Post by henrym on Oct 1, 2017 8:08:44 GMT -6
This board could use some repentance about predestination.
What kind of watchman of God are you if you flat out deny important part of God's character, to the point of accepting vile stand towards it? Some of the recent postings against predestination on this board, which nobody rebuked except me, are disgusting.
Predestination is Biblical doctine, clearly revealed to us by God, in order for us to better understand both that part of His character and our reality. And I'm talking about predestination that's largely in line with how calvinists read it, to make it easer here, although the doctrine itself is from the Bible, of course, not from any man.
But since this board doesn't like predestination and mentions about it are brushed off, attacked and swept under the rug, it came to the point where one member, socale..., started publicly turning Bible verses on it's head by nullifying basic rules of grammar so that the word of God can accommodate him, and not the other way around.
And that seems to be fine with this board. Because nobody reacted.
We can debate interpretation, ok, but I'm sorry, nullifying basic grammar and negating what God's word plainly says, to fit the meaning of God's word into personal worldview, and to be so brazen do it publicly, that's activity that's satanic in nature.
Those who have eyes to see can see that Ephesians 1:4 - "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..." - says that God has chosen us to be in Christ and that God has done that choosing before the foundation of the world. God has chosen us before the world was created.
Not only is that obvious from english translation of both that sentence and the whole passage, that's also what people who know Koine Greek agree the sentence says. It's rather easy sentence (original Greek sentence) to understand both grammatically and in meaning. There are no grey zones. The sentence regarding the phrase "before the foundation of the world" reads, grammatically and literally, that we are chosen before foundation of the world and there's no other reading of it. Phrase "before the foundation of the world" is second prepositional phrase which modifies the object of the sentence, which is "us". First prepositional phrase is "in Him", which also modifies "us". The sentence effectively reads in meaning as this: "He chose us in Him and He chose us before the foundation of the world..." (Just to be clear, additionaly, "before" means before in context of time - it's the word "pro" used about 50 times in New Testament and almost always used as before in context time, including when the phrase "before the foundation of the earth" is used about Jesus, to point out that He was existing before the world was created.)
Detailed explanation about this can be found in various Koine Greek resources online, through consultations with Koine Greek scholars or in reference books, for example The Basics of New Testament Syntax: An Intermediate Greek Grammar by Daniel Wallace.
Anyway, what Unsealed board is presenting to the public, and to God, through aforementioned member whom nobody rebuked, is that this sentence actually doesn't read that God chose us before the foundation of the world but that the phrase "before the foundation of the world" is a reference to Christ who was existing before the foundation of the world.
Lord surely existed before the world was created, but this particular sentence doesn't talk about that. The phrase in this sentence is used regarding us who God chose before He created the world. And the sentence in original Koine Greek reads like it, and only like it.
Well, from somewhere comes a snake and whispers to the ear: "Oh no, God did not choose you before the foundation of the world, you are not that special to God." Just as the snake went to others and said: "Oh no, God did not make you according to His image, you are not that special, you are created by chance, from monkeys." Or to Eve: "Oh no, you surely won't die."
To deny rules of grammar in order to negate what God says shows the level of disrespect towards God and His word that's quite disgusting. How high the level of disrespect should be to be able to do something like that? And how high does one who does it put himself above God's word? Is he aware of it at all? Or is he so oblivious? Will he repent? What about all who see such post and are blasé about it?
At maximum one can debate whether it's personal or corporate choosing, although evidence massively points that we are personally chosen for salvation. But to say that sentence doesn't at all says that we are chosen, when it clearly says we are, is vile towards God's word. Because the sentence clearly says what it says.
And that's just a sample of the nature of the vile attack against predestination that originated from Unsealed board. By the way, here's the sample of that bold faced lie trying to present itself as some scholarly reasoning, like a wolf in bad sheep clothing:
I could expose each point of the attack on predestination, in detail, including the character of the member socal... which seems to be in line with the very nature of the attack, and it would be quite extensive, but that's not the issue here.
The issue is that nobody on this board, except me who posted a handful of posts altogether, reacted to that. It looks like it's ok to handle God's word however you like, as if it's napkin in your pocket, as long as you attack predestination.
