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Post by rt on Apr 28, 2017 9:16:06 GMT -6
Hi everyone, so I was encouraged to share my ideas concerning a revised pretrib rapture view. But let me first start by saying that I do not believe I have a corner on knowledge when it comes to the prophetic timeline. I am just seeking understanding just like everyone else here. I fully understand that some of what I propose is subjective and speculative. I could have it all wrong. You can be the judge, and I am open to correction.
My journey into study started back in 2006. It's a long story, but through a series of events the Lord led me to study prophecy, being led by a sense of urgency and a desire to sort out the timing of events. I was saved 40 years ago, primarily because of teaching going on at the time concerning end times. I had always followed the traditional pretrib model. But as I began to study I found some inconsistencies that I had a difficult time reconciling. For a short time I was beginning to think that mid trib was a better view, but that too had problems. After thousands of hours of study, and debate at other sites, I ended up writing a full commentary on the book of revelation. Needless to say the Holy Spirit did a major work of revival in me, which has been one of the most awesome experiences in my life, hands down! So that in a nutshell is how I came to a revised version of a pretrib rapture timeline.
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Post by rt on Apr 28, 2017 9:56:33 GMT -6
So let me begin first by just laying out the way I see the timeline then I will show through scripture why I believe this to be true:
Seals 1-4- have already been opened- the four horses.
Seal 5- represents the resurrection of the dead in Christ (seal 5 and 6 happen in very close succession and are imminent)
Seal 6- represents the rapture of the church, the start of the sealing of the 144,000
Seal 7-silence in heaven for "about a half hour"-represents the start of the 70th week and the first 3.5 years, the two witnesses begin their ministry,
*false prophet and antichrist enter onto the prophetic world stage, begin to establish new mark of beast system.
Trumpet 1- 1/3 of earth/trees burned up, all grass burned (hail and fire mixed with blood thrown to earth)
Trumpet 2- 1/3 of sea turned to blood, 1/3 sea creatures killed, 1/3 ships destroyed (great burning mountain falls to earth)
Trumpet 3- 1/3 fresh waters poisoned, many die. (great burning star falls to earth)
Trumpet 4- 1/3 sun/moon/stars struck, 1/3 day and night darkened
(these trumpets I believe will sound also very close together, and would come just before the midpoint of the 70th week, also the sealing of the 144,000 will be completed before these trumpeters sound)
Trumpet 5- the first woe- bottomless pit opened, stinging locusts torment men for five months
Trumpet 6- the second woe- four angels released to kill 1/3 of mankind with fire ( I believe that those who are killed may be the tribulation martyrs)
*The seven thunders- this IMO represents the end of God's work among the gentiles and the start of His plan to redeem Israel
Trumpet 7- the third woe- The devil thrown down to earth, The Antichrist kills the two witnesses, commits the abomination of desolation, and unleashes his wrath toward the children of the "woman"
Bowl 1- malignant sores on those who bear the mark of the beast
Bowl 2- all water of the sea turned to blood, every living thing in it dies.
Bowl 3- all fresh water becomes like blood
Bowl 4- suns heat intensified to scorch men
Bowl 5- kingdom of the "beast" darkened with a darkness that causes pain
Bowl 6- Euphrates river dried up to make way for kings from the east ( Battle of Armageddon )
Bowl 7- "it is done" Babylon destroyed, huge hailstones, greatest earthquake...etc..
Return of Christ
That is it. I will add explanation as time permits me.
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Post by Gary on Apr 28, 2017 10:37:08 GMT -6
Thank you for sharing, rt. Who do you identify as Mystery Babylon? It's a question I continue to try to sort out myself.
