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Post by venge on Jun 8, 2018 14:46:46 GMT -6
I just read on the main website the article about the restrainer being the Holy Ghost. Since I could not reply there, I will do so here.
The Restrainer being the Holy Ghost faces a few issues.
In Matthew 28:20, Christ says:
Christ never leaves us. He never leaves people who are seeking for him. He is not removed.
In John 14:16-17 we learn that Christ sends us his helper:
The Holy Spirit is with us forever. It never leaves, it is not removed.
Now take a look at Ephesians 1:13-14 The Holy Spirit is a seal on us. The 144k are also sealed of God with this Holy Spirit that is not removed. So to are people during the tribulation that repent and are marked with the Holy Spirit which cannot be removed and is forever (1 John 14)
The restrainer cannot be the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the earth if it is forever and allows those to repent and change.
We can even look to Joel 2:31-32 to see:
Even at the approaching Day of the Lord, anyone can be saved and if so, they will receive their seal of the Holy Spirit. Some may say, Joel is not prophecy, in Chapter 3 we see the Nations Judged and God says:
And in Verse 17
Why we ask?
Who attacked to make it that no more nations will go after Israel? In Chapter 2:20:
And the reason for all this was because he will correct things forever.
Four locust types all symbolizing the 4 parts of Daniels statue.
So, how could the restrainer be the Holy Spirit? It will always be forever. Your thoughts please.
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Post by fitz on Jun 8, 2018 15:53:51 GMT -6
I know many Pre-tribbers say the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth at the Rapture, but I disagree. I believe that He is taken out of the way, but not completely removed. The restraining influence of the Church, Holy Spirit indwelt believers, will be gone, and this will greatly aide in allowing evil to prosper. However, Tribulation saints will be saved just like Church Age saints and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. He will be here doing the same work He does today in believers, but He will allow evil to run rampant in those days.
Many say that the Trib Saints must "keep themselves"...but I think that's a tall order with what is coming on this earth. And, how can one be born again without the Holy Spirit?
My .02
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Post by Natalie on Jun 8, 2018 16:03:04 GMT -6
That's how I see it, too.
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Post by boraddict on Jun 8, 2018 16:03:25 GMT -6
Venge, this is the first time that I have heard of a Restrainer.
What gets restrained?
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Post by Natalie on Jun 8, 2018 16:44:43 GMT -6
It comes from 2 Thessalonians 2:6
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 4:30:49 GMT -6
Some time ago I studied the topic of the Restrainer, too, because we did some presentations and bible studies in our church for all biblical endtime interested folks. A good explanation on this can be read here:
This is how I too see the Restrainer (by and large). The Restrainer is not removed, He is taken out of the way.
But I maybe wrong also. The view of the Restrainer strongly depends on the overall endtimes model.
Time will tell and maybe very soon.
Just want to add that nobody should adamantly stick to a specific man made model or view, because this may blind us for the truth. If the things unfold in a different way than we expect, we might be caught by surprise.
Adding one more 0.02 ct....
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Post by mike on Jun 9, 2018 5:41:42 GMT -6
^^^^excellent @stephan^^^^ we could hold a view so tightly we could miss what God is doing. Love the explanation
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 9, 2018 9:51:43 GMT -6
I agree too about the restrainer being removed is not the Holy Spirit leaving, but rather what has been holding back the man of lawlessness..but it is a revealing of the man of lawlessness...For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work..even back in the day of the ministry of Paul, and only he who now restrains will so do this to when it is time that he will be revealed. The word reveal is all over the place here...meaning uncovered, made known brought to light..apokolupto..what was hidden is now made known..
Who is this revealing for? for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason (of not receiving the love) God will send upon them a deluding influence ( in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders) so that they will believe what is false, Why?
12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. And we know this equates to Wrath. and as of sons of day, the believer is not in (this) darkness:
4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. what day?
14for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. 15(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)
We all have been reading enough of scripture to know where these passages are located. And it is littered all thruout our beloved OT.. 9“To whom would He teach knowledge,
And to whom would He interpret the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just taken from the breast?
10“For He says,
‘Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there.’”
11Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
12He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
e.13So the word of the LORD to them will be,
“Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,”
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive,
15Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we have made a pact.
The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by,
For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception.”
16Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
Praise the Lord for His son, Jesus, our Redeemer!
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Post by venge on Jun 9, 2018 11:58:07 GMT -6
Sometimes I feel the The HE who letteth, let’s...that the HE is God. He allows iniquity to be present but he doesn’t allow Satan to takeover yet. Then it says until he is taken out of the way. He is removed. Can Christ be removed from the earth? I don’t think he’s ever gone but spiritually Christ could be removed if a man of sin cast himself up to be Christ and a lot of the world followed. Wouldn’t the man of sin then be removing Christ from his kingdom?
