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mankind
Oct 20, 2019 12:30:47 GMT -6
Post by Natalie on Oct 20, 2019 12:30:47 GMT -6
boraddict I moved our discussion here so as not to clog up the other thread.
You said: We can leave the Holy Spirit discussion out for now. I do want to come back and discuss what you mean by "He created Lord Jesus", but otherwise I don't disagree with what you wrote about the Holy Spirit.
But for now we will start with mankind...
I found something for you to chew on: 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being" [Gen 2:7]: the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
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mankind
Oct 21, 2019 13:08:00 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Oct 21, 2019 13:08:00 GMT -6
Thank you Natalie.
I was examining Rev. 22:6 and noticed an applicable side note to the previous thread, that Rev. 21:22 supports that both God, and Christ, are on the throne in Rev. 4:2-3 and the Holy Spirit is not. In those verses (vv. 4:2-3), the Holy Spirit is round about the throne but not specifically on the throne.
Secondly, notice the distinction in the language of the following verses that "Lord God" (KJV) is God the Father (Rev. 21:22, 22:6). This seems to indicate that in Verse 22:6 "Lord God" whom is God the Father, sent his angel whom is Christ, "to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."
Basically it shows a restatement of Rev. 1:1 as follows:
v. 22:6, "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true" (Side Note: Please notice that Christ is speaking to John in Rev. 22:6-7)
"and the Lord God of the holy prophets" (This is God of Verse 1:1)
"sent his angel to shew unto his servants" (That is, God gave unto Christ to show unto his servants. The language of Verse 1:1 is: "gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass)
"the things which must shortly be done."
As you can see, Verse 22:6 restates Verse 1:1 and the ending of Verse 1:1 is left off wherein it states Christ's response.
Here are both verses side by side:
Rev. 1:1, "The revelation of Jesus Christ" Rev. 22:6, "And he said unto me these sayings are faithful and true" (Please notice that in these beginning sections of Verses 1:1 and 22:6 that the language pertains to the Savior)
"which God gave unto him" "and the Lord God of the holy prophets" (Please notice that in these sections of Verses 1:1 and 22:6 that the language pertains to God the Father)
"to shew unto his servants" "sent his angel to shew unto his servants" (Please notice that God gave unto Christ the revelation to show unto his servants. Thus, here in Verse 22:6 the Christ is referenced as an angel)
"things which must shortly come to pass" "the things which shortly be done."
And what did Jesus do?
"and he (Jesus) sent and signified it (the revelation) by his angel unto his servant John."
As you can see, Verse 1:1 has two major parts that are 1) God's interaction with Jesus and 2) Jesus' interaction with his angel; whereas, Verse 22:6 has only the part wherein God interacts with Jesus whom is called an angel in that verse.
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Post by Natalie on Oct 21, 2019 18:11:37 GMT -6
I tend to disagree that in Rev 22 the angel that brought the message to John is Jesus. Read on farther: I, John am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant (footnote "bondservant") with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of the book. Worship God." (Rev 22:8-9) If the angel is a servant of Christ, like John, then how can the angel also be Jesus? (Side note: Jesus accepts worship. Luke 24:52 "And they worshiped Him..."; "those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God’” Matthew 14:33; Matthew 28:9 "they took hold of His feet and worshiped Him". I started a thread about Jesus here: board.unsealed.org/thread/2078/who-jesus )
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mankind
Oct 21, 2019 19:55:01 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Oct 21, 2019 19:55:01 GMT -6
You make a good point about Rev. 22:9 that the angel does not accept worship. So, in looking at Rev. 22:6-9 who are the speakers in each verse?
Clearly the angel is speaking in Verse 22:9 and John is the speaker in Verse 22:8.
Then in Rev. 22:7, Jesus is speaking, or, the angel is saying that he (the angel) comes quickly.
If it is Jesus speaking then it would suggest that he is speaking in Rev. 22:6. However, if the angel is speaking in Verse 22:7 and Verse 22:6, then the angel is saying that he (the angel) comes quickly.
So it would appear that some narrative is missing in Verses 22:6-7. At least, the King James makes it appear that way.