Also, in addition to what denial of this Biblical doctine means and what consequences it brings to the saved person, there might be even more serious problem about it. Because if someone clings so much on "their part" of the salvation - "making the right decision" - to the point of despising and even hating the idea that it's not about their decision at all, did they really put 100% trust in Christ for salvation or do they count their "right choice" as a must and important part of it?
Gospel says "Believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and rose the third day and you will be saved". But if you strongly hold onto the idea that you personally made the right choice to believe, do you believe the Gospel or do you believe what is essentially a false gospel? A gospel that's changed ever so slightly to not be considered the actual Gospel in God's eyes.
Because Gospel doesn't say "Make the right choice and believe..." It simply says "Believe..." Jesus talks about child-like faith. It is not child-like faith to fervently deny the notion that it's the Father who made the choice to save you and then gave you the faith so you can have means to be saved. I would say, for those who are not sure about predestination, that it's better to not think about where belief comes from than to cling to the "personal choice" aspect of it, in effect making "the choice" big part of the salvation. Salvation is not about "your choice".
Now I don't think that Christians who don't generally understand predestination, or don't think much about it, are in a problem for it. What I'm talking here are specific cases where a person is so triggered by the predestination that he or she attacks it at mere mention (like here was the case), despises it and even hates it. I think there's good probability that it's a dangerous ground to walk on. I guess somewhere in that area could be a cut off point for salvation. Can you really hate the notion that God chose you, maybe because you cling on the need to make that choice yourself or you hate the idea that God is in control of your destiny, and still be saved?
As God's creation is complex, some with fervent hate towards predestination are probably saved and as saved Christians take consequences for it only at Bema seat, as far as we know, with their salvation intact. But again, I think it's a dangerous ground to walk on.
I don't know what is the level of denial towards predestination of any of the board members here, including the member socal..., who might just be lead astray on this particular doctrine for some reason (and I've got the vibe that he's still in high school or college based on the succession of his posts I've read, if that means anything). But regardless, there is something off about this board when there's general unison denial of predestination to the point that allows vile stands towards it, with people being rather nonchalant about such attacks. There's something off to me anyway so I'm stepping back. Maybe this comment will be of use to someone, though...
P.S. Although I mention one specific member, this post is about general consensus about predestination on this board and the consequences of it, so I'm writing it publicly.
What kind of watchman of God are you if you flat out deny important part of God's character, to the point of accepting vile stand towards it? Some of the recent postings against predestination on this board, which nobody rebuked except me, are disgusting.
Predestination is Biblical doctine, clearly revealed to us by God, in order for us to better understand both that part of His character and our reality. And I'm talking about predestination that's largely in line with how calvinists read it, to make it easer here, although the doctrine itself is from the Bible, of course, not from any man.
But since this board doesn't like predestination and mentions about it are brushed off, attacked and swept under the rug, it came to the point where one member, socale..., started publicly turning Bible verses on it's head by nullifying basic rules of grammar so that the word of God can accommodate him, and not the other way around.
And that seems to be fine with this board. Because nobody reacted.
We can debate interpretation, ok, but I'm sorry, nullifying basic grammar and negating what God's word plainly says, to fit the meaning of God's word into personal worldview, and to be so brazen do it publicly, that's activity that's satanic in nature.
Those who have eyes to see can see that Ephesians 1:4 - "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..." - says that God has chosen us to be in Christ and that God has done that choosing before the foundation of the world. God has chosen us before the world was created.
Not only is that obvious from english translation of both that sentence and the whole passage, that's also what people who know Koine Greek agree the sentence says. It's rather easy sentence (original Greek sentence) to understand both grammatically and in meaning. There are no grey zones. The sentence regarding the phrase "before the foundation of the world" reads, grammatically and literally, that we are chosen before foundation of the world and there's no other reading of it. Phrase "before the foundation of the world" is second prepositional phrase which modifies the object of the sentence, which is "us". First prepositional phrase is "in Him", which also modifies "us". The sentence effectively reads in meaning as this: "He chose us in Him and He chose us before the foundation of the world..." (Just to be clear, additionaly, "before" means before in context of time - it's the word "pro" used about 50 times in New Testament and almost always used as before in context time, including when the phrase "before the foundation of the earth" is used about Jesus, to point out that He was existing before the world was created.)
