaite, Kabbalist and probably many other sects I don't know about. Do they all understand what the feasts are for? Do they all believe that God created the earth and universe for humankind on the earth, and therefore, there are no such thing as aliens in outer space that could explain a sudden disappearance of Christians? Or some other "more reasonable" explanation other than Jehovah took the people who were worshipping a "false" messiah? I do not deny that on whatever day the rapture occurs, it is divinely appointed and intended to provoke the Jews to jealousy. It will fulfill its mission. So I'm not questioning that. However, as an exercise in speculation of a particular date, I was asking/suggesting that if the rapture does NOT occur on a day important to the Jews might they explain it away through other means? I would counter the bolded question with another question:
Do they (the ones observing anything) understand what their jewishness is for? Or maybe put another way: Do they have pride in their 'set apart'-ness as jews/jewishness (whether or not they celebrate/observe any tradition/holiday)? If so, I could definitely see how they would be provoked to jealousy.
As to the bolded clause:
I honestly do not know. All I can do is hypothesize.
|
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Sept 27, 2017 11:57:25 GMT -6
One of the biggest reasons to think Jesus may invoke the Rapture on a feast day is for the provoking of the Jews to jealousy. Otherwise, I don't think it particularly matters much.
Alternatively, I do believe in the multiple fulfilment of the feast days. If He takes us up and out on a feast day, that's well and good, and it does NOT have to imply that this was the primary fulfilment of that feast. The feasts are every year, and things do indeed happen more than once--ie--important things happen on them in multiple years.
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 27, 2017 12:48:37 GMT -6
My $0.02 My former sister-in-law and husband were Lubavitch (sp?), which is very similar to Hasidic (sp?) only in their terms "more observant". By no means am I an expert but I do have some insight. The extreme Jews typically only follow the Talmud, so their Jewishness is derived from that. In fact most of those whom I've interaction with had little knowledge of the OT at all. I can recall them regularly saying things in either Hebrew or maybe Yiddish "send Moshiach now!" (to which I would usually agree and generate a laugh. the laugh was at me not with though  ) I do not have the time to look into the Talmud at the moment, however one thing of note is that the Sanhedrin clearly had a differing opinion of the resurrection. I believe the Pharasees acknowledge it but Saducees do not. Matt 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him...Luke 20:27 Then came to [him] certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked himI found this article to shine a little light www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-resurrection-of-the-dead/So would it provoke them...Likely create quite the debate wouldnt it!? On a feast day perhaps all the more |
|
)