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mankind
Oct 21, 2019 20:10:01 GMT -6
Post by Natalie on Oct 21, 2019 20:10:01 GMT -6
I see it this way:
22:6 is the angel (using vs 1-5) 22:7 is Jesus. It goes with 22:12 22:8 is John 22:9-10 is the angel And in 22:16 Jesus is speaking of the angel
It's like a book I was reading with my kids where two people are talking but they just alternate quotes without saying who said them. You have to just know who is talking. A new speaker being indicated by a new paragraph.
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mankind
Oct 22, 2019 10:06:47 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Oct 22, 2019 10:06:47 GMT -6
Yes, I see your point. We can know the speakers by the content of what they are saying. Thus, it is easy to see that the Book of Revelation has three speakers with some lack of narrative that would explain who is speaking at any given point in the book.
Thus, the angel is speaking in Rev. 22:6, 9, and it's sister verse Rev. 19:9 (sister verse because John fell at the angel's feet in the next verse Rev. 19:10).
Please consider Rev. 14:13 that is a sister verse to Rev. 19:9. Since we have concluded that the speaker of Verse 22:6 is the angel, and the speaker of Verse 19:9 is the angel, then the speaker of Verse 14:13 must also be the angel.
In that verse (Rev. 14:13), it references the voice from heaven that links to Rev. 4:1 and Rev. 11:12 of which the speaker in these two verses is the Savior: or so I have believed to be the case.
Do you conclude the same that Verses 14:13 and 11:12 are the Savior speaking and Verse 19:9 is the angel speaking.
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mankind
Oct 22, 2019 10:48:01 GMT -6
Post by Natalie on Oct 22, 2019 10:48:01 GMT -6
Yes, I think your conclusion is correct.
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mankind
Oct 22, 2019 15:38:30 GMT -6
Post by Natalie on Oct 22, 2019 15:38:30 GMT -6
Back to your thoughts on mankind...
Jesus was with God because He is God (John 1:1), then He took on flesh (John 1:14), then ascended back to the Father (Acts 1:9)
The Bible says of man: Genesis 2:7 "then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature." This is the beginning of mankind.
The verse in my original post ( 1 Corinthians 15:45-49) says that the natural comes first and then the spiritual. Adam came from the dust of the earth, but Jesus came from heaven. We also are first in the likeness of Adam, but then through faith are in the likeness of Jesus. We are not first heavenly beings. The Bible does speak of heavenly beings. They may appear to humans (like the angels at the empty tomb), but they don't become humans.
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mankind
Oct 22, 2019 20:40:31 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Oct 22, 2019 20:40:31 GMT -6
Yes. The only defense that I have is that God existed before the beginning; logically speaking that is. Because, to God there is no beginning and no end except to reference those two locations in time so that we can understand his omnipotence. Not to minimize the Savior's position mind you, but to find some defense for my assumption; that God existed before Christ, and secondly, that God created Christ. I am still looking for the evidence in scripture. We know that Christ is the beginning and the ending (Rev. 1:8), so the question might find support in the use of the words beginning and ending. If God whom was and is forever created Christ then the Savior has a beginning and an ending as an eternal round that is like the Father. That is, Christ is forever like the Father but having a beginning whereas the Father has no beginning. That is, at some point Christ began even if that beginning was in a thought that God has had forever. Sorry about the drawn out clarification but if God has always existed and Christ has always existed with God then we likewise have always existed with God because he has always known us. It is we whom are learning to know him. However, unlike us, Christ has always known God and consequently has always been with the Father. Nevertheless, as Jesus has said, all honor goes to the Father; and, our goal is to know God (through Christ's teachings). It may be the case that my position is impossible to support via scripture. The next subject that is mankind relates to the first if the same logic assumptions are followed. Yet, as you have pointed out, the scriptural evidence is in your corner. With regard to the speakers in the Book of Revelation, the speakers of Rev. 10:8 are John and then the Savior. Secondly, the speakers of Rev. 10:9 are John and then the angel.
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mankind
Oct 22, 2019 21:01:00 GMT -6
Post by Natalie on Oct 22, 2019 21:01:00 GMT -6
consider this... Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of host: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god."
Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev 22:13 (Which we determined above was Jesus speaking) "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." I think that it's three ways of saying the same thing. Jesus is saying that He is God. It's not that He has a beginning and an end, but that He IS the beginning and the end. There is nothing without Him. It's not that He is WITH God; He IS God. I do not understand completely how it works, but Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Spirit is God. None of them are created beings.