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Post by BrazenLaver on Apr 28, 2017 14:06:21 GMT -6
Mystery Babylon is linked with Idolatry specifically the worship of Diana the Harlot Goddess; the Egyptians called her Ishtar and the Bible calls her the Queen of Heaven or Ashtoreth. This whoredom is what Balaam promoted in order for God to destroy Israel. Numbers 25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand. This nationalist,geopolitical,religious power is influencing the nations of the middle east (The 10 kings of the Beast). All the Kings of the Earth have went after her whoredom just like the 24,000 Israelites at Baal Peor.  This endtime nationals,geopolitical, religious power is also addressed by the Old Testament Jeremiah "the weeping prophet." The message of Jeremiah was also portrayed in the message Jesus to the Pharisees, scribes and priest of Jerusalem. Luke 11:49-52 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.  Because of their false worship and "Love of money," That generation, their worship temple, their city was destroyed with fire. God said they were guilty of the shedding of innocent blood (Abel & Prophets). The end time generation Mystery City, will also be destroyed because of lawyers that defend the shedding of innocent blood. Proverbs 6:15-19 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.  The wickedness of this nation/city/culture permeates the rulers of the world. It promotes the worship of fornication (pornography) rather than God's biblical marriage. It promotes it idolatry in its "shew signs" its pleasure seekers and love of materialism. Its concept philosophy is capitalistic on selfish-ism and promotes it and defends it with its laws of the land.  Babylon the great, the powerful, was even blessed from God himself.  Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand,... She even lifted up into the stars and skies and if fortifies her power in the sky itself God will destroy this Babylon Jeremiah 51:53 Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though she should fortify the height of her strength, yet from me shall spoilers come unto her, saith the Lord.  She is surrounded by many waters that bring in her covetousness... Jeremiah 51:13 O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. She has a great port where the merchants of the earth trade with her... Rev.18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing...  Woe to the lawyers! Woe to Ishtar the lady of harlots! |
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Post by rt on Apr 28, 2017 21:10:18 GMT -6
Thank you for sharing, rt. Who do you identify as Mystery Babylon? It's a question I continue to try to sort out myself. Hi Gary, I would say that my best guess would be Jerusalem. I know this is not the popularly held view, but based on these passages that is what I would conclude: So here you see that the "woman" is drunk with the blood of the saints and the witnesses of Jesus also here in this passage we see that "in her" was found the blood of the prophets as well: We know from other passages that this is said to be true of Jerusalem Also throughout the OT Jerusalem/ Israel is called a harlot, one passage comes to mind, but there are many more. Ezekiel 16:36-39 and 23:1-49 sounds very much like Revelation 17:16. We also know from 2 Thessalonians 2:4 that the Antichrist will declare himself God, when he seats himself in the temple calling himself God. What greater form of spiritual harlotry could there possibly be? Of course I cannot be dogmatic about it, but it makes sense to me. RT |
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 28, 2017 22:35:17 GMT -6
Whoa. RT, I can't argue with your logic. I must say, I never ever saw it that way before, but you just made some sense.
Question, though-- what are the 7 hills it sits on? Are there seven hills at Jerusalem? We know about the 7 hills of Rome. It has been pointed out to me that Rome is not the only city of 7 hills. Berlin is said to have 7 hills as well--hills of rubble bulldozed up after WWII. I do know Jerusalem is in a mountainous region.