Detailed explanation about this can be found in various Koine Greek resources online, through consultations with Koine Greek scholars or in reference books, for example The Basics of New Testament Syntax: An Intermediate Greek Grammar by Daniel Wallace.
Anyway, what Unsealed board is presenting to the public, and to God, through aforementioned member whom nobody rebuked, is that this sentence actually doesn't read that God chose us before the foundation of the world but that the phrase "before the foundation of the world" is a reference to Christ who was existing before the foundation of the world.
Lord surely existed before the world was created, but this particular sentence doesn't talk about that. The phrase in this sentence is used regarding us who God chose before He created the world. And the sentence in original Koine Greek reads like it, and only like it.
Well, from somewhere comes a snake and whispers to the ear: "Oh no, God did not choose you before the foundation of the world, you are not that special to God." Just as the snake went to others and said: "Oh no, God did not make you according to His image, you are not that special, you are created by chance, from monkeys." Or to Eve: "Oh no, you surely won't die."
To deny rules of grammar in order to negate what God says shows the level of disrespect towards God and His word that's quite disgusting. How high the level of disrespect should be to be able to do something like that? And how high does one who does it put himself above God's word? Is he aware of it at all? Or is he so oblivious? Will he repent? What about all who see such post and are blasé about it?
At maximum one can debate whether it's personal or corporate choosing, although evidence massively points that we are personally chosen for salvation. But to say that sentence doesn't at all says that we are chosen, when it clearly says we are, is vile towards God's word. Because the sentence clearly says what it says.
And that's just a sample of the nature of the vile attack against predestination that originated from Unsealed board. By the way, here's the sample of that bold faced lie trying to present itself as some scholarly reasoning, like a wolf in bad sheep clothing:
I could expose each point of the attack on predestination, in detail, including the character of the member socal... which seems to be in line with the very nature of the attack, and it would be quite extensive, but that's not the issue here.
The issue is that nobody on this board, except me who posted a handful of posts altogether, reacted to that. It looks like it's ok to handle God's word however you like, as if it's napkin in your pocket, as long as you attack predestination.
Also, in addition to what denial of this Biblical doctine means and what consequences it brings to the saved person, there might be even more serious problem about it. Because if someone clings so much on "their part" of the salvation - "making the right decision" - to the point of despising and even hating the idea that it's not about their decision at all, did they really put 100% trust in Christ for salvation or do they count their "right choice" as a must and important part of it?
Gospel says "Believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and rose the third day and you will be saved". But if you strongly hold onto the idea that you personally made the right choice to believe, do you believe the Gospel or do you believe what is essentially a false gospel? A gospel that's changed ever so slightly to not be considered the actual Gospel in God's eyes.
Because Gospel doesn't say "Make the right choice and believe..." It simply says "Believe..." Jesus talks about child-like faith. It is not child-like faith to fervently deny the notion that it's the Father who made the choice to save you and then gave you the faith so you can have means to be saved. I would say, for those who are not sure about predestination, that it's better to not think about where belief comes from than to cling to the "personal choice" aspect of it, in effect making "the choice" big part of the salvation. Salvation is not about "your choice".
Now I don't think that Christians who don't generally understand predestination, or don't think much about it, are in a problem for it. What I'm talking here are specific cases where a person is so triggered by the predestination that he or she attacks it at mere mention (like here was the case), despises it and even hates it. I think there's good probability that it's a dangerous ground to walk on. I guess somewhere in that area could be a cut off point for salvation. Can you really hate the notion that God chose you, maybe because you cling on the need to make that choice yourself or you hate the idea that God is in control of your destiny, and still be saved?
As God's creation is complex, some with fervent hate towards predestination are probably saved and as saved Christians take consequences for it only at Bema seat, as far as we know, with their salvation intact. But again, I think it's a dangerous ground to walk on.
I don't know what is the level of denial towards predestination of any of the board members here, including the member socal..., who might just be lead astray on this particular doctrine for some reason (and I've got the vibe that he's still in high school or college based on the succession of his posts I've read, if that means anything). But regardless, there is something off about this board when there's general unison denial of predestination to the point that allows vile stands towards it, with people being rather nonchalant about such attacks. There's something off to me anyway so I'm stepping back. Maybe this comment will be of use to someone, though...
P.S. Although I mention one specific member, this post is about general consensus about predestination on this board and the consequences of it, so I'm writing it publicly.