John 1:1;14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
And because God is all-knowing, He can know everything before anything was even created. The Bible tells us that He dwells in eternity (Isaiah 57:15); time is not the same for Him. So for Him to know us before we were born does not mean that we dwell in heaven with Him before receiving a mortal body. He knows us because He is outside of time and knows the beginning from the end (Isaiah 46:10).
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mankind
Oct 23, 2019 10:36:01 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Oct 23, 2019 10:36:01 GMT -6
Natalie, your evidence is indisputable.
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mankind
Oct 23, 2019 10:51:31 GMT -6
Post by Natalie on Oct 23, 2019 10:51:31 GMT -6
What will you now do with the evidence? (You don't necessarily have to answer, just trying to make you think )
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Post by boraddict on Oct 23, 2019 20:29:11 GMT -6
I am always in a state of revision. What I liked most about our conversation is the identity of the speakers in the Book of Revelation.
Until now I held that "the speaker from heaven" throughout the Book of Revelation was Christ. However, given the interplay between the speakers in Rev. 22:6-9 (per our conversation about these verses) and the subsequent linking verses like Rev. 19:9-10, 14:15, etc., then there are two speakers from heaven that are Christ and the angel.
After I was able to see this then I bounced over to Rev. 18:4 and is was so obvious. This verse states" And I heard another voice from heaven" which means that one voice from heaven had already been identified and it is the angel in Rev. 18:1 wherein the angel that is a voice from heaven "came down from heaven." Thus, the three speakers in Chapter 18 are as follows:
Rev. 18:1, John is the speaker Rev. 18:2, John and the angel are the speakers Rev. 18:3, the angel is the speaker Rev. 18:4, John and Jesus are the speakers Rev. 18:5-15, Jesus is the speaker Rev. 18: 16-20, John is the speaker Rev. 18: 21, John and the angel are the speakers Rev. 18:22-23, the angel is the speaker Rev. 18:24, John is the speaker
Look at the breakdown of the chapter; very nice.
There is a method to my madness which is the connection between the speakers and the subject matter of this thread. Although the connection is not found in Chapter 18 (at least I do not see it), then the connection may be in Chapter 12.
To the question about what I will do with the proof that you presented about Christ and God the Father, the one thing that stood out is the idea that Christ was not created. I like the evidence that you presented and will at some point investigate that further. It is easy for me to move between assumptions but proof does put nails in the wall.
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mankind
Oct 24, 2019 11:33:22 GMT -6
Post by boraddict on Oct 24, 2019 11:33:22 GMT -6
Notice from my previous posting the chiasmus of the speakers in Chapter 18.
Rev. 18:1, John is the speaker Rev. 18:2, John and the angel are the speakers Rev. 18:3, the angel is the speaker Rev. 18:4, John and Jesus are the speakers Rev. 18:5-15, Jesus is the speaker Rev. 18: 16-20, John is the speaker Rev. 18: 21, John and the angel are the speakers Rev. 18:22-23, the angel is the speaker Rev. 18:24, John is the speaker
In the 1st parallel John is the speaker (vv. 18:1 to 18:24) In the 2nd parallel John and the angel and then the angel are the speakers (vv. 18:2 to 18:22-23) In the 3rd parallel the angel and then John and the angel are the speakers (vv. 18:3 to 18:21) In the 4th parallel John and Jesus and then John and the angel are the speakers (vv. 18:4 to 18:16-20) In the center and emphasis of the chapter Lord Jesus is the speaker (vv. 18:5-15)
The following are the speakers of Chapter 12
Rev. 12:1-9, John is the speaker Rev. 12:10, John and the angel are the speakers Rev. 12:11-12, the angel is the speaker Rev. 12:13-17, John is the speaker
In Chapter 12 both Verse 12:10 as well as Verses 12:11-12 share the central position of the chapter. Of course the common speaker of this central position is the angel and it follows that his words in this chapter are the central emphasis thereof.
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mankind
Oct 24, 2019 11:51:25 GMT -6
Post by Natalie on Oct 24, 2019 11:51:25 GMT -6
I will try and look at this soon.
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