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 28, 2017 22:41:04 GMT -6
So let me begin first by just laying out the way I see the timeline then I will show through scripture why I believe this to be true: Seals 1-4- have already been opened- the four horses. Seal 5- represents the resurrection of the dead in Christ (seal 5 and 6 happen in very close succession and are imminent) Seal 6- represents the rapture of the church, the start of the sealing of the 144,000 Seal 7- silence in heaven for "about a half hour"-represents the start of the 70th week and the first 3.5 years, the two witnesses begin their ministry, *false prophet and antichrist enter onto the prophetic world stage, begin to establish new mark of beast system. Trumpet 1- 1/3 of earth/trees burned up, all grass burned (hail and fire mixed with blood thrown to earth) Trumpet 2- 1/3 of sea turned to blood, 1/3 sea creatures killed, 1/3 ships destroyed (great burning mountain falls to earth)Trumpet 3- 1/3 fresh waters poisoned, many die. (great burning star falls to earth)Trumpet 4- 1/3 sun/moon/stars struck, 1/3 day and night darkened (these trumpets I believe will sound also very close together, and would come just before the midpoint of the 70th week, also the sealing of the 144,000 will be completed before these trumpeters sound) Trumpet 5- the first woe- bottomless pit opened, stinging locusts torment men for five months Trumpet 6- the second woe- four angels released to kill 1/3 of mankind with fire ( I believe that those who are killed may be the tribulation martyrs) *The seven thunders- this IMO represents the end of God's work among the gentiles and the start of His plan to redeem IsraelTrumpet 7- the third woe- The devil thrown down to earth, The Antichrist kills the two witnesses, commits the abomination of desolation, and unleashes his wrath toward the children of the "woman" Bowl 1- malignant sores on those who bear the mark of the beast Bowl 2- all water of the sea turned to blood, every living thing in it dies. Bowl 3- all fresh water becomes like blood Bowl 4- suns heat intensified to scorch men Bowl 5- kingdom of the "beast" darkened with a darkness that causes pain Bowl 6- Euphrates river dried up to make way for kings from the east ( Battle of Armageddon ) Bowl 7- "it is done" Babylon destroyed, huge hailstones, greatest earthquake...etc.. Return of Christ That is it. I will add explanation as time permits me. Ok, so I could see this possibly being accurate. I would like to see your detailed explanation. What about timing and identity of the first 4 horsemen? Do you see them pertaining primarily to Islam, or to other things? When did they begin? Are they consecutive, or cumulative? Do the riders represent real individuals? Do you see any correlation of the horsemen to the Daniel 7 beasts? (I've written a thread about them). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 2:40:09 GMT -6
I'm with you rt! Jerusalem included.
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Post by Gary on Apr 29, 2017 7:22:39 GMT -6
Jerusalem does make sense. Particularly "all the blood of the saints" and also that verse, I believe in Rev. 11, where Jerusalem is figuratively called "Sodom and Egypt". What I have trouble reconciling is Rev. 17 - 18 where the destruction of Babylon seems to be so complete and permanent - the sound of music never again returning and so forth, but perhaps that's a distinction not shared between the harlot Jerusalem and the faithful Jerusalem that will be built on its ruins.
Based on various Scriptures I'd say any of these or some combination of them are possible:
Jerusalem
A literal rebuilt Babylon in Iraq
New York City
Rome
The U.S. in general (post-rapture)
Saudi Arabia (specifically Mecca)
The entire false world system (political and or religious)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 7:35:58 GMT -6
Between Revelation 17 and 20 the distruction of the unholy trinity both in body and spirit. And then in chapter 21:9 and 10, we see the holy Jerusalem descending out of Heaven. The first one is gone. Physically it is Jerusalem, spiritually it is the entire false system.
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Post by BrazenLaver on Apr 29, 2017 9:14:23 GMT -6
As I followed the tentacles from the Vatican I discovered that the Jewish connection with Rome was not simply one of synergy but rather one of control. I discovered credible evidence that the Roman Catholic Church was established by crypto-Jews as a false “Christian” front for a Judaic/Babylonian religion. That religion is the core of a world conspiracy against man and God. That is not a soft conspiracy theory based upon speculation; it is the hard truth supported by authoritative evidence, which is documented in this book. Edward Hendrie April 2010  The ideology of the Corporation of the United States is controled by "Mystery Babylon." We have military bases on all the 7 mountains "Continents" of the Earth. Our military bases are very prevalent in old Babylon.  The Talmud teaches that Jews' very essence is entirely good, whereas the essence of gentiles is completely evil. Official Catholic doctrine heaps curses upon Jesus Christ and his gospel. Rampant sexual deviance of Rabbis and Priests. The College of Cardinals is the Catholic corollary to the Jewish Sanhedrin. The Pope is the Catholic corollary to the Jewish High Priest. Plans for the mark of the beast. The Catholic Mass is actually a blasphemous ceremony with occult meanings, which is based upon the secret witchcraft of the Jewish Kabbalah. The Passover meal as practiced today by the Jews is a ritual of hatred and detestation against Jesus Christ. The Catholic "Mary" is actually a heathen Ishtar goddess that the Jews called the queen of heaven, the worship of whom God admonished against through the prophet Jeremiah. Judaism is so hateful toward gentiles that Jews are officially forbidden to share with gentiles their religious doctrines. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 9:19:49 GMT -6
WOWZA!!! That's all I can say. I have always felt as if Catholicism is old Judaism, now on the otherside of the horse, they keep overshooting the saddle and cannot ride forward in the true faith. This corroborates that thinking with bonus understanding!