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Post by witness1 on Jun 9, 2018 18:03:27 GMT -6
In considering all options like Stephan said, I think it is worth considering that Michael could be the restrainer. I still hold that (part of) the purpose of the Great Sign was to draw our attention to Revelation 12 and that Rev 12 gives the outline of events. When you look closely at the order of things: 1) there is a great sign in the heavens (check) 2) there is another sign 3) 1/3 of the stars are cast down 4) the dragon stands before the woman 5) the male child is caught up 6) the woman flees to the wilderness for 1260 days In looking at the next section of Rev 12, it gives us more detail about this order of events. Michael fights against the dragon, defeats him so that there is no longer a place for him in heaven, and throws him down. Then he stands before the woman and we are caught up to God and His throne. I know this sounds strange, but somehow this communicates that Satan has had a place in heaven ( ??). Is it possible that Michael has been restraining Satan in heaven and is now about to cast him to the earth? I believe we see Michael as a restrainer in Daniel as well. In Job we see Satan in heaven and God asks where he has been, and he says he has been going back and forth across the earth and then goes back to heaven. Rev 12 seems pretty clear that Satan comes down in great wrath after being cast from heaven where he seems to be allowed to dwell at least part of the time. Could it be that the restrainer is Michael who has been restraining Satan in heaven but is about to kick him out? We know all of the earth is under the power of the evil one, but that doesn’t mean he lives here so to speak. Worth considering because the order of events in Rev 12 could be interpreted as Satan being cast down at least a short period of time before the rapture. Either way, I am glad to agree that the Holy Spirit will not leave the earth and will indwell all who call on Him. He will be just as gracious to the believers in the tribulation as He is to us.
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Post by boraddict on Jun 9, 2018 19:53:17 GMT -6
It has taken me some time to catch on to the subject at hand. I just realized that the bad guy Satan can not have full and complete dominion as long as Christ and the Holy Ghost dwell upon the earth in any capacity. Thus, Satan is restrained and to be set free is for God to be removed from the earth. Then Satan is free to do as he wishes: to posses at will, to indiscriminately take over bodies in absolute terror and destruction. Thus, God is the restrainer, and The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is nowhere to be found; not in the slightest anywhere upon the earth when the restrainer is removed to give Satan free reign and unrestricted dominion.
Rev. 9:6, "And in those days shall men seek death and shall not find it and shall desire to die and death shall flee from them." And why? Because they do not have control of their bodies. They are possessed with demons who have been unrestrained from doing so.
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Post by venge on Jun 10, 2018 15:48:03 GMT -6
The Holy Ghost cannot be removed if it’s forever and it dwells within the 144k. Then it remains on earth. What is hard is the first trumpet says all green grass is destroyed. That is ones walk with God. So then, if all green grass is gone....it appears there are no righteous on the earth. The Holy Spirit is still there but because righteousness isn’t there, the Holy Spirit cannot seal anyone who doesn’t want help. It never leaves though.
If the Holy Spirit is the seal for us, it’s not a restrainer. Michael protects Israel but not the world right? So then he couldn’t be the restrainer of all evil. Only Israel right?
Christ is removed from the earth when there is a falling away. Idk, more thought needs to be put in......
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Post by witness1 on Jun 10, 2018 16:13:48 GMT -6
What do you think about the idea that Michael has been restraining Satan in heaven but is about to kick him out?
Here is the note in the ESV Study Bible:
“Scholarly theories on the identity of this restrainer include the Roman Empire/emperor, the Holy Spirit, and the archangel Michael. According to Dan. 10:13, 20–21, Michael restrains satanic principalities (cf. Rev. 12:7), and in rabbinical traditions and the Septuagint of Dan. 12:1, Michael is said to “pass away” when the Antichrist pitches his tents in Judea (Dan. 11:45) just before the great tribulation begins (Dan. 12:1). The restrainer functions to make sure that the man of lawlessness is revealed (see 2 Thess. 2:3) in his time and not before.”
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Post by witness1 on Jun 10, 2018 16:16:20 GMT -6
As far as the 1st trumpet destroying all green grass, remember that there is more green grass later in the 5th trumpet. So all righteous are removed from the earth temporarily, but more come in soon after. It’s not until the end of the 6th trumpet that there is finally no one left who repents.
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Post by venge on Jun 11, 2018 3:19:23 GMT -6
As far as the 1st trumpet destroying all green grass, remember that there is more green grass later in the 5th trumpet. So all righteous are removed from the earth temporarily, but more come in soon after. It’s not until the end of the 6th trumpet that there is finally no one left who repents. With Michael: Satan was allowed in and out of heaven freely since the beginning. We only find out there will be war in heaven. We don’t know when it started. We do know Satan is kicked out at the Tribulation because he has a short time and makes war with Christ seed for 3.5 years. I would think Satan is cast out once Christ opens the sealed book in the future. Christ takes the deed of earth. He receives power and glory. Satan probably aggravated that he wants control and is kicked out. This is guessing because that part isn’t explained well yet.
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