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Post by rt on Apr 29, 2017 14:40:55 GMT -6
Ugh, just lost a post because my dumb computer decided it was time to run an system check.
So here goes attempt number 2
So as for Mystery Babylon let's look at this passage:
John saw the Lord holding seven stars, he doesn't know what they represent. Until they are explained to him here:
You see that they were a "mystery", their meaning was hidden from John. As far as John knew they could have represented anything, or were just stars to him. But they represented something else, the angels of the churches. In the same way, when we see the term "Mystery Babylon" we need to recognize that the hidden meaning is more than what the words themselves say.
I tend to believe that there is a religious center to the worship that we know will accompany the 70th week's inhabitants of earth. The worship of the "Beast" and the "Dragon". Mystery Babylon will have a center of worship, but it is more than a place it is a system of corrupted deceptive belief.
I see it this way. Israel physically was carried off to Babylon as captives, the Holy Spirit left the temple as described by Ezekiel when the Babylonians invaded. he never came back, even when the new temple was built. Israel remains in spiritual captivity, until they recognize Christ as their messiah.
consider the following passages:
You see that "He" gives them up until the woman gives birth, this is reminiscent of the Revelation 12 passage, the child is clearly Jesus, the Messiah, but I believe also includes not just the head but the body as well, AKA the church. Isreal is given up to captivity until the rapture completes the birth of the child, both head and body. The 70th week after all is all about reconciling the nation of Israel to God.
RT
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Post by rt on Apr 29, 2017 15:02:32 GMT -6
Jerusalem does make sense. Particularly "all the blood of the saints" and also that verse, I believe in Rev. 11, where Jerusalem is figuratively called "Sodom and Egypt". What I have trouble reconciling is Rev. 17 - 18 where the destruction of Babylon seems to be so complete and permanent - the sound of music never again returning and so forth, but perhaps that's a distinction not shared between the harlot Jerusalem and the faithful Jerusalem that will be built on its ruins. Based on various Scriptures I'd say any of these or some combination of them are possible: Jerusalem A literal rebuilt Babylon in Iraq New York City Rome The U.S. in general (post-rapture) Saudi Arabia (specifically Mecca) The entire false world system (political and or religious) As for the permanent destruction of Babylon, let's look at the following passages: Multitudes rejoice saying that the smoke of Babylon's destruction rises forever. So can a physical city burn and give off literal smoke forever? I would think that the environs on the physical earth where any city once stood would be completely erased when the New earth is created. But we don't have to guess here, we know what actually burns forever, we are told in chapter 14: We need to remember that a city in God's eyes is not the brick and mortar, or the streets and houses, it is the people. If you look at Revelation 18 in this light it makes total sense. The city's inhabitants are thrown down (along with the physical destruction of the actual city and it's buildings) but the emphasis I think is that the people who made up the system will no longer be found. verse 18:23 says: A physical city cannot be guilty of sorcery, but its people can. RT |
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Post by rt on Apr 29, 2017 15:13:17 GMT -6
Whoa. RT, I can't argue with your logic. I must say, I never ever saw it that way before, but you just made some sense. Question, though-- what are the 7 hills it sits on? Are there seven hills at Jerusalem? We know about the 7 hills of Rome. It has been pointed out to me that Rome is not the only city of 7 hills. Berlin is said to have 7 hills as well--hills of rubble bulldozed up after WWII. I do know Jerusalem is in a mountainous region. Yes Jerusalem has seven hills www.askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htmBut I assume you are referring to this passage: Again we cannot necessarily look at these "hills" or "mountains" as literal geographical physicalities. The passage goes on to tell us that they represent seven Kings, which are also symbolized as heads of the beast which carries the "woman". No need to guess what the hills represent because we are told. RT |
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